Humility And Calvinism?

[TibiasDad]

Such things take time and experience. There is no "puff" you're there.....

Nobody says that it’s a “puff you’re there” scenario. There is always a progressive movement in growth, and no body reaches absolute perfection in this life.


Doug

 

[synergy]

Which parts of Rom 7 are pre and which are post?

Doug

As far as my understanding of "the law of sin which is in my members*" goes, it affects both his pre-Christian and Christian states (all his life). Maybe someone out in the audience can create a table of Rom 7 verse number versus state.

* Evil desires, not that our bodies are evil. We're not Platonists.

 

[Studyman]

So you actually believe that is an answer?

What can I say, I believe in the Scriptures Jeshua taught from and Lived By.

I have no desire other than to know the absolute Truth. I abandon my religion as a young man and embraced God. I wanted to know what God has to say. Contrary to what you believe, there is no absolute and perfect "collection" of writings that have been preserved throughout all of human history that records every single word that God wants us to know. He still speaks today. He has never stopped speaking. It is what Abraham experienced. He was taught by God. Not by some written law or even oral traditions. He lived the Gospel. That is what all of us in Christ do. We live the Gospel. The written law you reference are for those who do not have such a relationship with God. Those without.......

This is a common thread throughout mainstream religions, "who come in Christ's Name". The result is a religious system of this world where literally hundreds of different religious sects and businesses compete with each other for butts to fill the pews in their manmade synagogues. All of them promoting a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of God He gave us in the examples HE had Written for our admonition, or as Paul also teaches, "For our Sakes no doubt".

Jeshua never once warned me to "Take Heed" of Moses or the Prophets or the Holy Scriptures. He said of men that were not persuaded to have Faith in God, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

He did warn me of religious men who call Him Lord, Lord, but don't believe the written Words of His Father, that HE said, cannot be broken.

That is why if you're lead by the Spirit of God, you are under no obligation to written words that can never perfectly guide every individual in every aspect of their lives to please God.

Walking in obedience to the Written Word is walking in the Spirit. I used to walk after the doctrines and traditions of this world's religious men, but God's Written Truth has set me free from their religious philosophies. Paul speaks to this.

Eph. 2: 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

We have His voice to guide us. Appealing to the Scriptures as if God is speaking directly to YOU.... is rather empty isn't it???? It only gets you so far with God.

By reason of use, I have not found this to be the case at all. God's Written Word has remedies, shows escapes and teaching about anything that can happen to me in my Exodus out of sin. He has written everything I need, according to my personal experience, and according to Paul's Word, "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

Never said he was. He did know Melchizedek personally.

Yes, the Levitical Priesthood was not "ADDED" until 430 years later and was only to be in place until God's Priest "After the Order of Melchizedek" was to come.

Never said differently. My issue is with the false distinctions of ceremonial law/etc....

I agree that it is important to understand the purpose of the "Feasts of the Lord", and understand that manmade high days mean nothing, they are a shadow of nothing "to come".

 

[TibiasDad]

As far as my understanding of "the law of sin which is in my members*" goes, it affects both his pre-Christian and Christian states (all his life). Maybe someone out in the audience can create a table of Rom 7 verse number versus state.

* Evil desires, not that our bodies are evil. We're not Platonists.

The question is not whether the sinful nature is in us as believers, it is who is in control of us. A Christian cannot be both a prisoner of sin and in bondage to it and be set free from it at the same time.

If we are dead to sin, sin cannot be in control unless we let it. That is not the picture in 7:14-ff. That Paul is completely bound and at the whim of his sinful nature. (This, “not me, but the sinful nature.”)

Doug

 

[praise_yeshua]

What can I say, I believe in the Scriptures Jeshua taught from and Lived By.


This is a common thread throughout mainstream religions, "who come in Christ's Name". The result is a religious system of this world where literally hundreds of different religious sects and businesses compete with each other for butts to fill the pews in their manmade synagogues. All of them promoting a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of God He gave us in the examples HE had Written for our admonition, or as Paul also teaches, "For our Sakes no doubt".

Jeshua never once warned me to "Take Heed" of Moses or the Prophets or the Holy Scriptures. He said of men that were not persuaded to have Faith in God, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

He did warn me of religious men who call Him Lord, Lord, but don't believe the written Words of His Father, that HE said, cannot be broken.

We share the desire to see "things different" than what they currently are in this life. I saddens me greatly to see such things but they didn't happen overnight. They happened a very long time ago.

In fact, If man had heeded God, there would be far more words preserved from God to humanity than what they are left today. It is a difficult for me to watch you recognize the sin of humanity yet refuse to acknowledge the sin of humanity that impacted the preservation of Scriptures.

I would to God that I knew what Paul knew in its entirety. I do not. What we have left is a joy to possess but the idea that what we have enough in and of itself is ridiculous.

We have the voice of God through the Spirit of God to guide us. That is what Paul had. We have that self same Spirit. His voice matters every day of our lives.

 

[synergy]

The question is not whether the sinful nature is in us as believers,

A FYI for our audience:

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it is who is in control of us. A Christian cannot be both a prisoner of sin and in bondage to it and be set free from it at the same time.

If we are dead to sin, sin cannot be in control unless we let it. That is not the picture in 7:14-ff. That Paul is completely bound and at the whim of his sinful nature. (This, “not me, but the sinful nature.”)

Doug

That's why a Christian needs to choose: evil desires or the Spirit.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nobody says that it’s a “puff you’re there” scenario. There is always a progressive movement in growth, and no body reaches absolute perfection in this life.


Doug

I was dealing with the theological perspective of Prevenient Grace. I'm dealing with what you and others believe about Total Depravity and the necessity of Prevenient Grace.

I said things you do not understand and can't given your perspective. It is why we argue like we do about this and never get anywhere......

The idea that Adam was instantly gifted the "image of God" is preposterous. Such can not be gifted relative to the perspective of the willingness of the receiver.

You will always see simple compliance as being meaningful to God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A FYI for our audience:

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That's why a Christian needs to choose: evil desires or the Spirit.

The narrative of our existence is dependent such willful conformity.

It is Christ WINNING us of our own volition. Nothing less than this and there is no meaning relative to Character in our conformity.

If God could make someone in His own image and after His own likeness....... via instance means, then what value/uniqueness does that place upon the Character of God.

Nothing less than what has happened in humanity's existence would ever create humanity in God's own likeness relative to willingness of Character.

 

[TibiasDad]

A FYI for our audience:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/irresistible-grace.340/post-66169

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

QED

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

A FYI for our audience:

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That's why a Christian needs to choose: evil desires or the Spirit.

Paul couldn’t choose to do good, even though he wanted to do so:

Rom 7:14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I was dealing with the theological perspective of Prevenient Grace.

That’s not what PG says!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I'm dealing with what you and others believe about Total Depravity and the necessity of Prevenient Grace.

What about TD or PG says “puff your good”?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

The idea that Adam was instantly gifted the "image of God" is preposterous. Such can not be gifted relative to the perspective of the willingness of the receiver.

You will always see simple compliance as being meaningful to God.

When have I ever said “Adam was instantly gifted the "image of God"”.

The image of God is given as a gift, but as the foundational principle of our being at creation. We were created in the image of God!

Doug

 

[TomL]

They were not allowed to eat that stuff. Note what Peter said in Acts 10 (and no it wasn't that he could eat pork now. He knew the vision meant to call no man unclean. Shortly after, he was sent to the home of Cornelius, a Gentile.

Um Are you advocating for Old Testament dietary laws?

Colossians 2:16–23 (KJV 1900) — 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[synergy]

18For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. c For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Sorry mate. NIV (or NLT) by its lonesome is not QED. No other translation says "sinful nature".

Let's examine the Koine Greek, shall we?

(Rom 7:18) οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

σαρκί translates to flesh which is the term overwhelmingly used by all translations except for NIV & NLT.

Stop being a Platonist. It is not nature that sins, it is us as a person who sins. God did not create a sinful nature. He is not a pagan god that creates sinful things. Our human nature came straight from God. God does not produce sinful anything, let alone a sin nature. Only pagan gods produce sinful things. It is us, as persons, who sin and degrade ourselves. Granted, our bodies do decay and die but that is a consequence of Adam's sin and not because God is in the business of creating sinful nature.

If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have?

Newsflash! It's not human nature that sins. People sin.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That’s not what PG says!

Doug

Sure it is.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sorry mate. NIV (or NLT) by its lonesome is not QED. No other translation says "sinful nature".

Let's examine the Koine Greek, shall we?

(Rom 7:18) οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι οὐκ οἰκεῖ ἐν ἐμοί, τοῦτ᾿ ἔστιν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου, ἀγαθόν· τὸ γὰρ θέλειν παράκειταί μοι, τὸ δὲ κατεργάζεσθαι τὸ καλὸν οὐχ εὑρίσκω.

σαρκί translates to flesh which is the term overwhelmingly used by all translations except for NIV & NLT.

Stop being a Platonist. It is not nature that sins, it is us as a person who sins. God did not create a sinful nature. He is not a pagan god that creates sinful things. Our human nature came straight from God. God does not produce sinful anything, let alone a sin nature. Only pagan gods produce sinful things. It is us, as persons, who sin and degrade ourselves. Granted, our bodies do decay and die but that is a consequence of Adam's sin and not because God is in the business of creating sinful nature.

If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have?

Newsflash! It's not human nature that sins. People sin.

Yep.

It is found at least 160 times in the Greek OT is always a reference to "flesh". It is used interchangeably with animals and all creatures of the earth. It is the reason that Paul appeals to how all of creation is subjected together unwillingly in "hope" of redemption.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Adam declared that Eve was now "bone of my bone", "FLESH of my flesh". An appeal to the Incarnation of Christ. "God among us in flesh".

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

It is irrevocably linked to a "bodily" form. Notice the words "body of the sins of the flesh". Taken from the ashes of destruction. Adam was fabricated incomplete. "A work in progress". When God said "let us make man in our own image" is written in the very Character of God. A work still yet incomplete until our bodies/flesh is changed. Our perfection is not complete without the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This world have never been the home of humanity. We are a heavenly people. A purposed royal priesthood of believers. Seeds planted in a dying garden.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Studyman]

We share the desire to see "things different" than what they currently are in this life. I saddens me greatly to see such things but they didn't happen overnight. They happened a very long time ago.

I see the same thing in many of your posts, and I agree with you, these things happened long ago, and God had many these events written down for our admonition, in my view anyway.

In fact, If man had heeded God, there would be far more words preserved from God to humanity than what they are left today. It is a difficult for me to watch you recognize the sin of humanity yet refuse to acknowledge the sin of humanity that impacted the preservation of Scriptures.

I understand the philosophy you refer to here. And truly, many disregard God's Word because of the same reason you posted. And truly men have worked to influence the Scriptures. But for me, I'm not convinced that God is not capable of preserving His Truth through the Scriptures. Paul trusted them, Yeshua trusted them, Peter, Zacharias and Simeon, in Luke 1&2, trusted in the Scriptures.

For me, surely God knew about the Bibles we have when HE promoted the Holy Scriptures through Jesus and His Apostles.

So while I understand your point about the Scriptures, I also believe that God is able, and actually did preserve His Truth in them "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

I would to God that I knew what Paul knew in its entirety. I do not. What we have left is a joy to possess but the idea that what we have enough in and of itself is ridiculous.

We have the voice of God through the Spirit of God to guide us. That is what Paul had. We have that self same Spirit. His voice matters every day of our lives.

Again, I appreciate your views, but Paul was accused of teaching against the Laws of God. Here is his response, (I know you know the Scriptures, but it is my practice of posting them anyway, for those who may not, I mean no offense to you)

Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. 14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

His Word in me, Speaks to me every "Now" that exists throughout the day.

 

[synergy]

Yep.

It is found at least 160 times in the Greek OT is always a reference to "flesh". It is used interchangeably with animals and all creatures of the earth. It is the reason that Paul appeals to how all of creation is subjected together unwillingly in "hope" of redemption.

Adam declared that Eve was now "bone of my bone", "FLESH of my flesh". An appeal to the Incarnation of Christ. "God among us in flesh".

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

It is irrevocably linked to a "bodily" form. Notice the words "body of the sins of the flesh". Taken from the ashes of destruction. Adam was incomplete. When God said "let us make man in our own image" is written in the very Character of God. A work still yet incomplete until our bodies/flesh is changed. Our perfection is not complete without the Resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This world have never been the home of humanity. We are a heavenly people. A purposed royal priesthood of believers. Seeds planted in a dying garden.


1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Absolutely correct.

As for the NIV, I noticed how inconsistent it is when it translates σαρκί as "sinful nature" in Rom 7:18 and σὰρξ (has same root as σαρκί) as "flesh" in John 1:14. It dare not ascribe sinful nature to Jesus! That borders on disingenuity on the part of the NIV. I'm wondering if anyone has made a study on how many times the NIV has misled Believers.

 

[synergy]

That is what some preachers who call Jesus Lord, Lord promote. But when a person actually reads what is actually written, the Pharisees "Full well rejected" the Letter of the Law, so they could keep their own manmade traditions, their own manmade judgments, their own manmade righteousness.

I know we have been taught by preachers in the synagogues and in the streets since our youth, that the Pharisees obeyed God's Law trying to please God or earn favor. This teaching is a deception, a falsehood, a lie. We are told to "take heed" of these deceivers who come in Christ's Name, to test the spirits, and prove all things. To believe the Pharisees were keeping the letter of the law is to deny "EVERY" Word Jesus spoke about them. I posted God's Inspired Word through Isaiah which defined them. But no one seemed to care.

Now there were members of God's church that the Jews persecuted, who did obey God's Law. You can read about them in the Law and Prophets, as well as Luke 1 & 2.

Paul labels the Letter of the Law as "oldness". We are now free from the oldness of the Letter of the Law and serve in the newness of the Spirit.

(Rom 7:6) But now we having been set free from the Law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Even primary ordinances can be abrogated such as circumcision.

That's not to say that we can do away with the Law. The Law is fulfilled in Christ when we believe in Christ and continue to do so.

Thanks for the question. The answer as to why men deviate from God is probably the easiest question to answer. We can look at the examples Paul said were written for our admonition. Why did Eve deviate? Is it not because she listened to a voice, who professed to know God, but by his works denied Him? And in every case, every example in the Scriptures of men who deviated, turned away from God's instruction, and walked in their own. "EVERY" time a man deviated is because they heard, but didn't "DO" what was instructed by God.

EVERY TIME.

Jesus didn't deviate even once. How did HE do this? According to His Own Words, "And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Jesus speaks of " Many Christians" in Matt. 7. These Christians called Him their Savior, they taught in His Name, they helped others in His Name and did "many" wonderful works, all in Jesus' Name.

But what does Jesus tell them? And then will I profess unto them, "I never knew you": depart from me, ye that "work iniquity".

God's LAW is the Armor HE gives us to withstand the wicked influences of this world, including its religions "Who profess to know Him". We are instructed to "put the armor on".

But we have deceiving voices in the garden God places us in, just as Eve did, who promote philosophies like "God's Law only brings death", "Obedience to God is a false gospel", "God placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of men who trusted in Him", "God judge's men according to the DNA they were born with", and on and on and on.

In the Bible, when men adopted these deceiving voices, like Eve and the Pharisees did, they deviate from the Christ, the Holy One of Israel, the Law giver.

But in the same Bible, those who, like Zacharias, Abraham, Simeon, Caleb and EVERY example of Faith, who were "Doers" of God's Laws, and not hearers only, they and their family were blessed, as God promised. This has been true from the very beginning.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; 5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I know this world's religions preach against this "Way of the Lord" but I learned the lesson of the example of Eve, so I take God and His Son's instruction seriously, and as a result, I don't adopt these deceptions.

2 Cor. 11: 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Great question.

Looks like I was not clear enough in my question. Sorry about that. Let me be more clear. I'm trying to get a handle on where we (you and I) deviate and why. It looks like you put an accent on the Law. Is that correct? I put an accent on the Law Giver, Christ.