If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.

[Diserner]

It seems some people on here think Jesus suffered a little bit—but just enough to do something to make sins go away.


Somehow, not explained.

Not related to the Holy Perfect Law.

Not related to the wrath of God against sin.


Jesus physically suffers for a few minutes and all sins go away......... somehow in an unexplained way.


Why not just reject the concept of Jesus having to suffer for sins at all?

Why does God need Jesus to hurt to forgive people's sins?!

 

[civic]

Strawman

 

[e v e]

Christ came here of His own choice to rescue us from the evil adam caused. A rescue mission.. to be completed soon, as part ii, when we meet Christ on the clouds and go Home to eden paradise.

Christ suffered very much for us... it was horrific and pure evil what mystery babylon and its esau henchmen did to Him out of hatred for Christ and hatred of us who are His.

 

[e v e]

It's a bit like asking if a man saving his child or a brother or sister from a collapsing structure being hit by a tornado needs to be hit by flying debris. The goal is the point.... and the goal is to save the child regardless what the evil tornado (mystery-babylon) does.

 

[sethproton]

Strawman

You say strawman, which is him mistating your position so he can argue more easily against it.
What was the mistatement of yur position?

 

[synergy]

It seems some people on here think Jesus suffered a little bit—but just enough to do something to make sins go away.


Somehow, not explained.

Not related to the Holy Perfect Law.

Not related to the wrath of God against sin.


Jesus physically suffers for a few minutes and all sins go away......... somehow in an unexplained way.


Why not just reject the concept of Jesus having to suffer for sins at all?

Why does God need Jesus to hurt to forgive people's sins?!

That's where a legal view of the Atonement fails. The ontological Biblical view of the Atonement explains it much better. For example, when Jesus entered Hades (when He died), He stripped it of its powers (how can anything forcefully contain the Word of God?), and led the OT Saints to Heaven. Thus, the way to Heaven for all believers has been cleared through by Jesus.

 

[civic]

You say strawman, which is him mistating your position so he can argue more easily against it.
What was the mistatement of yur position?

because thats not my argument first of all its misrepresented and its not the teaching of Jesus and not the gospel. So that is why its a strawman.

 

[sethproton]

because thats not my argument first of all its misrepresented and its not the teaching of Jesus and not the gospel. So that is why its a strawman.

you didn't tell me anything. In a few simple words state your argument and then specifically how he misrepresented it.

 

[Diserner]

you didn't tell me anything. In a few simple words state your argument and the how he misrepresented it.

Around here, just throwing out a fallacy name means you win.

You don't have to understand what it means or prove it was being used.

 

[civic]

I’ll get back after my golf round this afternoon/ evening. The caricatures are getting old hat around here lately

 

[Soyeong]

It seems some people on here think Jesus suffered a little bit—but just enough to do something to make sins go away.


Somehow, not explained.

Not related to the Holy Perfect Law.

Not related to the wrath of God against sin.


Jesus physically suffers for a few minutes and all sins go away......... somehow in an unexplained way.


Why not just reject the concept of Jesus having to suffer for sins at all?

Why does God need Jesus to hurt to forgive people's sins?!

It always costs something to forgive someone. For example, if someone owed a debt that they couldn't pay and you wanted to help them out, then the only way for you to cancel their debt would be for you to pay it for them in their place. The same would be true even if you were the holder of their debt because by wiping the books clear you would giving up the money that they owed you in order to concept their debt in their place. The wages of sin is death, so the only way for God to forgive out debt is to pay it in our place, which is why Jesus needed to die to pay the penalty for our sins.

 

[Diserner]

It always costs something to forgive someone. For example, if someone owed a debt that they couldn't pay and you wanted to help them out, then the only way for you to cancel their debt would be for you to pay it for them in their place. The same would be true even if you were the holder of their debt because by wiping the books clear you would giving up the money that they owed you in order to concept their debt in their place. The wages of sin is death, so the only way for God to forgive out debt is to pay it in our place, which is why Jesus needed to die to pay the penalty for our sins.

God could just forgive without killing an innocent person for it, and that would still in some sense cost by letting it go, without the Cross.

When your kid doesn't clean up your room, you don't go, "Wait, let me go murder the other good child who didn't clean his room so I can forgive you."

There's a lot more going on here.

 

[Soyeong]

God could just forgive without killing an innocent person for it, and that would still in some sense cost by letting it go, without the Cross.

When your kid doesn't clean up your room, you don't go, "Wait, let me go murder the other good child who didn't clean his room so I can forgive you."

There's a lot more going on here.

It costs something to forgive a kid, though the penalty for not cleaning a room is not dead, and Jesus is not some other good kid.

 

[Diserner]

It costs something to forgive a kid, though the penalty for not cleaning a room is not dead, and Jesus is not some other good kid.

Well, you successfully missed my point by over-literalizing the comparison.

Needless to say, the logic still stands.

Under your "system" there is no need for Jesus to die, since sin already costs God something before Jesus even dies.

 

[sethproton]

Well, you successfully missed my point by over-literalizing the comparison.

Needless to say, the logic still stands.

Under your "system" there is no need for Jesus to die, since sin already costs God something before Jesus even dies.

A thought to add in. Jesus was tortured, who was behind that . The father.
It is wrath and God sent Him to the cross

 

[Rockson]

It seems some people on here think Jesus suffered a little bit—but just enough to do something to make sins go away.

Ironic Dizerner that this might very well apply to you based on what a lot of people think happened to Jesus on the cross and when he died. Let's see if it does or maybe you do believe this. DO YOU BELIEVE that when Jesus died on the cross that he went to HELL that is the place where people are tormented? Do you believe he was there three days and nights? If you don't they would say, and I've heard some say that to those who don't believe that, that you think if Jesus just suffered a little bit it would be enough to make sin go away. So I'm interested....how do YOU answer that.

Why does God need Jesus to hurt to forgive people's sins?!

And we know Jesus wasn't just merely hurt but died. But why did this need to take place? Don't know but it does there needed to be substitution. One thing I'm not going to do though and get offended with God thinking I've got a better way. If he God chose to taste death for me and take it to give me LIFE that's his deal not mine. If substation is HIS WAY then I think we should humbly accept it.

 

[sethproton]

Ironic Dizerner that this might very well apply to you based on what a lot of people think happened to Jesus on the cross and when he died. Let's see if it does or maybe you do believe this. DO YOU BELIEVE that when Jesus died on the cross that he went to HELL that is the place where people are tormented? Do you believe he was there three days and nights? If you don't they would say, and I've heard some say that to those who don't believe that, that you think if Jesus just suffered a little bit it would be enough to make sin go away. So I'm interested....how do YOU answer that.

And we know Jesus wasn't just merely hurt but died. But why did this need to take place? Don't know but it does there needed to be substitution. One thing I'm not going to do though and get offended with God thinking I've got a better way. If he God chose to taste death for me and take it to give me LIFE that's his deal not mine. If substation is HIS WAY then I think we should humbly accept it.

the wrath He endured thru substitution? The old testmant is full of substitutions when animals covered men's sins and were brutally murdered

 

[Rockson]

A thought to add in. Jesus was tortured, who was behind that . The father.
It is wrath and God sent Him to the cross

I'd say it was the LOVE OF God that sent Jesus to the cross for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but should have eternal life. John 3:16 And it was a plan that God the Son and the Spirit likewise agreed to before Jesus even came, and God the Father said at his baptism this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased."

YES Jesus had to bear the penalty and judgement for sin, to be the substitute. If you're wanting to call it wrath I'm fine with that but you and Civic and one's like him ARE believing the same thing but in my estimation you're allowing Satan to cause a senseless spirit of division between you to tear you apart. Gentlemen I think we need to be smarter than that.

Everyone here EVERYONE....is believing the judgment for sin was horrific . Jesus had spikes driven into his hands......and feet. A spear was thrust into his side. He was whipped and beat and a crown of thorns was put on his head. Not one person on this web site denies that was true and all believe that was substitution . . Jesus died as our substitute. Why can't you just leave it at that. So what brother turns against brother demanding a certain word needs to be used.

Quite frankly if you don't mind me saying so I think it makes Jesus weep in heaven and causes him more pain then the spikes that tore his flesh then to see his children get into unnecessary ridiculous strife. I believe I've tried to bring peace between you all on this but I guess to no avail. Anyway God Bless and I sincerely hope you all work it out. I pray that you will.

 

[Diserner]

YES Jesus had to bear the penalty and judgement for sin, to be the substitute. If you're wanting to call it wrath I'm fine with that but you and Civic and one's like him ARE believing the same thing but in my estimation you're allowing Satan to cause a senseless spirit of division between you to tear you apart. Gentlemen I think we need to be smarter than that.

edit denies it's wrath.

edit denies it's punishment.

edit denies it's the full judgment of sin.

edit denies it's the Law and Justice of God with perfect equity of a sinner's wage.


Yet we "believe the same thing."

Take off the blinders man, I'm not the one "allowing edit" things here.

edit: discussing another poster.

 

[Diserner]

Everyone here EVERYONE....is believing the judgment for sin was horrific . Jesus had spikes driven into his hands......and feet. A spear was thrust into his side. He was whipped and beat and a crown of thorns was put on his head. Not one person on this web site denies that was true and all believe that was substitution . . Jesus died as our substitute. Why can't you just leave it at that. So what brother turns against brother demanding a certain word needs to be used.

Quite frankly if you don't mind me saying so I think it makes Jesus weep in heaven and causes him more pain then the spikes that tore his flesh then to see his children get into unnecessary ridiculous strife. I believe I've tried to bring peace between you all on this but I guess to no avail. Anyway God Bless and I sincerely hope you all work it out. I pray that you will.

"Certain words" huh.

Jesus demanded the "certain words" that only he is the way and the truth and the life.

Why did he demand those "certain" words?

Am I causing "disunity" by saying Buddha can't save?

Am I moving Jesus to tears and pain beyond hell itself, by saying the "certain words" that Jesus has to pay the price of sin?

You have nothing but fake piety here, trying to pretend the higher moral stance.

Doctrines matter, or why is the Bible even here?

Words matter, or why did Jesus say they are life or death?

This is the very REASON and PURPOSE and POWER of salvation, but.... it doesn't matter, and I'm the one "hurting" poor Jesus.

Puh-leeease.

Compromising vital core truths of salvation is not "pleasing" to God, it's pleasing to SATAN.