Introducing the Spirit of our Father God: his power and presence in our lives

[APAK]

I appreciate your transparency and the glory you attribute to the Son from the Holy Spirit and the Father even though we disagree on the Trinity.

If I did not know you were a unitarian I would read this and think you were a trinitarian

What really is the difference between you and I in most doctrine(s) is the perspective and context of each of the 3 key players in scripture. The Father and his Spirit and his Son present themselves to me in scripture and in life, harmony and peace. I really believe it and within me there is peace in this as a fact of my life. Not saying things are plain sailing for me in the rough seas of living....I know I am loved civic...The Father and Son love me and I share their love with others, at times...many times...at home and at play

I will be forward and say my first priority is in scripture, and to capture the best and most accurate translation and hold to that fast over any historical religious thought or book sources. I truly civic request and pray for the Spirit of God with his Son to guide me in these matter, even here.

I do tend to be as @Matthias and apparently a lot like @Wrangler. If I were to label myself as a 'Biblical Unitarian' it would be, and is surely based on the OT folks of Hebraic thought and in their scripture first. It is the source and the forerunner of my beliefs today. The NT should explain the OT to a great deal. If it does not I maybe spinning my wheels.

I just do not agree with models or modelling worship of my Creator. I stay away from modeling my Creator and his Son in terms of human thought(s)....I do not go with the crowd on most areas...I most probably fall into a 1 percent category of a type of believer in my Creator and his most valuable creation, the 2nd Adam and my loving brother, lord Yahshua, who is my true friend as I learn to know my Father through him, every day...

I tend to go on....hopefully there is some goof stuff in it along the way....

 

[APAK]

Note: I noticed that being in a little hurry to generate the chart in the OP I accidently used the term 'quench' in a bubble. The word 'squelch' is better used by most although the first may have the best and intended meaning...as in 'snuff out' or extinguish' or 'lose (its) heat'

Might be ok then....

 

[APAK]

Another key bullet that needs to be listed here for study that can be attached to the Spirit of God that seems self evident and obvious yet not by many.

Can be listed as 'It knows the mind and word (self expression) of the Father God.'

@Matthias renewed my mind to the 'self-expression' of logos...thx

And where God is spoken of in the following verses it really means the Father God. And where it says 'the Spirit' it really means the Father's Spirit or 'His Spirit.' And 'Lord' in verse 16 means the Father God.

(1Co 2:10) But God has shown us these things through the Spirit. The Spirit knows all things. The Spirit even knows the deep secrets of God.
(1Co 2:11) It is like this: No one knows the thoughts that another person has. Only the person's spirit that lives inside knows those thoughts. It is the same with God. No one knows God's thoughts except God's Spirit.
(1Co 2:12) We received the Spirit that is from God, not the spirit of the world. We received God's Spirit so that we can know all that God has given us.
(1Co 2:13) When we say this, we don't use words taught to us by human wisdom. We use words taught to us by the Spirit. We use the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.
(1Co 2:14) People who do not have God's Spirit do not accept the things that come from his Spirit. They think these things are foolish. They cannot understand them, because they can only be understood with the Spirit's help.
(1Co 2:15) We who have the Spirit are able to make judgments about all these things. But anyone without the Spirit is not able to make proper judgments about us.
(1Co 2:16) As the Scriptures say, "Who can know what is on the Lord's mind? Who is able to give him advice?" But we have been given Christ's way of thinking.

And we can know, we have access to the Father's Spirit because we have the active spirit of his Son growing within us that is directly possessed by it (the Father's Spirit or active life).

 

[APAK]

Updated Chart:

 

[Wrangler]

No one knows God's thoughts except God's Spirit.

I do not agree with this as it implies a separate consciousness.

Rather, I’d say no action YHWH wills is independent of his Spirit - as it is with all Beings.

The difference is mortal spirits, our fleshy spirits, are unstable, bobbing in the sea of emotion and circumstance. While YHWH has emotion, his circumstances are constant - supreme ruler of Jesus and the rest of Creation.

Like all aspects of YHWH’s existence, his thoughts are holy, set apart, from his Creation.

 

[Wrangler]

Duplicate

 

[Wrangler]

Continuing with the thought of the relationship between our spirit and ourselves …

We mortals say things like ‘my thoughts and prayers are with you’ BECAUSE we know there IS power in our intent, will, spirit.

We often use our creation - manmade things and relationships - to carry out our intent, will, spirit. These things include emails, texts, phone calls, letters in the mail, sending an intermediary on our behalf. (YHWH mostly does this).

Using our creation - manmade things or intermediaries - Is not the same thing as achieving our goal in person. Doing so is a crisis - danger and opportunity. If I am in conflict with my neighbor and I use words in a VM to express myself, that is a far cry from me marching over in person where I could kill him and his entire family. (Or my direct appeal could resolve the conflict more effectively than any indirect approach ever could.)

YHWH rarely does this. He did it with Moses and told Moses he could not survive even gazing at him but may see only the back of his glory.

Knowing our intent, will, spirit and intermediaries have power, we must humbly admit our Creator’s is infinitely greater - but it’s not a different consciousness. Praise Jesus’ God - who alone is YHWH, our Father!

 

[APAK]

I do not agree with this as it implies a separate consciousness.

Rather, I’d say no action YHWH wills is independent of his Spirit - as it is with all Beings.

The difference is mortal spirits, our fleshy spirits, are unstable, bobbing in the sea of emotion and circumstance. While YHWH has emotion, his circumstances are constant - supreme ruler of Jesus and the rest of Creation.

Like all aspects of YHWH’s existence, his thoughts are holy, set apart, from his Creation.

I will have to think about it and sleep on it...

I never intended to produce two consciences since the Spirit of God is the 'extension' of God's own 'internal' conscience, and therefore his mind/word. There is only one mind, one conscience one person...and so it is as you say, that when the will of YHWH acts it is his spirit already in action. So how more intimate can one get. His spirit and logos of one consciousness are one already - inseparable. I guess I never discussed all this yet.

 

[APAK]

Continuing with the thought of the relationship between our spirit and ourselves …

We mortals say things like ‘my thoughts and prayers are with you’ BECAUSE we know there IS power in our intent, will, spirit.

We often use our creation - manmade things and relationships - to carry out our intent, will, spirit. These things include emails, texts, phone calls, letters in the mail, sending an intermediary on our behalf. (YHWH mostly does this).

Using our creation - manmade things or intermediaries - Is not the same thing as achieving our goal in person. Doing so is a crisis - danger and opportunity. If I am in conflict with my neighbor and I use words in a VM to express myself, that is a far cry from me marching over in person where I could kill him and his entire family. (Or my direct appeal could resolve the conflict more effectively than any indirect approach ever could.)

YHWH rarely does this. He did it with Moses and told Moses he could not survive even gazing at him but may see only the back of his glory.

Knowing our intent, will, spirit and intermediaries have power, we must humbly admit our Creator’s is infinitely greater - but it’s not a different consciousness. Praise Jesus’ God - who alone is YHWH, our Father!

I reread your posts again and mine, and I cannot see what you see in these posts that show 2 consciences or of a different conscience for YHWH and his active Spirit as life. What exactly made you think this way? If you tell me then we can nip this in the butt quickly. ..and without providing other examples....was it a word or expression that struck you with another meaning?

I just did not see it...yet

Let me know so I need to correct it to clearly state only one consciousness is present ...thx

 

[civic]

I reread your posts again and mine, and I cannot see what you see in these posts that show 2 consciences or of a different conscience for YHWH and his active Spirit as life. What exactly made you think this way? If you tell me then we can nip this in the butt quickly. ..and without providing other examples....was it a word or expression that struck you with another meaning?

I just did not see it...yet

Let me know so I need to correct it to clearly state only one consciousness is present ...thx

I don’t see it either as an fyi.

 

[APAK]

I don’t see it either as an fyi.

I will check with him later, maybe there was a word or expression that might mean something else....or there is room for to much ambiguity or maybe the framework and composition of internal/external parts of the Father is something strange and reflects a double mind/conscience....?.

thx again civic....I need to rest....90 percent better with this nagging head cold...finally...amen

 

[civic]

I will check with him later, maybe there was a word or expression that might mean something else....or there is room for to much ambiguity or maybe the framework and composition of internal/external parts of the Father is something strange and reflects a double mind/conscience....?.

thx again civic....I need to rest....90 percent better with this nagging head cold...finally...amen

It should be no different than your view with logos in John 1 as an expression of God the Father. One is His word and the other His Spirit. Different ways God expressed Himself as a Unitarian God. How was that , I would make a good unitarian right

 

[APAK]

Another key bullet that needs to be listed here for study that can be attached to the Spirit of God that seems self evident and obvious yet not by many.

Can be listed as 'It knows the mind and word (self expression) of the Father God.'

@Matthias renewed my mind to the 'self-expression' of logos...thx

And where God is spoken of in the following verses it really means the Father God. And where it says 'the Spirit' it really means the Father's Spirit or 'His Spirit.' And 'Lord' in verse 16 means the Father God.

(1Co 2:10) But God has shown us these things through the Spirit. The Spirit knows all things. The Spirit even knows the deep secrets of God.
(1Co 2:11) It is like this: No one knows the thoughts that another person has. Only the person's spirit that lives inside knows those thoughts. It is the same with God. No one knows God's thoughts except God's Spirit.
(1Co 2:12) We received the Spirit that is from God, not the spirit of the world. We received God's Spirit so that we can know all that God has given us.
(1Co 2:13) When we say this, we don't use words taught to us by human wisdom. We use words taught to us by the Spirit. We use the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths.
(1Co 2:14) People who do not have God's Spirit do not accept the things that come from his Spirit. They think these things are foolish. They cannot understand them, because they can only be understood with the Spirit's help.
(1Co 2:15) We who have the Spirit are able to make judgments about all these things. But anyone without the Spirit is not able to make proper judgments about us.
(1Co 2:16) As the Scriptures say, "Who can know what is on the Lord's mind? Who is able to give him advice?" But we have been given Christ's way of thinking.

And we can know, we have access to the Father's Spirit because we have the active spirit of his Son growing within us that is directly possessed by it (the Father's Spirit or active life).

Now we can attach/bridge/associate other scripture to this section of thought done by the Spirit of the Father that causes us to have the mind of Christ and perform the will of our Father God as a genuine believer.

As Christ did and still does today!

I have partitioned a portion of the chart for this purpose.1 Corinthians 2 and Philippians 2 tie together as one area of thought and should be viewed this way. And there are other associations of course.

Using the NEV translation:

(1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak about, but not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but in words that the Spirit teaches, combining spiritual things with spiritual.

(1Co 2:16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

and...

(Php 2:1) The Mental Attitude of Christ to be Our Example....

Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassions,

(Php 2:5) Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.

(Php 2:6) Who, though being in the mental image of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

(Php 2:7) but poured himself out, taking the mental attitude of a servant, and was made just the same as all ordinary men.


Again where God is read, it really means Father God.

The Spirit of God therefore unites us to do the will of our Father through the Son's spirit within us, using hi same mindset!


(Php 2:13) For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work, for His good pleasure.


And the Chart section that covers this portion of discussion.

 

[Wrangler]

I cannot see what you see in these posts that show 2 consciences or of a different conscience

This sentence of yours in bold.

No one knows God's thoughts except God's Spirit.

The pervasive illogic of trinitarianism causes one to not think in ordinary terms. If you replace "God" in the sentence above with a regular person's name, say "Henry," the 3rd person speak emerges, which diverges from ordinary use of language.

Sure, king's use the royal "we," speaking of themselves in the 3rd person. Bob Dole famously did this.

So, getting back to "Henry" in normal use of language --> No one knows Henry's thoughts except Henry's Spirit. This implies Henry, himself, does not know his own thoughts. Only, this 2nd consciousness, apart from Henry, knows Henry's thoughts. Normal use of language would be to simply say:
No one knows my thoughts except me.
No one knows Henry's thoughts except Henry.
- And -
No one knows God's thoughts except God.

I do hope post # 27 clarifies the distinction between one and their own spirit, particularly.

We often use our creation - manmade things and relationships - to carry out our intent, will, spirit. These things include emails, texts, phone calls, letters in the mail, sending an intermediary on our behalf. (YHWH mostly does this).

Using our creation - manmade things or intermediaries - Is not the same thing as achieving our goal in person.

I'm sure we've all had the experience that we've used our creation, such as a letter or email, and the recipient takes something you expressed in it the wrong way. The truth of your intent, will and spirit is only cleared up when there is an appeal to you in person. That YHWH rarely achieves his goal in person is why Jesus did not say the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against YHWH in person, as a person directly. He mostly acts indirectly through his Creation, Therefore, it is his Spirit, his intent, his will that is susceptible to criticism, the object of the unforgivable sin.

Hope this helps.

 

[civic]

Now we can attach/bridge/associate other scripture to this section of thought done by the Spirit of the Father that causes us to have the mind of Christ and perform the will of our Father God as a genuine believer.

As Christ did and still does today!

I have partitioned a portion of the chart for this purpose.1 Corinthians 2 and Philippians 2 tie together as one area of thought and should be viewed this way. And there are other associations of course.

Using the NEV translation:

(1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak about, but not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but in words that the Spirit teaches, combining spiritual things with spiritual.

(1Co 2:16) For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

and...

(Php 2:1) The Mental Attitude of Christ to be Our Example....

Therefore, if there is any encouragement in Christ, if any consolation of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any tender mercies and compassions,

(Php 2:5) Have this mind in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.

(Php 2:6) Who, though being in the mental image of God, did not consider grasping at being equal with God,

(Php 2:7) but poured himself out, taking the mental attitude of a servant, and was made just the same as all ordinary men.


Again where God is read, it really means Father God.

The Spirit of God therefore unites us to do the will of our Father through the Son's spirit within us, using hi same mindset!


(Php 2:13) For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work, for His good pleasure.


And the Chart section that covers this portion of discussion.

View attachment 283

Good flow chart here. We differ on who the HS is but you have captured the flow of the H.S. well in this chart. Well done !

And I want to say this to you personally. I do not see you as my enemy and I hope you do not see me as your enemy but if you do I understand why. But I know not all unitarians think alike on many issues like this. You don't have to answer if you don't feel like it.

 

[APAK]

This sentence of yours in bold.

The pervasive illogic of trinitarianism causes one to not think in ordinary terms. If you replace "God" in the sentence above with a regular person's name, say "Henry," the 3rd person speak emerges, which diverges from ordinary use of language.

Sure, king's use the royal "we," speaking of themselves in the 3rd person. Bob Dole famously did this.

So, getting back to "Henry" in normal use of language --> No one knows Henry's thoughts except Henry's Spirit. This implies Henry, himself, does not know his own thoughts. Only, this 2nd consciousness, apart from Henry, knows Henry's thoughts. Normal use of language would be to simply say:
No one knows my thoughts except me.
No one knows Henry's thoughts except Henry.
- And -
No one knows God's thoughts except God.

I do hope post # 27 clarifies the distinction between one and their own spirit, particularly.


I'm sure we've all had the experience that we've used our creation, such as a letter or email, and the recipient takes something you expressed in it the wrong way. The truth of your intent, will and spirit is only cleared up when there is an appeal to you in person. That YHWH rarely achieves his goal in person is why Jesus did not say the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against YHWH in person, as a person directly. He mostly acts indirectly through his Creation, Therefore, it is his Spirit, his intent, his will that is susceptible to criticism, the object of the unforgivable sin.

Hope this helps.

Wrangler, I think you are way over-baking this scripture portion, and they are not my words that was highlighted in bold. Again they are not my words and now I forget exactly the translation source. And they with your example(s) you completely lose me.

The Spirit of God is core to who the Father is, and is his self-id, along with his word. This area can be difficult to understand and I will not give-way compromise, and cater, and be religiously correct that might invoke a possible outcry and an opening for any Trinitarian, Binitarian or even an extreme Unitarian to add in their debris and create a beachhead here.. I would defeat my purpose here already if I thought this way.

And because you have raised this type of thought, and it's unnecessary in my view, I will ignore and continue using the word of God if I see someone trying to sabotage this thread for their own selfish needs. They are at liberty to make their own thread if need be...

I am not worried at all in what I write here as long I can support it with scripture. And human ideas seem to seep into anything that is meant to be 'holy.' And I'm not that good and holy without the Father and Son anyway. So what's new under this sun?

Anyway, here is that 1 Co 2:11 again from other translations.

(1Co 2:11) For who among men knows the things of a man, except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God, except God’s Spirit. (WEB)

(1Co 2:11) For, among human beings, who knows a man's inner thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? In the same way, also, only God's Spirit is acquainted with God's inner thoughts. (Williams)

(1Co 2:11) For, among human beings, who knows a man's inner thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? In the same way, also, only God's Spirit is acquainted with God's inner thoughts. (WNT)

(1Co 2:11) For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? So also, the thoughts of Elohim no one has known, except the Spirit of Elohim. (TS2009)

And your concern, that '...the 3rd person speak emerges, which diverges from ordinary use of language...this is NOT an issue Wrangler, at all...

I will not get caught up in Trinity-speak at all.....it will kill off this thread and it seems you are accidentally encouraging....

 

[APAK]

and now to add in @civic 's previous input into the chart...that the Spirit of God resides within every believer (via his Son's Spirit)






(Rom 8:9) " But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. " (NEV)

And 'he is none of his' means we do not have the Father, his Spirit) without the Son (his spirit).

The Spirit of the Father is given to us only through the spirit of his Son.

And a live example:
(Act 16:6) And they went through the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia.

(Act 16:7) And when they came to the border of Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia; but the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them. (NEV)

 

[synergy]

Well we can target the bubble concerning its (HS) guidance to stay in the will of God, to present the truth to a believer and perform the will of the Father after Jesus' ascension.

John 16:13a However when it, the Spirit of Truth, is come, it will guide you into all truth.

The day of Pentecost arrived within 6 weeks(?) of Jesus' ascension.

Those that received this 'poured out' power and measures of the Spirit of God, each with different functions to perform of the Spirit, and some common, were now armed ready to do the will of the Father. They travelled far and wide to bring the truth, perform miracles and forgive sins to many peoples concerning the gospel and about the truth of the Son of God. Salvation was now available to all nations

Back to the "it" contentious issue. εκεινος is a masculine accusative pronoun that translates to He, Him. That's the word that John is using in John 16:13. It would be the neuter pronoun εκεινο that would translate to "it". Sorry to rain on your parade.

(John 16:13) However, when He (εκεινος), the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come. (MKJV)

Furthermore, the Bible does depict the Holy Spirit as a Person, not an "it" object. He can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30). He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:4-7). He uses His own mind to search the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2:10-11). And He has fellowship with believers (2 Corinthians 13:14). Clearly, the Spirit is a Person, just as the Father and the Son are Persons.

I'm curious to know which Bible version you're quoting from.

 

[APAK]

Back to the "it" contentious issue. εκεινος is a masculine accusative pronoun that translates to He, Him. That's the word that John is using in John 16:13. It would be the neuter pronoun εκεινο that would translate to "it". Sorry to rain on your parade.

(John 16:13) However, when He (εκεινος), the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come. (MKJV)

Furthermore, the Bible does depict the Holy Spirit as a Person, not an "it" object. He can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30). He has a will (1 Corinthians 12:4-7). He uses His own mind to search the deep things of God (1 Corinthians 2:10-11). And He has fellowship with believers (2 Corinthians 13:14). Clearly, the Spirit is a Person, just as the Father and the Son are Persons.

I'm curious to know which Bible version you're quoting from.

Thanks for your recurring and similar feedback although you can wrestle with 'it.' for now. When I get to a point where I can dovetail into your comments I will. You can count on it. Until then I will keep expanding the bubbles with more scripture support.

Modified my comment here:

Remember, that an 'it' can be genderized as a 'he' or 'she', personified, as a personification of what it is, to better describe 'it' on a human level for understanding, It does not change what it truly represents and symbolizes however. And usually in scripture it is associated with a real personality.

I would check that out and it may solve some of your queries why 'it' is this way with the Spirit of the Father.

 

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