Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.
If you're going to reject the atonement, be consistent—REJECT IT ALL.
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
edit denies it's wrath.
edit denies it's punishment.
edit denies it's the full judgment of sin.
edit denies it's the Law and Justice of God with perfect equity of a sinner's wage.
Yet we "believe the same thing."
Take off the blinders man, I'm not the one "allowing Satan" things here.
Its to bad you don't believe Jesus and the Apostles teaching on the atonement and who killed Him. I believe exactly what Jesus taught about His atonement below. You believe what you have been taught. I go to the source for all truth, the One who is the truth, Jesus for my beliefs.
We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28
Who put Jesus to death, who was responsible ?
Acts 2:23
this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore, let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
Acts 4:10- Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…
Acts 5:30- The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree
Matthew 16:21
From that time on Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and scribes, and that He must be killed and on the third day be raised to life
Matthew 20:18-19
“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death and will deliver Him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. And on the third day He will be raised to life."
Matthew 27:1- When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:
Matthew 27:35- When they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments by casting lots.
Mark 15:24- And they crucified Him. They also divided His garments by casting lots to decide what each of them would take
conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.
hope this helps !!!
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sethproton
Active member
Did you read your first quote Acts 2:23?
Whose definite plan delivered Jesus to the wrath He experienced
The definite plan of God.
Whose definite plan delivered Jesus to the wrath He experienced
The definite plan of God.
civic
Well-known member
Plan is not wrath , nice try.
sethproton
Active member
I already addressed this edit statement. No! Plan and wrath are not the same thing Nobody siad they were, such a silly dodge on your part
edit: personal attack please address the argument not the post.
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civic
Well-known member
What is unbiblical is God the Father being angry, retributive, vengeful, indignation, fury, rage ( wrath means those things), at God the Son. It’s an oxymoron.
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civic
Well-known member
Amen to the biblical view and not the dark ages view of appeasing the angry gods.
Diserner
Well-known member
Sorry, some of us believe the BIBLE and not your chicken-soup-for-the-soul nonsense emotionally-driven daisy-chain permissive hippy God.
2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious.
The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies;
6 Who can stand before His indignation? And who can endure the fierceness of His anger?
His fury is poured out like fire, And the rocks are thrown down by Him. (Nah. 1:2-6 NKJ)
He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev. 19:15 NKJ)
civic
Well-known member
Yes and you have the Father angry avenging the Son. Enough said with your misused verses. A divided god against himself, it puts the dys in dysfunctional
Against unbelievers, yes. Against Jesus, NO!
Some of us do not believe in a pagan god who demands a pure sacrifice to assuage his fury, which would be a demented and deranged act.
civic
Well-known member
Exactly !!!
sethproton
Active member
here you go again Civic, You repeat your standard position and then claim that any opposition to your thinkin is oxymoronic but you don't say anything about what the oxymoron is
I know you are completely aware God laid His wrath on sacrificial animals, the ones wno took punishment for our sin in the OT
civic
Well-known member
Show any verse anywhere that states Gods wrath is on the animal sacrifice. Thanks
sethproton
Active member
2 Chron 29:10 show that wrath is turned away. That does not mean forgotten, dismissed. In Fact Hebrews teaches tgat OT sacrifice just rolled the sin forward and year and with it the wrath.
civic
Well-known member
Turned away is not wrath upon you are equivocating them. It supports what I believe. Jesus sacrifice turns away Gods wrath atoning and covering sin. Gods wrath remains on and falls upon those who have not believed in Gods provision through Christ.
Like you said previously in one of your writings, if God's wrath is assuaged at the Cross then what's the use/purpose of Judgment Day?
civic
Well-known member
Exactly
sethproton
Active member
why do you keep calling me a liar (equivocator)?
and why the silly arguments that you refuse to address when called on them? You make a useless statement which everyone knows and nobody argues "Turned away is not wrath," no they are diffferent, but wrath is what is turned away. in the OT it was turned away/rolled away for a year. Not dissappeared as you are teaching
civic
Well-known member
I did not use the word liar. Here is what I mean when I use the word. You are misusing the word wrath since the Bible not once used it with Christ being the recipient of Gods wrath.
And why didn’t you provide a verse stating Gods wrath/ anger is on the animal sacrifice ?
To equivocate is to say something in a way that can be understood multiple ways.
Maybe I’ll go with this : your argument is based upon faulty and unproven presuppositions. You have yet to prove from scripture wrath from God on the animal sacrifice and the same with the Fathers wrath/ anger on the Son.
hope this helps !!!
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