Titus
Active member
Give scripture for this water to flesh statement.
How do you reason this is Nicodemus' understanding of Jesus' teaching?
He that believes and is not water baptised is saved
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How do you reason this is Nicodemus' understanding of Jesus' teaching?
Doug Brents
Well-known member
There is only one savior: God. God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are ONE. Not three. Yes, Jesus is the one who died for our sins, and He was the Man who was also God who became the sacrifice for our sins. And Scripture says, as I have pointed out, that the Spirit is the one doing the work through the power of the blood of Jesus to remove our sin.
Precisely, all work together because all three are ONE.
Your opinion is noted, but shown to be false, and so is ignored.
Titus
Active member
You gave zero scripture that says in baptism the Holy Spirit takes our sins away. Because you cannot.
Again no Scripture that says in baptism the Holy Spirit forgives sins. Because you cannot.
Opinions are shown when you cannot give any Scripture for your beliefs.
Again no Scripture given that the Holy Spirit takes our sins away in baptism. Because you cannot.
Heritical man made doctrine that cannot be backed up with book, chapter and verse.
Titus
Active member
So you admit the Holy Spirit did the work to remove our sins.
Give Scripture that it is the Spirit's work and not Jesus' work on the cross that washes our sins away?
Alive
Member
Before Jesus’ public ministry began, John the Baptist contrasted his own water-baptism with the Spirit-baptism which the Holy Spirit would administer.
I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit Mark 1:8
Before His ascension, looking on to Pentecost, Jesus drew the same contrast:
John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit” Acts 1:5
I have baptized you with water; but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit Mark 1:8
Before His ascension, looking on to Pentecost, Jesus drew the same contrast:
John baptized with water, but before many days you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit” Acts 1:5
Doug Brents
Well-known member
This contrast does not indicate anything regarding salvation and baptism. John's baptism was not for salvation, and the Holy Spirit's baptism of fire was not for salvation.
It is water baptism, the only baptism of any relevance to the NT Christ follower (Eph 4:5, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, Matt 28:19, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16) that is connected with salvation.
MTMattie
Well-known member
Pay attention. Especially to verses 5 and 6
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews ;
2. this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these that You do unless God is with him.”
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 .Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
Now I will stop here to comment for there is no reason to go beyond this point. Nick wants to know how to make it to heaven and Jesus tells him he needs to be born again. and when Nick believes that Jesus meant from his mother Nick wants to know how.. Jesus further . You need to be born of water and you need to be born of the spirit. He never tells Nick a water baptism is needed. Even though the Pharisees knew that John was Baptizing people... and even came to see him. Not to be baptised but I believe to observe. See John 3:7
And that which is born of the flesh, and of the Spirit = born again.
There is no water mentioned for this.
Jesus does continue...
8. The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9. Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10. Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?"
If , as a Pharisee, Nick knew about baptism, beyond mikvehs .. Jesus would never have had to say this to him.
11Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.
12. If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
14. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
and He finishes with.
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
So allow me to paraphrase Jesus a bit and say..."
“Are you a quasi- teacher of the four corners of the Holy scriptures and do not understand these things as Jesus has said?"
Then it is obvious you are clueless of what being born again spiritually means and how that applies to our eternities.
Titus
Active member
What's the water?
Titus
Active member
Never tells a jew that John's water baptism is necessary?
Have you not read,
Luke 7:30,
- but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves not having been baptized by John
Gods will is for all the jews to be baptized by John.
Tell me again Jesus who is God in the flesh never tells Nicodemus to do the will of God by being baptized by John for the forgiveness of his sins.
Mark 1:4,
- John did baptize in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins
MTMattie
Well-known member
He never told Nicodemus baptism was needed to be born again.
MTMattie
Well-known member
That which breaks when a woman is about to give birth. Accurately it is the amniotic fluid .
The entire purpose of Jesus' exchange with Nicodemus was to emphasize the spirit and spiritual rebirth.
This Spiritual rebirth is about more than changing your beliefs or adopting new habits; it’s about an internal transformation. This rebirth is often also described as being “born of the Spirit.” In simple terms, it’s the moment when you awaken to your true, divine nature. It's when you realize that you are more than just a body living in a physical world. It’s the awareness that there’s a spiritual dimension to life that governs who you really are.
For Nicodemus, this was a revolutionary idea. (I submit it is a revolutionary idea to many who call themselves Christian's today) To someone so steeped in religious law, like Nick, the idea of a new kind of life—one not based on rules but on an inner transformation—was difficult to grasp.
Nick knew all about water baths that were call mikvehs, and he also , as a Pharisee of the time, would have known about John's baptism....
but you have to remember when Jesus sent out the apostles they were told to Baptize in the name of the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit.... not just John's baptism. If it was integral to what Nicodemus was seeking to know... that is what Jesus would have told him.
mailmandan
Well-known member
Amen! Moral self-reformation/behavior modification in of itself is not a substitute for regeneration. Those who are born again are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and are partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) We have been changed. Praise God!
Those who are born again, have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. (1 Peter 1:23)
Titus
Active member
Prove it with Scripture.
You just told me what you think ir is.
You gave no scriptural evidence.
Doesn't make sense for Jesus to tell this to Nicodemus.
Therefore your interpretation doesn't fit the context.
Jesus said to Nicodemus, John 3:5,
- Must be born of a womens amniotic fluid(water) and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom
So according to your theology Jesus is telling Nicodemus that water from a women's womb is required to enter the kingdom of God.
John 3:5,
- unless ye are born of water and the Spirit ye cannot enter the Kingdom of God
So those who are born from a dry birth could not enter the Kingdom.
Your interpretation is only as old as John Calvin.
Jesus who is God never told Nicodemus to do Gods will for all the Jews by being baptized by John.
John chapter 3 both Jesus and John the baptist are water baptizing
John 3:5 ; 22-23,
- after these things cane Jesus and His disciples into the land of Judea and there He tarried with them and baptized
- and John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim because there was much water there and they came and were baptized
Very next chapter John 4:1-2,
- When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees(Nicodemus was a Pharisee) had heard that Jesus made made and baptized more disciples than John though Jesus Himself baptized not but His disciples
So we see at this time in John chater 3 Jesus and John baptizing all the jews.
But you are teaching me that Jesus never told Nicodemus to be baptized in water?
Gods will is that ALL, ALL, ALL, the Jews be baptized by John for the forgiveness of their sins,
Mark 1:4,
- John did baptize in the wilderness and preach the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins
- and there went out to John ALL THE LAND OF JUDEA AND THEY OF JERUSALEM AND WERE ALL, ALL, ALL, BAPTIZED OF JOHN IN THE RIVER OF JORDAN CONFESSING THEIR SINS
Are you going to tell me again that Jesus never told Nicodemus to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of his sins?
Luke 7:30,
- but the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God(Jesus is God) against themselves being NOT baptized of Him
So MTMattie, Jesus never told Nicodemus to do the will of God.
That's your lesson.
Its awfully hard to swallow!
Nicodemus was not like the Pharisees that rejected Jesus' baptism.
For he was a faithful follower of Christ.
In the book of John we learn Joseph and Nicodemus bury their Savior in John 19:38-42,
- and after this Joseph of Arimathea being a disciple of Jesus but secretly for fear of the Jews besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus and Pilate gave him leave he cane therefore and took the body of Jesus
- and there came also Nicodemus which at the first came to [Jesus by night] and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes about an hundred pounds by weight and they took the body of Jesus and wound it in linen clothes with the spices as the manner of the Jews to bury
John 3:1,
- There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus a ruler of the jews,
- He came to Jesus by night...
The only people who cannot see that Jesus is preaching the baptism of John in water to Nicodemus in John 3:5, are those who follow a theology that will not allow water baptism to be for the forgiveness of sins.
Mark 1:4;8
- John did baptize in the wilderness and preach the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins
- I indeed have baptized you with water but Jesus shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit
Doug Brents
Well-known member
And it is spiritual rebirth that requires both the Spirit and water. This has nothing to do with amniotic fluid (natural birth).
Titus
Active member
Mark 1:4,
- preaching the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins
Acts 2:38,
- then Peter said to them repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins
Matthew 26:28,
- for this is My blood of the new covenant which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins
MTMattie
Well-known member
My interpretation fits just fine.
Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews ;
2. this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these that You do unless God is with him.”
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
This is what Jesus said. Correct?
4 .Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
Did Jesus correct him as being wrong?
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus said unless one is born of water and also the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God?
Jesus never said to him unless one is immersed into water he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus never said to him unless one gets Paul's baptism he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus never said to him unless one gets baptized into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Jesus DID SAY
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
That which is born of flesh is only flesh???????????????????????????????????????????????????
Some further interpretations. (Not mine)
KJV says ...That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
God's Word says ....Flesh and blood give birth to flesh and blood, but the Spirit gives birth to things that are spiritual.
Good News says ... A person is born physically of human parents, but is born spiritually of the Spirit.
NIV says....Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
NLT says ... Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.
Berean Literal... That having been born of the flesh is flesh, and that having been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Christian Standard and Holman Christian ...Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Weymouth NT ..Whatever has been born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever has been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Young's Literal ... that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
Smith's Literal ... That born of flesh is flesh; and that born of the Spirit is spirit.
New American and New Revised ... What is born of flesh is flesh and what is born of Spirit is spirit.
Lamsa .....What is born of flesh is flesh; and what is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Aramaic Bible... That which is born from flesh is flesh, and that which is born from The Spirit is spirit.
Anderson NT ... That which is begotten of the flesh, is flesh; and that which is begotten of the Spirit, is spirit.
IF YOU WANT MORE.... BIBLE HUB HAS A NICE LIST.
ηλίθια δήλωση
You are not born again from water.
mailmandan
Well-known member
In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). In that case, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, "flesh" birth (accompanied by amniotic "water") and the second is Spirit.
There are also those who would point out that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and connects it with everlasting life and also in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.
Now if "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
Yet there are still others who point out that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)
So to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.
Titus
Active member
You gave no Scriptural that teaches water is birthing fluid that comes out of the women during natural birth. Then according to you Jesus never told Nicodemus to do the will of God by being baptized.
Also according to you no one can be in the kingdom if they had a dry birth.
Do you tell people who are lost: "You must be physically born to enter the Kingdom?
I know you have never taught anyone that that must be physically born to be saved.
Your interpretation is silly Sir.
Correct.
Notice: What is Jesus teaching on?
Physical birth
Or
Being born again? Spiritual birth.
Nicodemus thought he was teaching on being physically born again.
That is NOT what Jesus is teaching.
Jesus is teaching ONLY about being born again spiritually.
Therefore John 3:5 is spiritual birth not physical as you teach.
For the water to be physical, you leave the context of Jesus' teaching.
It's all about spiritual birth.
Do you think water baptism is physical or spiritual?
MTMattie
Well-known member
Whatever.
Titus
Active member
At least explain what your belief is on water baptism.
Is it physical or spiritual?
This interpretation that water is birthing fluid is silly.
I'm not trying to insult you Sir.
If I offended you, it was not my intention.
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