Is God a Narcissist in Calvinism ?

[e v e]

This from AI

The idea that Calvinism makes God a narcissist creating vessels of wrath for destruction is a common criticism, stemming from the doctrine of predestination, where God sovereignly chooses some for salvation (vessels of mercy) and leaves others to their sin (vessels of wrath) to display His justice and glory. While Calvinists assert God's glory requires revealing His attributes, including wrath, through the damned (Romans 9), critics argue this portrays God as unjust, tyrannical, or even the author of evil, contrasting it with Jesus's humble, other-directed nature. Defenders counter that God's glory isn't selfish narcissism but His inherent, perfect nature, and that His decree of reprobation is a passive "passing over," not an active creation of evil, serving His greater good.

The Criticism: God as Narcissist/Tyrant

• Rigging the Game: Critics suggest God preordains everything, rigging history so people have no real choice, all to praise Himself, making Him seem like a self-centered "It's all about me" figure.
• Author of Evil: Some argue that by ordaining sin and damnation, God becomes the ultimate cause of evil, a "moral monster" or "tyrant".
• Unjust Damnation: How can God be just punishing those He foreordained for destruction, especially when He knew they'd end up damned but created them anyway

The Core Tension

• God's Character vs. Human Understanding: The debate hinges on whether God's sovereign plan, focused on His glory, aligns with human concepts of justice, love, and fairness, with differing views on whether God causes sin or merely permits it for His higher purposes

Arguments that Calvinism Portrays a Narcissistic God

Critics argue that the God described in Calvinist theology meets the criteria for Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) as defined by the DSM-5.

• Lack of Empathy: Critics claim that creating individuals specifically for destruction ("vessels of wrath") demonstrates a lack of empathy, treating humans as mere objects to "show off" divine power.
• Grandiose Self-Importance: The biblical God's insistence on constant praise and the belief that the entire universe exists solely for His glory are seen by skeptics as hallmarks of grandiosity and an "appetite for applause".
• Human-centric Narcissism: Some philosophers argue that any concept of God is inherently narcissistic because it presumes that an all-powerful creator would be "petty" enough to care about minute human behaviors

The question of whether creating "vessels of wrath" is unloving is a central conflict in Christian theology, with different traditions offering radically different interpretations.

1. The Argument for It Being Unloving
Critics argue that if God creates individuals knowing and decreeing their eternal destruction for His own glory, it contradicts the biblical assertion that "God is love" (1 John 4:8).

• Lack of Redemptive Purpose: Some theologians argue that wrath and judgment can only be seen as "loving" if they serve a redemptive or corrective purpose; eternal destruction without hope for restoration appears purely punitive.
• Predestined Despair: Critics of "double predestination" (the idea that God actively chooses who to damn) argue it makes the gospel "bad news" for the majority of humanity, portraying God as a deterministic "puppet master" rather than a loving father.

lets discuss

the idea of hell is already wrong in many ways.

command theory helps here, which says God acts out of His nature.

Divine command theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

God's nature is intrinsically Good, His very nature containing no evil when He asks things of us or speaks to us.

He has no flesh mind. His Good and His Nature are not within the 'good and evil' dichotomy we see in the fallen type nature we suffer.

 

[e v e]

That wiki link includes too many side issues but basically what God commands is always the best and Good and of His very nature.

Some say in the OT sodom and gomorrah prove otherwise, such as marion hating God in the OT.

But sodom and gomorrah is 'to b', prophetic, of when the satanic realm is destroyed, and we are restored to paradise, which will all be very Good.... and reflects the demon nations, not earthly historical cities.

Yes the demons find destruction of their cities an evil prospect but they are God's and our enemy who brought about the fall... which event they found to be good according to their lesser 'nature.'

ethics implies a need to govern impulses. God doesn't need to govern Himself that way as His nature is Perfect, Love, Good. There is no impulse to rein in.

 

[e v e]

When God is angry, it is not an expression of a 'bad mood', it's because He loves and wants only good for us. As such His anger does not reflect double mindedness or a change of Nature, for all He does and commands is Exactly right.

The remnant as concept doesn't mean the rest of jacob goes to hell nonsense. But that's another topic though.

 

[e v e]

In extension command theory means that :
(points)

He created our home once. It was perfect and He spoke it and it needs no 'redoing'. Paradise will be restored. He does not need a new earth, but all His land for us, eden, restored (us back in it!) and this confirms His Original command, what He spoke, which He declared Good.

He is love and Will restore His souls to Him , every single one satan stole!, and restore us to our promised land (eden). He does not fail and give up on souls out of ego.

The very very very few not restored willfully choose that. God does not force us. The point is that those created by Him are of Him with His signature on us... any evil in us is not from Him. the soul therefore cannot be depraved in its very nature since its of Him. no tulip.

and many other points but too many to name.

 

[e v e]

God does not condemn His own sons and daughters

only the enemy realm, in enmity to us,
angers Him... because they hurt us.
He hates esau!

 

[Rockerduck]

the idea of hell is already wrong in many ways.

command theory helps here, which says God acts out of His nature.

Divine command theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

God's nature is intrinsically Good, His very nature containing no evil when He asks things of us or speaks to us.

He has no flesh mind. His Good and His Nature are not within the 'good and evil' dichotomy we see in the fallen type nature we suffer.

There is a Hell or you can call it what you want, because it is a fire pitted, flaming black landscape. I've seen it. I told God I never wanted to even see Hell, but I needed to see it because so many are denying Hell's existence. I can honestly tell you it is real. People send themselves to Hell, God doesn't do it.

 

[e v e]

There is a Hell or you can call it what you want, because it is a fire pitted, flaming black landscape. I've seen it. I told God I never wanted to even see Hell, but I needed to see it because so many are denying Hell's existence. I can honestly tell you it is real. People send themselves to Hell, God doesn't do it.

with all due respect, i did not say there is no hellfire etc. i said ideas about it were wrong. thank you for understanding.

 

[Presby02]

You mean Barnes?

7. When the morning-stars. There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here, though some have thought that the stars literally are referred to, and that they seemed to unite in a chorus of praise when another world was added to their number. The Vulgate renders it, astra matutina, morning-stars; the LXX. Ὅτε ἐγενήθηναι ἄστρα—when the stars were made; the Chaldee, “the stars of the zephyr,” or morning—כוכבי צפר. The comparison of a prince, a monarch, or an angel, with a star, is not uncommon; comp. Notes on Isa. 14:12. The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Job (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1847), 194.

I would say

Job 38:7 (NASB 95) — 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The singing of the Stars and action of the sons of God in a related response to God's creation.
.

Yes. Who is your source? Why does He get tge final say? Because he agrees with you or vice versa?

 

[TomL]

Yes. Who is your source? Why does He get tge final say? Because he agrees with you or vice versa?

You never heard of the Calvinist Albert Barnes?


7. When the morning-stars. There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here, though some have thought that the stars literally are referred to, and that they seemed to unite in a chorus of praise when another world was added to their number. The Vulgate renders it, astra matutina, morning-stars; the LXX. Ὅτε ἐγενήθηναι ἄστρα—when the stars were made; the Chaldee, “the stars of the zephyr,” or morning—כוכבי צפר. The comparison of a prince, a monarch, or an angel, with a star, is not uncommon; comp. Notes on Isa. 14:12. The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Job (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1847), 194.

I would say

Job 38:7 (NASB 95) — 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The singing of the Stars and action of the sons of God in a related response to God's creation.

 

[e v e]

You never heard of the Calvinist Albert Barnes?


7. When the morning-stars. There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here, though some have thought that the stars literally are referred to, and that they seemed to unite in a chorus of praise when another world was added to their number. The Vulgate renders it, astra matutina, morning-stars; the LXX. Ὅτε ἐγενήθηναι ἄστρα—when the stars were made; the Chaldee, “the stars of the zephyr,” or morning—כוכבי צפר. The comparison of a prince, a monarch, or an angel, with a star, is not uncommon; comp. Notes on Isa. 14:12. The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Job (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1847), 194.

I would say

Job 38:7 (NASB 95) — 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The singing of the Stars and action of the sons of God in a related response to God's creation.

the scepter and its star as what the evil ones wanted and for which they made eden to fall ;(

 

[TomL]

the scepter and its star as what the evil ones wanted and for which they made eden to fall ;(

Note stars are plural and sing.

The singing of the stars and action of the sons of God are in a related response to God's creation.

 

[e v e]

Note stars are plural and sing.

The singing of the stars and action of the sons of God are in a related response to God's creation.

yes the eden girls (words) just like God's Feminine spirit our mother...

all the girls are in her image
and all the males are in His

all of us as their sons and daughters
we were , in eden

and the 7 torches also girls.

males are speech
girls are the words.

Christ is He and His word inside Him

they are one

in the other reality (not here in this dungeon)

 

[e v e]

stars can be false mystery babylon ones
but in eden context they are
His lovely sons and daughters
who stepped right out
of His feminine spirit when He spoke her.

 

[e v e]

we are just used to this earthly prison and interpret everything wrongly
thanks to esau corrupting the scroll

 

[TomL]

yes the eden girls (words) just like God's Feminine spirit our mother...

all the girls are in her image
and all the males are in His

all of us as their sons and daughters
we were , in eden

and the 7 torches also girls.

males are speech
girls are the words.

Christ is He and His word inside Him

they are one

in the other reality (not here in this dungeon)

Luke 4:18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed,
John 14:16–17 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:7–8 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
John 16:13–14 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Rom 8:16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:26–27In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
1 Cor 12:11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

 

[e v e]

Luke 4:18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed,
John 14:16–17 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:7–8 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
John 16:13–14 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Rom 8:16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:26–27In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
1 Cor 12:11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Thank you for replying.

 

[TomL]

Thank you for replying.

You are welcome

Luke 4:18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent Me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovery of sight to the blind, To set free those who are oppressed,
John 14:16–17 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
John 16:7–8 But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
John 16:13–14 But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.
Rom 8:16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:26–27In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
1 Cor 12:11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

 

[Presby02]

You never heard of the Calvinist Albert Barnes?


7. When the morning-stars. There can be little doubt that angelic beings are intended here, though some have thought that the stars literally are referred to, and that they seemed to unite in a chorus of praise when another world was added to their number. The Vulgate renders it, astra matutina, morning-stars; the LXX. Ὅτε ἐγενήθηναι ἄστρα—when the stars were made; the Chaldee, “the stars of the zephyr,” or morning—כוכבי צפר. The comparison of a prince, a monarch, or an angel, with a star, is not uncommon; comp. Notes on Isa. 14:12. The expression “the morning-stars” is used on account of the beauty of the principal star which, at certain seasons of the year, leads on the morning. It is applied naturally to those angelic beings that are of distinguished glory and rank in heaven. That it refers to the angels, seems to be evident from the connection; and this interpretation is demanded in order to correspond with the phrase “sons of God” in the other member of the verse.

Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Job (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1847), 194.

I would say

Job 38:7 (NASB 95) — 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The singing of the Stars and action of the sons of God in a related response to God's creation.

What about him? Why does He get the final say?

Ever hear of the appeal to authority fallacy? Look it up.

 

[TomL]

What about him? Why does He get the final say?

Ever hear of the appeal to authority fallacy? Look it up.

Yes, I have heard of authority fallacy, but that belongs to the Calvinists who push a theology contrary to verse after verse of scripture.

I would say

Job 38:7 (NASB 95) — 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The singing of the stars and action of the sons of God are related responses to God's creation.

 

[Presby02]

Yes, I have heard of authority fallacy, but that belongs to the Calvinists who push a theology contrary to verse after verse of scripture.

I would say

Job 38:7 (NASB 95) — 7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The singing of the stars and action of the sons of God are related responses to God's creation.

Its called the appeal to authority fallacy. LOL You know, the fallacy you committed.

It has nothing to do with pushing a theology.

No one cares what you say, its what you can prove.