Is God a Narcissist in Calvinism ?

civic said:
You have no specific verses that say God does not know all the future as settled. I have none that specifically says He knows all the possibilities of the future exhaustively. God test man many times in scripture and gives them the option of 2 possibilities whether they choose to obey or disobey. God has not locked in mans choices and decision making as taught by the determinist/calvinist.

So your yes or no question doesn't answer the biblical narrative. God knows reality as it is hence God is Omniscient. Since God over and over gives mankind choices there are 2 paths/roads they can go down depending upon their decisions. God over and over said He would do a certain thing if they did x,y,z yet withheld the disaster from happening many times. Other times the calamity happened.

Fulfilled prophecy is another example of Gods omniscience. But not everything that happens in history or the future is predetermined like prophecy.

You put God into a nice little deterministic box. God is much more than that little box. The fact that God gives man choices to make, roads to go down that can have various outcomes shows the future in not determined/fixed as taught by the calvinist.

I can still hold to God being all knowing just not in the same sense as you believe.

hope this helps !!!
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He declares the end from the beginning.

God knows reality but not the future right? Thats not omniscient. Now your trying to change the definition. Typical.

You cannot claim He is all knowing yet some things He does not know. LOL civic is a Open Theist. Slippery out there eh?

So you deny God's omniscience. Did Christ love you at the cross? Did He know you would exist?
 
Presby02 said:
He declares the end from the beginning.

God knows reality but not the future right? Thats not omniscient. Now your trying to change the definition. Typical.

You cannot claim He is all knowing yet some things He does not know. LOL civic is a Open Theist. Slippery out there eh?

So you deny God's omniscience. Did Christ love you at the cross? Did He know you would exist?
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does scripture say God declares the end from the beginning with everything ?
 
Presby02 said:
He declares the end from the beginning.
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There is a big difference between knowing everything that will happen and causing everything to happen, determinism.

If that is Gods sovereignty rightly defined then God causes men to do evil.
James 1:13,
- let no man say when he is tempted I am tempted of God, for God cannot be tempted with evil neither tempteth He any man

James says God does not cause, produce or entice evil

Evil is not a created substance.
Evil originates when mankind who have been given free moral agency choose to disobey Gods commands.

God permits evil for a time but He is not the cause of it.

Isaiah 45:7,
- I(God) make peace and create evil

Hebrew word means,
Calamity
Disaster
Judgment

Any English Bibles that use the word evil is poor choice of English word.
The Hebrew does not mean God creates evil.
 
Titus said:
There is a big difference between knowing everything that will happen and causing everything to happen, determinism.

If that is Gods sovereignty rightly defined then God causes men to do evil.
James 1:13,
- let no man say when he is tempted I am tempted of God, for God cannot be tempted with evil neither tempteth He any man

James says God does not cause, produce or entice evil

Evil is not a created substance.
Evil originates when mankind who have been given free moral agency choose to disobey Gods commands.

God permits evil for a time but He is not the cause of it.

Isaiah 45:7,
- I(God) make peace and create evil

Hebrew word means,
Calamity
Disaster
Judgment

Any English Bibles that use the word evil is poor choice of English word.
The Hebrew does not mean God creates evil.
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Depends on the cause your referring to. He is the sufficient cause but not the efficient cause.

And who created mankind knowing full well what would occur? Or was evil a creative oopsie?
 
Titus said:
Does God create evil?
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No.


We must remember what the bible teaches not the traditions of men and their doctrines. God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7, 8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!
 
Presby02 said:
So He loved you at the cross right?

He knew of you? How so? What did He know?
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Its takes two to have a relationship and know a person, to know each other. No other person means no other relationship. :)

its as simple as that- foreknowing is not relationship. you are conflating the two.
 
civic said:
Its takes two to have a relationship and know a person, to know each other. No other person means no other relationship. :)

its as simple as that- foreknowing is not relationship. you are conflating the two.
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What did He know about you? Not know in the relationship sense.

I did not ask about knowing you personally. I asked if He knew of you and loved you at the cross?
 
civic said:
Its takes two to have a relationship and know a person, to know each other. No other person means no other relationship. :)

its as simple as that- foreknowing is not relationship. you are conflating the two.
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(y) (y)
 
Titus said:
The Bible teaches God cannot be evil nor does He create evil.
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True, God cannot BE EVIL [Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil can dwell with You.] and God does not CREATE EVIL [Mark 7:21-22 "For from within, out of the hearts of people, come the evil thoughts, acts of sexual immorality, thefts, murders, acts of adultery, deeds of greed, wickedness, deceit, indecent behavior, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness."], however ...


Genesis 2:9 [NASB] Out of the ground the LORD God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life [was] also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
  • God created the TREE of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:22 [NASB] Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take [fruit] also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
  • God KNOWS evil.

Genesis 50:20 [NASB] "As for you, you meant evil against me, [but] God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to keep many people alive."
  • God 'means' evil for good.

... therefore, God does not sit on the sidelines helplessly wringing his hands at EVIL God is powerless to either stop or control.
  • Proverbs 16:4 [NASB] The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil.
 
atpollard said:
Proverbs 16:4 [NASB] The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil
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What is your understanding of this verse?
Do you believe the wicked are ordained by God to be wicked? Does God create their nature to be immoral?
 
Titus said:
What is your understanding of this verse?
Do you believe the wicked are ordained by God to be wicked? Does God create their nature to be immoral?
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No, God does not NEED to create or compel men to be evil:
  • [Genesis 8:21] "for the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth"
  • [John 3:19-20] "people loved the darkness rather than the Light" ... "everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light".

God only needs to PERMIT IT ... to free them to follow their desires:
  • [Romans 1:18] "people who suppress the truth"
  • [Romans 1:24] "Therefore God gave them up to ... their hearts"
  • [Romans 1:26] "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions"
  • [Romans 1:28] "God gave them up to a depraved mind"

The tricky part is ALL start out there ...
  • [Ephesians 2:1-3] "And you were dead in your offenses and sins, in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest."
... so why are ANY saved?
(but that moves beyond the verse you asked about and your question) ;)
 
Titus said:
What is your understanding of this verse?
Do you believe the wicked are ordained by God to be wicked? Does God create their nature to be immoral?
Click to expand...

atpollard said:
No, God does not NEED to create or compel men to be evil:
Click to expand...
atpollard said:
God only needs to PERMIT IT ... to free them to follow their desires:
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atpollard said:
The tricky part is ALL start out there
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Why ? Why do men start out evil?
Did each individual baby born give themselves an evil nature by freewill choice?
Or Did God permit them to be born evil without the new born babies choice in the matter?

Who ultimately is at fault for a new born babies total inability to have a upright nature?
Ecclesiastes 7:29,
- Truly this only have I found that God made man
upright but they(plural meaning more than Adam) have sought out many schemes

Definition of upright:
Straight
Right
Morally correct
Just
In proper alignment
Honest, straight forward

In this verse I quoted.
Did mankind start out totally wicked?
Did they(men) begin life crooked/perverse?
Or did God make men upright and they chose to seek out sin?
atpollard said:
The tricky part is ALL start out there ...
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atpollard said:
were by nature children of wrath
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Who's nature?
Solomon said he has only observed ONE characteristic of mankind.
Throughout Ecclesiastes, Solomon emphasizes,
His wisdom
His investigation of life
His searching for meaning, righteousness and explanations

This  only means
Of all the complex questions I've examined one thing stands out as certainly undoubtedly true,
A settled foundational conclusion,
- truly this only I have found: that God made  man upright

God made men upright.
God did not create man sinful.

The context makes it known Solomon is not speaking about Adam.
Solomon is speaking of mankind. The Hebrew word used man is commonly used for humankind.

The plural pronoun they immediately follows.

Solomon said after all my searching one thing is absolutely clear, God created humans morally upright but humans chose to become crooked.

Ephesians 2:1-3 is not speaking of being born with sinful natures.
Babies are not the audience.
Babies are never mentioned.
Men who have by free will choosen to follow after their sinful desires.

- and you He made alive who were dead in tresspasses and sins
in which you once walked according to the course of this world according to the prince of the power of the air the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we once conducted ourselves in the desires of the  flesh fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others

The Greek does not say sinful nature.
By nature does not mean born guilty.
By nature means repeated habitual practice. They become children of wrath by choosing to habitually practice sin. This repeated sinful lifestyle becomes their nature.
Just as a person who takes a sip of alcohol is not a alcoholic.
But if one lives in the lifestyle of habitual drinking. His nature becomes a drunkard.

Calvinist do not know this Greek usage.
Unfortunately they refuse to even acknowledge its existence.

So why do men start out evil?
Does the baby choose this by freewill?
Or Does God create them this way?
atpollard said:
No, God does not NEED to create or compel men to be evil
Click to expand...
atpollard said:
God only needs to PERMIT IT ... to free them to follow their desires:
Click to expand...
How is the baby free to follow its desires if it did not choose to be born totally unable to desire good?
Did God permit it by decreeing it?
 

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