Is anyone else a Seer?

[Peterlag]

Breakdown of Paul's teaching on Romans 7

No law hath power over a man longer than he lives, 1–3. But we are dead to the law, 4–6. Yet is not the law sin, 7–11; but holy, just, and good, 12–15; as I acknowledge, who am grieved because I cannot keep it, 16–25.

7:1 While the law still fulfills its function of guiding us to know God’s moral standards, we are free from enslavement to it as a way of righteousness (see 6:14).

7:2 Paul illustrates our freedom from the law with the analogy of marriage, showing how the death of one partner frees the other from lifelong obligations. The subject under discussion here is not divorce and remarriage but the Christian’s relationship to the system called “law.” Paul is speaking here in general terms without making detailed qualifications, and his statements should not be pressed to exclude the grounds for divorce and remarriage mentioned in Matt. 19:9 and 1 Cor. 7:15, where divorce and remarriage are specifically under discussion.

7:4 You also have become dead to the law: The analogy is not perfect, for here we died, not the law. But the point is clear. Because a death has occurred, old obligations and powers are broken, and we are no longer under a system of trying to obey in our own strength. We are dead to that system of “law” (3:20; 6:14).

7:5 In our preconversion state our sinful passions, originating in the flesh, were aroused by the law, leading to death. As believers, similar struggles with sin in the flesh occur, but need not prevail. The difference is the presence of the Spirit to bring them under Christ’s kingdom dominion within us.

7:6 Freedom from the Law does not mean license to sin, but servitude to God. In the newness of the New Covenant, the Holy Spirit gives power to obey God, a power the Law by itself could never give.

7:7 The law is good, but it cannot empower us to obey. In this section, Paul guards against the misunderstanding that he is saying that the Law in itself is evil. He emphasizes several times that it is good, yet vividly describes the impossibility of obeying it in one’s own strength.
The frequent uses of the personal pronouns “I” and “me” in vv. 7-25 raise a question: Is Paul a) referring to himself, either as a Christian experiencing present struggles or b) as a former Pharisee, or is he c) referring to people in general who are attempting apart from the work of the Holy Spirit to attain righteousness in their own strength? The first position regards the passage as autobiographical, with Paul sharing his experiences both as a Pharisee (vv. 7-13) and as a Christian (vv. 14-25). Supporting this common view is the fact that the tenses change from the past to the present in vv. 14-25 and the fact that Paul ordinarily uses the pronoun “I” to refer to himself. But it is also true that Paul’s experiences are representative of others, first of those seeking righteousness by legalistic practices and then of Christians engaged in warfare between the new nature in Christ and the old nature still resident in the flesh. Since Paul uses “I” in a generic or hypothetical sense in 3:7 and 1 Cor. 13:1-3, some have proposed this passage is not autobiographical, since Paul is such a bold proponent of the victorious life elsewhere (8:2; Phil. 4:8; 2 Tim. 1:13). However, interpreters all agree there remains a struggle with sin in the Christian life (6:12-16; 2 Cor. 7:1; Gal. 5:16, 17; 1 Pet. 2:11).

7:7 Paul’s declaration that “we have been delivered from the law” (v. 6) gives rise to the question is the law sin? His reaction is one of horror. Then he proceeds to show that the Law of God is good, provided we understand its function, which is to reveal sin and to teach what is right. Powerless in itself to produce righteousness, it exposes sin for what it really is.

7:8 Apart from the law, sin was dormant, but the Law aroused a desire to do that which it forbade. The same is true of every Christian.

7:9 Realization of sin through the instrumentality of the Law makes one conscious of his spiritual death.

7:11 Sin, not the law, was to blame. God’s law, reflecting His righteous moral principles, is holy. It simply does not have the power to make us righteous.

7:14 According to position a) mentioned above (see note on 7:7-25), here Paul relates his own experience as a Christian to teach the lesson that the Law cannot deliver one who is struggling against sin. While the Law can enlighten one’s conscience, it is powerless to produce holiness of life. The fault, however, is not with the Law of God, which is spiritual (v. 14). The fault is with the law of sin (v. 23, see vv. 14, 17, 18, 20, 21), the indwelling depravity of human nature, which rebels against God’s laws. According to this view, Paul declares that he is carnal, a creature of the flesh, sold under sin, in captivity to sin (v. 14). Throughout this life a conflict goes on between the new nature and the old, but there is a way to victory: Christ frees us to live in the power of the Holy Spirit (v. 25-8:11).

7:17 See section 4 of Truth-In-Action at the end of Rom.

7:24 This body of death: The figure is of a person chained to a corpse from which he cannot be freed, despairing of deliverance. But despair gives way to a declaration of victory, not because the struggle ceases, but because human strength is exceeded by the power of the Holy Spirit.


Spirit Filled Life Study Bible

Breakdown of Paul's teaching on Romans 7

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) howthat the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were bythe law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered fromthe law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve innewness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, Ihad not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except thelaw had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment. Still about Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law and the commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through JesusChrist our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through theflesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and forsin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh.

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

 

[charismaticlady]

That's the best I can do. I see it as after salvation.

Romans 7:15-23 describes the internal struggle between the desire to do good and the inability to do so, a conflict caused by a persistent "sin nature" or "flesh" that opposes the will. The passage is about the ongoing battle between our new spiritual self and the old sinful self, which is a reality for both pre-conversion and post-conversion believers. This internal war, where the law of the mind wants to do right but the law of sin leads to doing wrong.

Prior to salvation, we have only one nature—the sin nature. But once we come to Christ, we are new creations in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17, but we still abide in the old flesh which has the remains of the sinful nature within it. These two natures war constantly with one another, continually pulling the believer in opposite directions.

It was when our sin had not been taken away yet that we were unable to keep God's commandments. Who took our sin away and cleansed our sin nature? I thought you knew what the Scriptures actually teach. You are smart. I can tell from what I first responded to. You are worth my time. Neil, Romans chapters 1-8 is one teaching about the Jews vs. the Gentiles, about the Law of Moses vs. the New Covenant of the Spirit.

I will go back further for context. Romans 7:1-6. I already showed you 5-6, but you didn't accept that context. Here is verse 4. But dwell on 5-6 I showed you before, and Romans 8:1-9. Also, go back even further to chapter 6:5-7 if it is still not clear as day, "5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin (the whole of sin) might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin."

Romans 7: 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

I went to church for the first 30 years of my life and wasn't born again. I couldn't keep God's commandments, but then I sought the Holy Spirit for 6 years after hearing about it. I had believed as you do from false teachers. Then I was finally filled with the Spirit of Jesus and had no more desire to sin lawless sins unto death.

Here is something to think about that the church doesn't teach, but I do. There are two types of sin. Sins unto death and sins NOT unto death. 1 John 5:16-17. The Old Covenant is our teacher. Numbers 15:22-36 There was a sacrifice for sins not unto death (like trespasses from immature fruit of the Spirit) verses 15-29, but NO SACRIFICE for sins unto death - the breaking of one of God's laws verses 30-36. Dwell on this my friend and I will continue if you are willing.

 

[charismaticlady]

Breakdown of Paul's teaching on Romans 7

1.) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) howthat the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
He's writing to Israel who knew the Law.

2.) For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
He's talking about the Jewish women under the Law.

4.) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
He's telling Israel they are now dead to their Law.

5.) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were bythe law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
By the Law he says. He's talking to Israel.

6.) But now we are delivered fromthe law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve innewness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
He's telling Israel they are delivered from the Law.

7.) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, Ihad not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except thelaw had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Is the Law sin? Israel had the Law.

8.) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
By the commandment... the Law. He's talking to Israel.

9.) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
The Law and the commandment. Still about Israel.

12.) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Law and the commandment. Still about Israel.

13.) ...by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
By the commandment. It's the Jewish Law he's still talking about.

14.) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
The Law... Israel's.

16.) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Still talking about the Law.

17.) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Under the Law.

18.) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Under the Law.

25.) I thank God through JesusChrist our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;but with the flesh the law of sin.
The flesh was under the Law.

1.) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No more flesh... Hello!!!

2.) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
No more Law of sin and death. Can you see he has now stopped talking about Israel?

3.) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through theflesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and forsin, condemned sin in the flesh:
The Law was weak through the flesh.

4.) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Bingo.

9.) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you...

We agree. I hope Neil will listen. He's smart, and already knows that the sin nature has been cleansed by the blood of Jesus.

 

[charismaticlady]

I have had a number of Christians tell me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is witht heir flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."

But don't teach that not being under the law gives us grace to break God's laws. No! (Romans 6:1-2) The Spirit of Christ writes God's laws on our cleansed nature to keep them naturally, no longer fighting against the flesh.

cc: @Neil Spargo

 

[Neil Spargo]

I'm definitely not into the sinless perfection doctrine as there is no way that a Christian can achieve complete freedom from sin in our earthly life through spiritual effort or divine grace.

Need go no further than 1 John 1:8, which states, "If we say we have no sins, we deceive ourselves".

Then you have Galatians 5:16-17
16. But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
17. For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.

It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires

Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one.
14 But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).
15 Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death.
16 Do not be misled, my beloved brethren

That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realize they are supposed to be fighting.

 

[Peterlag]

I'm definitely not into the sinless perfection doctrine as there is no way that a Christian can achieve complete freedom from sin in our earthly life through spiritual effort or divine grace.

Need go no further than 1 John 1:8, which states, "If we say we have no sins, we deceive ourselves".

Then you have Galatians 5:16-17
16. But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
17. For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.

It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires

Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one.
14 But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).
15 Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death.
16 Do not be misled, my beloved brethren

That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realize they are supposed to be fighting.

The Scriptures do not use the words "sinless perfection" and therefore whatever you're teaching it's not in the Bible.

 

[Neil Spargo]

The Scriptures do not use the words "sinless perfection" and therefore whatever you're teaching it's not in the Bible.

To make your post correct you need to change "and therefore whatever you're teaching" "to whatever your disagreeing to". As I'm not trying to teach the false sinless perfection doctrine. You misinterpreted my post.

Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.” Some translations say that we will become “perfect” (instead of “mature”), and from this some people have mistakenly thought that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature (see Romans 7:14–24). No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven.

True perfection will not come until the rapture of the church, when we rise to meet Jesus in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At that time the dead in Christ will be resurrected, and the bodies of the living will be changed (Philippians 3:20, 21; 1 Corinthians 15:54). We will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) where our works will be judged and rewards will be given (1 Corinthians 3:9–15). Our redemption will be complete, and our sin will be gone forever. We will live and reign with Christ in sinless perfection forever.

Got Questions Ministries

 

[charismaticlady]

I'm definitely not into the sinless perfection doctrine as there is no way that a Christian can achieve complete freedom from sin in our earthly life through spiritual effort or divine grace.

I do not teach sinless perfection. But do not diminish the power of the blood of Jesus. Look at Revelation 22:11. Those going to heaven will be either righteousness, or holy. I hope you will be there with what you don't believe. Remember, there are two types of sin. When we are first born again of the Spirit and are no longer in the flesh Romans 7:4-6; Romans 8:1-9, Jesus has taken away the sin of lawlessness, 1 John 3:4-5. He cleansed our sin nature so that we may partake of the divine nature of God. These are the Commandments of God, and are sins unto death. This chapter shows this is how we receive righteousness and eternal life. The desire to commit those sins are gone and we cannot break those commandments.

That is sinlessness, but not perfection. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Jesus Authored our righteousness, and then IF we continue to abide IN Jesus, He begins the work as Finisher. That is a long process that Paul had a hard time with, but finally reached as we see in his last letter to Timothy. This process is Jesus maturing the fruit of the Spirit in us to where we will NEVER STUMBLE. That is holiness. 2 Peter 1:5-11.

Need go no further than 1 John 1:8, which states, "If we say we have no sins, we deceive ourselves".

1 John 2:4 is what that verse actually means. "4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Do you also believe 1 John 1:6 is a Christian? That person does not have the Spirit of Christ in him. Again, you have taken a verse out of context of the whole. Your gift of discernment seems to be on the fritz. You believe the doctrines of man instead.

Then you have Galatians 5:16-17
16. But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
17. For the desires of the flesh are opposed to the [Holy] Spirit, and the [desires of the] Spirit are opposed to the flesh (godless human nature); for these are antagonistic to each other [continually withstanding and in conflict with each other], so that you are not free but are prevented from doing what you desire to do.

It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with sinful desires

Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses.

Verse 17 has an error in it. The publisher capitalized the "s" in spirit, as if it was not your mind, but the Holy Spirit. Wrong.

James 1:13-16
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am tempted from God; for God is incapable of being tempted by [what is] evil and He Himself tempts no one.
14 But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed and baited by his own evil desire (lust, passions).
15 Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is fully matured, brings forth death.
16 Do not be misled, my beloved brethren

James 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Neil, don't be like those Christians who look for loopholes to sin. Join those who seek holiness and are worthy. You are too smart to stay under false teachers who present Christianity as a license to sin.

That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realize they are supposed to be fighting.
When Jesus cleansed the lawlessness out of me (after those 30 years) I went from slavery to adultery to no desire to sin at all.

 

[charismaticlady]

The frequent uses of the personal pronouns “I” and “me” in vv. 7-25 raise a question: Is Paul a) referring to himself, either as a Christian experiencing present struggles or b) as a former Pharisee, or is he c) referring to people in general who are attempting apart from the work of the Holy Spirit to attain righteousness in their own strength?

You are a western reader, but Paul, Peter and John were eastern apostles and wrote in a Hebrew way that you seem not to understand.

Look at Romans 8:1-2 and see that Paul is still using himself but is against Romans 7:14-23.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made ME free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Neil Spargo]

I do not teach sinless perfection. But do not diminish the power of the blood of Jesus. Look at Revelation 22:11. Those going to heaven will be either righteousness, or holy. I hope you will be there with what you don't believe. Remember, there are two types of sin. When we are first born again of the Spirit and are no longer in the flesh Romans 7:4-6; Romans 8:1-9, Jesus has taken away the sin of lawlessness, 1 John 3:4-5. He cleansed our sin nature so that we may partake of the divine nature of God. These are the Commandments of God, and are sins unto death. This chapter shows this is how we receive righteousness and eternal life. The desire to commit those sins are gone and we cannot break those commandments.

That is sinlessness, but not perfection. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Jesus Authored our righteousness, and then IF we continue to abide IN Jesus, He begins the work as Finisher. That is a long process that Paul had a hard time with, but finally reached as we see in his last letter to Timothy. This process is Jesus maturing the fruit of the Spirit in us to where we will NEVER STUMBLE. That is holiness. 2 Peter 1:5-11.

1 John 2:4 is what that verse actually means. "4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." Do you also believe 1 John 1:6 is a Christian? That person does not have the Spirit of Christ in him. Again, you have taken a verse out of context of the whole. Your gift of discernment seems to be on the fritz. You believe the doctrines of man instead.

Verse 17 has an error in it. The publisher capitalized the "s" in spirit, as if it was not your mind, but the Holy Spirit. Wrong.

James 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Neil, don't be like those Christians who look for loopholes to sin. Join those who seek holiness and are worthy. You are too smart to stay under false teachers who present Christianity as a license to sin.

That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realize they are supposed to be fighting.
When Jesus cleansed the lawlessness out of me (after those 30 years) I went from slavery to adultery to no desire to sin at all.

You are free to post your beliefs just let me do the same. My gift of discernment works fine for me thank you. As for your comment "I hope you will be there with what you don't believe." about my being in heaven, well that's none of your concern.

You cannot judge another person’s servant. The master decides if the servant is doing well or not. And the Lord’s servant will do well because the Lord helps him do well. Romans 14:4

All that aside...

Absolute sinlessness is a goal which Christians must seek but which they do not as yet find not this side of heaven. No doubt when the Christian is perfected in glory he will be sinless, but to equate the biblical idea of perfection with sinlessness and then to argue that, because the Bible calls some men perfect, therefore sinlessness on earth must be a practical possibility, would be to darken counsel. The present perfection which, according to Scripture, some Christians attain is a matter, not of sinlessness, but of strong faith, joyful patience, and overflowing love. That is the fruit of Sanctification.

At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified or set apart positionally; that is, we are saved from the ultimate penalty of sin. Then begins progressive sanctification, the process whereby we are saved from the practice and power of sin. And after this physical life is over, we will be sanctified finally; that is, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

 

[charismaticlady]

Absolute sinlessness is a goal which Christians must seek but which they do not as yet find not this side of heaven. No doubt when the Christian is perfected in glory he will be sinless, but to equate the biblical idea of perfection with sinlessness and then to argue that, because the Bible calls some men perfect, therefore sinlessness on earth must be a practical possibility, would be to darken counsel. The present perfection which, according to Scripture, some Christians attain is a matter, not of sinlessness, but of strong faith, joyful patience, and overflowing love. That is the fruit of Sanctification.

We are sanctified when we are cleansed of all unrighteousness.

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. The teaching that overcoming sin is a lifelong process called sanctification is a lie. We don't do it, Jesus does. We are not the author of our faith. And notice in Romans 1:16-17 there are two faiths. That has to do with the two ministries of Jesus in us as the author and finisher of our faith. First goes out of our nature, sins unto death, making us righteous and sinless, otherwise known as free from sin. Romans 6:7.

The actual process that we go through is glorification, that you have been taught will not happen until after death. Wrong. Whatever state we are in when we die, we remain. Revelation 22:11.

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Being a sinless Christian is not that hard when the Holy Spirit indwells you. Look at Galatians 5:19-21. Can you honestly say you do any of these things? I did before being filled with the Spirit until I was 30, but certainly not after. The whole desire to sin is gone forever. Then comes the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit which Jesus does as we abide IN Him. If we do not abide in Him there will be no fruit, and we would be in danger of Jesus saying, I never knew you.

John 15:1-4 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

At the moment of salvation, we are sanctified or set apart positionally; that is, we are saved from the ultimate penalty of sin. Then begins progressive sanctification, the process whereby we are saved from the practice and power of sin. And after this physical life is over, we will be sanctified finally; that is, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

I give you Scriptures to back up my beliefs. Your beliefs seem to be based on thin air.

 

[Neil Spargo]

What u talking bout willis

This sounds like thin air to you:

Post#950
You cannot judge another person’s servant. The master decides if the servant is doing well or not. And the Lord’s servant will do well because the Lord helps him do well. Romans 14:4

Post#950
You are free to post your beliefs just let me do the same.

 

[charismaticlady]

What u talking bout willis

This sounds like thin air to you:

Post#950
You cannot judge another person’s servant. The master decides if the servant is doing well or not. And the Lord’s servant will do well because the Lord helps him do well. Romans 14:4

Post#950
You are free to post your beliefs just let me do the same.

Become a Berean and check every doctrine of your denomination, because it is full of falsehoods. Your first post seemed like you were actually quoting Scripture, and I could agree. But since then you've posted a weak gospel that is not the "power of God" as Romans 1:16-17 shows. Is this Scripture true or not? Or do you want to nullify it's strength by adding words that were not in the original?

4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Or do you still believe 1 John 1:8 is about a born again of the Spirit Christian? The key word in 1 John 1 and 2 is "say." A true Christian walks in the light. They don't hide behind their lies and say falsehoods like 1 John 2:4. 4 "He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." It is not claiming to not sin that is the lie, but saying it, but breaking the commandments that is the lie. Understand now?

 

[Neil Spargo]

Become a Berean and check every doctrine of your denomination, because it is full of falsehoods. Your first post seemed like you were actually quoting Scripture, and I could agree. But since then you've posted a weak gospel that is not the "power of God" Understand now?

Stop making this personal. I have no denomination. Do you Understand now?

But let endurance and steadfastness and patience have full play and do a thorough work, so that you may be [people] perfectly and fully developed [with no defects], lacking in nothing.
James 1:4.

Perfect does not denote absolute sinlessness, but carries the idea of being fully developed or mature. Complete underscores the thought of fullness and wholeness.

The Christian life does not just begin with faith, but it continues by faith. It is a life of faith. Similarly, the Christian life is a life of repentance. When Jesus saves us, we do not instantly become sinlessly perfect, and indeed we will not become perfect until the consummation. Jesus teaches us to pray, “Forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven our debtors” Matt. 6:12

Jesus tells those whom he loves to “be zealous and repent” Rev. 3:19

 

[Peterlag]

To make your post correct you need to change "and therefore whatever you're teaching" "to whatever your disagreeing to". As I'm not trying to teach the false sinless perfection doctrine. You misinterpreted my post.

There's no words in the Bible that says "sinless perfection" and so those words are not biblical.

 

[Neil Spargo]

There's no words in the Bible that says "sinless perfection" and so those words are not biblical.

Who said there was?

 

[Christina]

Try googling “sinless perfection”. What you will find are a million articles by orthodox believers responding to those who hold the doctrine, but very, VERY few posts by people who believe it. Most Christians don’t. Try searching for books on sinless perfection on Amazon. You will find books on the sinless perfection of Christ (who didn’t know that?) and books setting out to demonstrate from scripture that sinless perfection in this life is a futile exercise, but nothing that unambiguously attempts to set out the doctrine from scripture. How to Live the Victorious Life, for example, takes an entire chapter to declare it is not teaching sinless perfection.

 

[charismaticlady]

There's no words in the Bible that says "sinless perfection" and so those words are not biblical.

They are definite stages of a Christians life, but not at the same time as that phrase suggests. But righteousness is sinlessness 1 John 3. And holiness is perfection 2 Peter 1:5-11 after ALL of the gifts of the Spirit have been matured by Jesus as we abide in Him. So even though "sinless perfection" should not be used does not negate those stages separately.

Remember there are two levels of sin. Sins unto death which are the desires in our nature that Jesus takes away, making us sinless of the highest level of sin. And sins NOT unto death which we will commit even while walking in the light, but the blood of Jesus does cleanse us as we abide in him. 1 John 1:7.

cc: @Neil Spargo Do you believe the scriptures I've noted?

 

[charismaticlady]

Stop making this personal. I have no denomination. Do you Understand now?

But let endurance and steadfastness and patience have full play and do a thorough work, so that you may be [people] perfectly and fully developed [with no defects], lacking in nothing.
James 1:4.

Perfect does not denote absolute sinlessness, but carries the idea of being fully developed or mature. Complete underscores the thought of fullness and wholeness.

The Christian life does not just begin with faith, but it continues by faith. It is a life of faith. Similarly, the Christian life is a life of repentance. When Jesus saves us, we do not instantly become sinlessly perfect, and indeed we will not become perfect until the consummation. Jesus teaches us to pray, “Forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven our debtors” Matt. 6:12

Jesus tells those whom he loves to “be zealous and repent” Rev. 3:19

 

[charismaticlady]

When Jesus saves us, we do not instantly become sinlessly perfect, and indeed we will not become perfect until the consummation.

This implies after death? Where is this found in the Bible. Peter says different.