Gods Inability to save

[brightfame52]

@Eternally-Grateful

4. So he dies for ALL, He makes redemption AVAILABLE to all.

A false statement nowhere in the bible, Redemption is an accomplished fact for them He died for Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

They have been actually redeemed from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Nothing about being made available ! Thats selling redemption short !

 

[TedT]

WHEN do we become liable sinners?

As soon as we sin we are sinners liable to death because death is the wages of sin, not a consequence of being alive. Death proves sin.

In humans zygotes and embryos die at any age so age and intellectual ability as humans is NOT a criteria for our sinfulness...

Sin only accrues to a person who rebels against GOD.
Only sinners die.
Ergo, babies are sinners.
I interpret scripture and you give me dogmatic platitudes, eg, babies are not sinful.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

As soon as we sin we are sinners liable to death because death is the wages of sin, not a consequence of being alive. Death proves sin.

In humans zygotes and embryos die at any age so age and intellectual ability as humans is NOT a criteria for our sinfulness...

Sin only accrues to a person who rebels against GOD.
Only sinners die.
Ergo, babies are sinners.
I interpret scripture and you give me dogmatic platitudes, eg, babies are not sinful.

but were we not born dead, being in Adam?

 

[TedT]

It's precisely our free will (that God gifted to man) that made Adam sin OF HIS OWN FREE WILL....
and nothing to do with God.

Excellent!! I can't agree more!
But,
it is not Adam's sin I claim orthodoxy covertly accuses GOD for but the sins of all other humans from their supposed creation at conception (or birth) onwards as sinners in Adam!! Their being under the commandment, wages, for sin proves their sinfulness.

IF death does not prove sinfulness, then why did our Lord link them by telling us that death was the wages of sin? Was He merely spouting platitudes?

Somehow or other, evil entered into the world and we certainly cannot say that God created evil...
what a horror to serve such a God.

I agree 100%! So I cannot agree that HE created us sinners in Adam's sin! Where is the loving justice in HIM doing that??? Where is HIS holiness?

People think GOD creates evil on earth because 0rthodoxy teaches us that HE does create evil people every time HE creates a new sinner in Adam! What law of HIS nature forces HIM to create us this way instead of as innocent the way HE created Adam and the reasons to repudiate the current interpretation of our creation are many...

Isaiah 9:16 For those who guide this people have been leading them astray, and those who are guided by them are swallowed up. may not just refer to the distant past, sigh.

Ther ei sno reason and th eSo, somehow, the sin of Adam affected all of us.
But we are not responsible, personally, for it.
We just suffer its effect.

Except this contradicts Ezekiel 18:20 "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself". and the verses like it.

I know I've said all this before, but it's what scripture teaches.

It is what you interpret the verses to be teaching...even if it contradicts other verses.

You do realize this is reincarnation in a sense.

If you believe this then you do not understand reincarnation nor PCE at all. There is no [re] in pce, just the one incarnation of HIS sinful elect to redeem them and train them in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11.

Jesus is speaking about the tares and the wheat...
the saved and the lost...
the wise and the foolish...
those who obey and those that do not.

YES! And He tells us that the saved and the lost were alive, (they existed) before they were sown, ie, conceived, into mankind!!! How did they choose to sin if 0rthodoxy is right and they are created at conception as sinners, either elect of reprobate?

So what's the purpose of the gospel?

The purpose of the gospel is twofold:
1. It teaches the sinful sheep the way back to GOD through the only gate to HIM, Jesus Christ, once the Holy Spirit has opened their eyes to their sinfulness and their need for a saviour from their enslavement to sin.

2. And it separates the sinful good seed from the sinful reprobate weeds. The believers (at birth) who are sinners are not condemned but the sinners at birth who have never believed are condemned already, Jn 3:18. What is this belief that separates the two groups of sinners? It is the belief in the truth that YHWH proclaimed to every person under heaven, the gospel, Col 1:23.

The gospel is the truth that all the wicked know yet which they exchange for a lie because they love sin more, Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. ... 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen.

 

[Doug Brents]

but were we not born dead, being in Adam?

No, we were not. We inherited Adam's sin nature, not the guilt of the sin.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No, we were not. We inherited Adam's sin nature, not the guilt of the sin.

in adam all die

thats Gods perfect plan

No one will go to hell for personal sin. Jesu paid that debt on the cross.

that leaves us with two options

recieve his grace. and be saved from condemnation

or remain in unbelief, and suffer the death of condemnation.

 

[Doug Brents]

in adam all die

Why do they die? Because all sin.

thats Gods perfect plan

No one will go to hell for personal sin. Jesu paid that debt on the cross.

So your claiming universalism? No, the vast majority of mankind will go to Hell. And each will be judged based upon what they themselves have done (2 Cor 5:10, Rev 20:13, Rom 2:6). Not what Adam did.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Why do they die? Because all sin.

no. In adam all die

not in sin all die..

So your claiming universalism? No, the vast majority of mankind will go to Hell. And each will be judged based upon what they themselves have done (2 Cor 5:10, Rev 20:13, Rom 2:6). Not what Adam did.

No. do you ever listen to anyone

Everyone is dead in adam, the human race is placed in adam. this way God can remove the personal sin issue, die on the cross for it. And then offer salvation to everyone (in Christ shall all be made alive)

we are saved by grace,, But God does not force us to receive his gift. He offers it to us, but demands we repent and recieve it in faith..

 

[Doug Brents]

no. In adam all die

not in sin all die..

Rom 5:12 - death entered the world through sin, and death spread to all men. Why?

No. do you ever listen to anyone

Yes, frequently, but only when they make sense.

Everyone is dead in adam,

No, everyone is dead in sin.

the human race is placed in adam. this way God can remove the personal sin issue, die on the cross for it. And then offer salvation to everyone (in Christ shall all be made alive)

All who are in Christ will be made alive, but not everyone will be in Christ (but this is a separate issue). Death entered the world through one man (Adam) and salvation entered the world through one man (Jesus). Each person sins, and so each person dies because of that sin. And each person can be saved from death if they enter into Christ.

we are saved by grace,, But God does not force us to receive his gift. He offers it to us, but demands we repent and recieve it in faith..

Almost all the way there, but correct as far as it goes.

 

[TedT]

but were we not born dead, being in Adam?

DEAD, YES! Rom 5:12
Berean Standard Bible
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. which is interpreted by pce to mean because all have sinned already by their free will rebellion to GOD pre-earth, ie, only sinners are sown into this world, Matt 13:36-39.

We are born into Adam's DEATH, not his sin as so many feel the need to interpret this to say because they have no idea of our pre-earth existence and fall.

Why are we sown into Adam's death? So that Christ need only die once for Adam to encompass all the elect and not once for each and every elect sinner on earth over and over again.

 

[TedT]

No, we were not. We inherited Adam's sin nature, not the guilt of the sin.

Then infants in utero would never die.

 

[Doug Brents]

DEAD, YES!

NO!

Rom 5:12
Berean Standard Bible
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.

Why was death passed to all men?

BECAUSE ALL MEN HAVE SINNED!!!

 

[TedT]

no. In adam all die

YES! We were put into Adam NOT to inherit his sin but to come under his death so Christ need die but once for all sinful believers.

 

[TedT]

NO!

Why was death passed to all men?

BECAUSE ALL MEN HAVE SINNED!!!

I agree. All have sinned by choosing by their free will to rebel against their GOD...even the infants who die in the womb.

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree. All have sinned by choosing by their free will to rebel against their GOD...even the infants who die in the womb.

Nope. Infants who die in the womb did not sin. Sin demands a knowledge of right and wrong and a choice to do wrong. Where there is no law, sin is not imputed (Rom 5:13). So since in infant does not know anything about law (right and wrong) it cannot be imputed with sin.

 

[TedT]

Nope. Infants who die in the womb did not sin. Sin demands a knowledge of right and wrong and a choice to do wrong. Where there is no law, sin is not imputed (Rom 5:13). So since in infant does not know anything about law (right and wrong) it cannot be imputed with sin.

Except they have chosen by their free will to rebel against their GOD.

You discount babies too much...

GOD told Rebecca that Jacob and Esau knew enough about the nature of Hebrew politics to fight each other (to actually try to crush each other to pieces)...

John knew Mary's voice when he was in the womb...

And: we all can learn wisdom and faith while still in the womb:
Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

6 Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb;
you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

If we can learn wisdom and faith in the womb we can also reject wisdom and faith in the womb, ie, sin, since we are sinful at conception, though I contend, not BY our conception.

ALSO: death is the wages for sin. This means that death proves sinfulness or Jesus was babbling when He told us this truth.

 

[MTMattie]

YES! And He tells us that the saved and the lost were alive, (they existed) before they were sown, ie, conceived, into mankind!!! How did they choose to sin if 0rthodoxy is right and they are created at conception as sinners, either elect of reprobate?

Your opinion, for I have none. But do you think when they were alive before coming to be men that they asked to be born?

2. And it separates the sinful good seed from the sinful reprobate weeds. The believers (at birth) who are sinners are not condemned but the sinners at birth who have never believed are condemned already, Jn 3:18. What is this belief that separates the two groups of sinners? It is the belief in the truth that YHWH proclaimed to every person under heaven, the gospel, Col 1:23.

And those who came to earth were sinners at the moment of conception or birth?

 

[GodsGrace]

All as in all who ever lived? Can you be more specific? For instance, did Christ die for those who had already passed in unbelief?

YES Presby.
Jesus died for ALL MEN.

ALL.
Even those who never come to believe.

Please don't change the subject.


Have you figured out why all men are not saved if it's what a sovereign God desires??

 

[GodsGrace]

So 1 Timothy is referring to kinds of people, hence he says to also pray for kings and those in aufhority.

Right.
Kings are part of ALL people.

 

[GodsGrace]

As soon as we sin we are sinners liable to death because death is the wages of sin, not a consequence of being alive. Death proves sin.

In humans zygotes and embryos die at any age so age and intellectual ability as humans is NOT a criteria for our sinfulness...

Sin only accrues to a person who rebels against GOD.
Only sinners die.
Ergo, babies are sinners.
I interpret scripture and you give me dogmatic platitudes, eg, babies are not sinful.

Dogmatic platitude?
When I get my computer back...I'll be posting as to WHY babies are not responsible for sin.