Is anyone else a Seer?

[dwight92070]

1 Timothy 2:9-15
"Likewise I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by mean of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
"But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

When a pastor, such as Jack Hayford, directly contradicts Paul's words here - and tells us that it's okay for women to teach in the assembly of believers, should we listen to him or to Paul?

 

[charismaticlady]

1 Timothy 2:9-15
"Likewise I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by mean of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness.
"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
"For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
"But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint."

When a pastor, such as Jack Hayford, directly contradicts Paul's words here - and tells us that it's okay for women to teach in the assembly of believers, should we listen to him or to Paul?

Personally, I asked God because the one thing I didn't want to do was to sin. God answered me. It didn't have anything to do with Pastor Jack, though he is my spiritual father and anointed me with oil for the office of Teacher. Not only that but when the Holy Spirit has taught me something that Pastor Jack didn't teach, I believe the Holy Spirit and always will. Any man that doesn't want to learn from me can put me on ignore and remain ignorant, but this forum site is for everyone, not just men as some seem to think.

 

[dwight92070]

So God's "answer" contradicts His word? You are greatly deceived. Why would I or anyone want to learn anything from someone who is deceived?
I will not be ignorant. I know God and His word. And you are blatantly violating it.

 

[charismaticlady]

So God's "answer" contradicts His word? You are greatly deceived. Why would I or anyone want to learn anything from someone who is deceived?
I will not be ignorant. I know God and His word. And you are blatantly violating it.

Paul had his own opinions that he also wrote that were not inspired. God knows the difference and will tell you if you ask Him.

 

[360watt]

Paul’s writings are scripture.. God breathed. That's the claim the Bible makes for Paul’s writings.

One thing about women keeping silent in the church..is the context is about speaking out of turn and speaking in tongues.

So it isn't about not speaking at all..but about order and decency and no confusion.

It is still saying for woman not to hold the position of pastor/bishop, and ask their hubby at home about disputations, but isn't about not speaking at all.

 

[charismaticlady]

Paul’s writings are scripture.. God breathed. That's the claim the Bible makes for Paul’s writings.

One thing about women keeping silent in the church..is the context is about speaking out of turn and speaking in tongues.

So it isn't about not speaking at all..but about order and decency and no confusion.

It is still saying for woman not to hold the position of pastor/bishop, and ask their hubby at home about disputations, but isn't about not speaking at all.

Yes they are for the most part. How many on this forum are divorced and remarried? I am divorced, or I should say, he divorced me to marry the wife of his best friend, causing two divorces, ours and theirs, but my husband is still the last man I allowed to even kiss me. I didn't divorce him and never signed the divorce papers nor went to court even though he lied about assets in them to not pay anything to me. In God's eyes, he was not free and didn't have "cause," per the words of Jesus in Matthew 19.

It is when Paul says that he, himself, is giving his opinion. For instance, 1 Corinthians 7.

8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10 Now to the married I command, yet not I but the Lord: A wife is not to depart from her husband. 11 But even if she does depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband. And a husband is not to divorce his wife.
12 But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. 15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

 

[dwight92070]

Paul’s writings are scripture.. God breathed. That's the claim the Bible makes for Paul’s writings.

One thing about women keeping silent in the church..is the context is about speaking out of turn and speaking in tongues.

So it isn't about not speaking at all..but about order and decency and no confusion.

It is still saying for woman not to hold the position of pastor/bishop, and ask their hubby at home about disputations, but isn't about not speaking at all.

It's amazing how easily you can just dismiss and reinterpret Paul's words. You imply that it's okay for women to speak in church, if they do it - in turn, and decently, without confusion. So, as long as they speak in turn, without confusion, they are free to disobey Paul's instruction? You also say that they can't give a message in tongues, which Paul does not say here either. Why did you add that to Paul's words? So please explain what women are free to speak about in church, according to your understanding.

 

[360watt]

It's amazing how easily you can just dismiss and reinterpret Paul's words. You imply that it's okay for women to speak in church, if they do it - in turn, and decently, without confusion. So, as long as they speak in turn, without confusion, they are free to disobey Paul's instruction? You also say that they can't give a message in tongues, which Paul does not say here either. Why did you add that to Paul's words? So please explain what women are free to speak about in church, according to your understanding.

Well, I don't mean they can disobey Paul's instructions, but mainly that in this context.. not permitting to speak, doesn't mean can't speak at all.

Fuller context about the tongues and also prophecy that is associated with speaking in church:

1 Corinthians 14:26-35 KJV - 6 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

So the context reveals the admonishing that women keeping silent is about prophecy, tongues in this chapter.

The Corinthians church were doing things out of order, in confusion, with an influence of previous paganism in their church.

This is the background of Paul saying for woman to be silent.

 

[dwight92070]

Well, I don't mean they can disobey Paul's instructions, but mainly that in this context.. not permitting to speak, doesn't mean can't speak at all.

Fuller context about the tongues and also prophecy that is associated with speaking in church:

1 Corinthians 14:26-35 KJV - 6 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

So the context reveals the admonishing that women keeping silent is about prophecy, tongues in this chapter.

The Corinthians church were doing things out of order, in confusion, with an influence of previous paganism in their church.

This is the background of Paul saying for woman to be silent.

So, your understanding is that women are not allowed to prophesy or speak in tongues. Yet elsewhere Paul said they can prophesy and/or pray with their head covered. I see nowhere in scripture where women are not allowed to prophesy or speak in tongues, with an interpreter.

 

[360watt]

So, your understanding is that women are not allowed to prophesy or speak in tongues. Yet elsewhere Paul said they can prophesy and/or pray with their head covered. I see nowhere in scripture where women are not allowed to prophesy or speak in tongues, with an interpreter.

We can look at the other scripture you mean

 

[Quintus5]

Sorry. don't know how far back I'd have to look, but what is the second sin? Are you speaking of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

 

[charismaticlady]

Sorry. don't know how far back I'd have to look, but what is the second sin? Are you speaking of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

Are you talking to me and the two types of sin? If so, there is mortal sin - a sin unto death, where in the Old Testament if someone committed something we would deem small like picking up sticks on the Sabbath, they were stoned to death. It is lawless sin. 1 John 3:4-5 - that chapter is about the sins unto death - sinning against God's LAW.

The lesser type of sins were covered in the OT by a sacrifice. Read Numbers 15:22-36. And in the NT look at 2 Peter 1:5-11, and John 15:1-4 and 1 John 1:7. The lesser sins are SINS NOT UNTO DEATH and are cleansed as we continue to walk in the Spirit and as Jesus finishes His work in us. It is not by our power, but all His. If you need correcting, Jesus is quick to speak to your conscience. All you need to do is obey your own conscience, 1 John 3:21-24. Simple. "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."

 

[Quintus5]

Are you talking to me and the two types of sin? If so, there is mortal sin - a sin unto death, where in the Old Testament if someone committed something we would deem small like picking up sticks on the Sabbath, they were stoned to death. It is lawless sin. 1 John 3:4-5 - that chapter is about the sins unto death - sinning against God's LAW.

The lesser type of sins were covered in the OT by a sacrifice. Read Numbers 15:22-36. And in the NT look at 2 Peter 1:5-11, and John 15:1-4 and 1 John 1:7. The lesser sins are SINS NOT UNTO DEATH and are cleansed as we continue to walk in the Spirit and as Jesus finishes His work in us. It is not by our power, but all His. If you need correcting, Jesus is quick to speak to your conscience. All you need to do is obey your own conscience, 1 John 3:21-24. Simple. "My yoke is easy and my burden is light."

ok, so you sin but they are not unto death, so they get cleaned along the way (without confessing). Aren't we supposed to confess our sins? Do you tell the Lord you are sorry for venial sins? and do you repeat them?
The sacrifice was made for us, but we still need to confess. Jesus is the Lamb
Leviticus 5:5–6 provides clear instruction on this practice:

“When anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin.”

 

[Peterlag]

ok, so you sin but they are not unto death, so they get cleaned along the way (without confessing). Aren't we supposed to confess our sins? Do you tell the Lord you are sorry for venial sins? and do you repeat them?
The sacrifice was made for us, but we still need to confess. Jesus is the Lamb
Leviticus 5:5–6 provides clear instruction on this practice:

Most Christians still believe the spirit of Christ makes their flesh spiritual. And this is why they believe their sins are forgiven when they are born again up to that point, but must run to God to confess and repent their new sins every time they sin after becoming a Christian. The belief is that you will either be lost, or on your way to hell, or at the very least God will not fellowship with you, and He certainly will not answer your prayers if you are found with an unconfessed sin. Such a concept would mean everybody would be on their way to hell because there is not a person on this earth who does not have either a known or an unknown unconfessed sin. Now if this new sin just means the loss of a relationship with God, which would include unanswered prayers. Then God would not have a single person on this earth qualified to receive an answer to prayer or to be able to fellowship with Him.

 

[360watt]

There is no sin uncovered when someone is converted by Jesus.

John 5:24.. they have everlasting life. Not might..not could..they do have it.

Most of the book of John shows this.

The consequences for sin for the believer are discipline and rebuke. Not loss of eternal life.

Think about whether a verse is about discipline for a believer in daily service to God or an unbeliever who hasn't believed. That's the key to understanding alot of verses.

'Fall away' may not mean 'lose eternal life'

'Cut off' may not mean lose eternal life.

 

[Peterlag]

There is no sin uncovered when someone is converted by Jesus.

John 5:24.. they have everlasting life. Not might..not could..they do have it.

Most of the book of John shows this.

The consequences for sin for the believer are discipline and rebuke. Not loss of eternal life.

Think about whether a verse is about discipline for a believer in daily service to God or an unbeliever who hasn't believed. That's the key to understanding alot of verses.

'Fall away' may not mean 'lose eternal life'

'Cut off' may not mean lose eternal life.

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

 

[360watt]

Romans 6
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

being made free from sin, and become servants to God,

1 John 3 & 5
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.

So.. what are you taking from these verses?

 

[Peterlag]

So.. what are you taking from these verses?

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

 

[360watt]

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian.

This is true.. we still have flesh v spirit after conversion though.

 

[Peterlag]

This is true.. we still have flesh v spirit after conversion though.

The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-naturetheology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.

Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin,live any longer therein?

The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives. This idea that the spirit of Christ makes our flesh spiritual is believed by most because the churches teach that Christians still have a sin nature. They do not. It's destroyed after the spirit of Christ has come upon the Christian. It seems like the whole Christian world teaches that the spirit follows the flesh, and by that, I mean the spirit functions through the flesh. The reason I cannot lust in the flesh when following after the spirit is because it's impossible to do so since the spirit of Christ does not lust after the flesh.