Gods Inability to save

[civic]

The doctrine of total inability doctrine has it all wrong. Its God who is unable to save everyone. So much for the reformed doctrine of Sovereignty. The reality is God does not control mans faith, choice to reveive/believe the gospel or reject it. That on man as we read below.

God saves those who come near to Him.

God cannot save everyone as God is not able to save everyone. God saves those who come to Him by faith.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17;For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18;Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”

Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

 

[JoshebB]

The doctrine of total inability doctrine has it all wrong. Its God who is unable to save everyone.

That is just dumb.

God is almighty and the doctrine of total depravity (or inability) does not, in any way, contradict God's omni-attributes. From the avenue taken in this op, the way to understand Total Depravity is that God and God alone is the only one who can save a sinner from his/her sin...... and He uses nothing sinful to do so.

 

[civic]

That is just dumb.

God is almighty and the doctrine of total depravity (or inability) does not, in any way, contradict God's omni-attributes. From the avenue taken in this op, the way to understand Total Depravity is that God and God alone is the only one who can save a sinner from his/her sin...... and He uses nothing sinful to do so.

If God is all powerful and its His will that none perish then there is an inability to save everyone. And another thing why pray for Gods will to be done on earth as it is in heaven,. We know Gods will is being done in heaven but not on this earth. We see this in the daily lives of "believers" all of the time regarding sin and disobedience.

 

[JoshebB]

God saves those who come near to Him.

No one comes near Him for salvation unless God is already at work in that individual for the purpose of salvation or judgment.

You are invited to provide an example of a non-saved sinner initiating his/her own coming to God for salvation absent God having already been at work in that individual.

Keep in mind the fact most of the Bible is about people already living in a God-initiated Christological covenant. Very few examples exist of interactions with God outside the covenant relationship..... but you're invited to provide such an example if you can find one.

 

[JoshebB]

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17;For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18;Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Those that believe do so by grace, not by sinful volition. If and when you can provide me with a verse that explicitly assigns salvific causality to the sinner's volition, I will reconsider.

 

[JoshebB]

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

Bad exegesis. That verse was written to believers about believers. There is absolutely NOTHING in that entire chapter to even remotely suggest the author is writing about non-believing God deniers. The verse explicitly states Jesus is interceding for the group drawing near. Jesus does not intercede for those who deny him.

But, again, you are invited to provide any verse in scripture explicitly stating Jesus interceding for those who deny him. I will reconsider my position upon such evidence.

 

[JoshebB]

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Another example of bad exegesis. Most of the content of the epistolary is content written by an already regenerate and saved believer to already regenerate and saved believers about already regenerate and saved believers. In order to use the epistolary to prove any synergism only the parts specifically about non-believers can be used. 2 Peter wis writing about the God not wanting any of the Christians to perish in the pending destruction of Israel. Verse 9 is eschatological, not soteriological. He has specified the "day of the Lord," the promises God has made to His covenant people, specifically stating they should regard the patience of Christ as salvation - the salvation of the already saved.

That letter was not written to the not-church.

 

[JoshebB]

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”

.....and, therefore, are not saved. There's nothing in that verse, or the larger passage, remotely suggesting they could do anything other than what they do. Sinners sin. Believers believe.

 

[civic]

I’m at work I’ll address these tonight

 

[JoshebB]

Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Again, absolutely no mention whatsoever of anything relevant to salvifically volitional agency. Even worse, on this particular occasion Paul is quoting from Isaiah 65.

Isaiah 65:1-5
"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name. I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts, A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks; Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots. Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day."


God permitted Himself to be found and they still rebelled. They provoke God (see Rom. 8:7). They do NOT come to God for salvation. As a consequence, the rest of Isaiah 65 is about God's plan to destroy them...... except for those He chooses to inherit the new heavens and earth.

The op's use of Romans 10:21 is more bad exegesis.

 

[JoshebB]

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Who got saved in either example????


Matthew 21:18 all the way through to Matthew 26:5 is a record of just one single, solitary day in Jesus' ministry. Those five5+ chapters about entirely about the day after Jesus first entered Jerusalem before his crucifixion. Five chapters devoted to one day! That entire day is about Jesus preaching judgment and destruction, not salvation. Go back and re-read these chapters all at once. When you've read those five plus chapters with continuity go back and re-read them again proactively, intentionally looking for any and all mentions of the words, "save(d)" or "salvation." When you do that make not of the fact the only time in those five plus chapters Jesus ever mentions the subject of salvation is in Matthew 24 when he states,

Matthew 24:9-23
"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him."

Jesus is speaking to the disciples about being saved from the pending destruction, NOT salvation from sin. There is not a single sentence in the entire 5+ chapters specifically about salvation from sin.



This op proves nothing about total inability. What this op does do is demonstrate four of the most frequently occurring mistakes on the side of synergism. It 1) prooftexts verse, removing them from both their text and contexts, 2) fails to correctly identify the audience affiliations of the text, and 3) fails to correctly discriminate salvation from sin from temporal salvation, and 4) eisegetically assigns volitionalism where none is stated.

Correct those four mistakes and everything you think you understand about salvation will change.

 

[JoshebB]

If God is all powerful and its His will that none perish then there is an inability to save everyone.

Baloney.

God has many desires. He desires none of the saved perish and He desires all of those rejecting Him be destroyed. You've assumed 2 Peter 3:9 applies to everyone when that is not the case. You've assumed the perishing is about perishing occurs relative to salvation from sin when that too is not the case.

And another thing why pray for Gods will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Don't change the subject.

We know Gods will is being done in heaven but not on this earth.

Don't change the subject.

We see this in the daily lives of "believers" all of the time regarding sin and disobedience.

Don't change the subject.


YOU just tried to leverage 2 Peter 3:9 to say things it does not state and cannot be construed to say. The attempt is made with very, very, very, very, very, very poor exegesis. That will never prove anything about total depravity. Fallacy never proves anything.


Are you Arminian, Wesleyan, Traditionalist, or Provisionist? Something else? Do you know the difference?

 

[Presby02]

The doctrine of total inability doctrine has it all wrong. Its God who is unable to save everyone. So much for the reformed doctrine of Sovereignty. The reality is God does not control mans faith, choice to reveive/believe the gospel or reject it. That on man as we read below.

God saves those who come near to Him.

God cannot save everyone as God is not able to save everyone. God saves those who come to Him by faith.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17;For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18;Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”

Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

So our omnipotent God is not so omnipotent.

Could He have created a world where everyone is saved?

 

[civic]

Again, absolutely no mention whatsoever of anything relevant to salvifically volitional agency. Even worse, on this particular occasion Paul is quoting from Isaiah 65.

Isaiah 65:1-5
"I permitted Myself to be sought by those who did not ask for Me; I permitted Myself to be found by those who did not seek Me. I said, 'Here am I, here am I,' To a nation which did not call on My name. I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good, following their own thoughts, A people who continually provoke Me to My face, Offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on bricks; Who sit among graves and spend the night in secret places; Who eat swine's flesh, And the broth of unclean meat is in their pots. Who say, 'Keep to yourself, do not come near me, For I am holier than you!' These are smoke in My nostrils, A fire that burns all the day."


God permitted Himself to be found and they still rebelled. They provoke God (see Rom. 8:7). They do NOT come to God for salvation. As a consequence, the rest of Isaiah 65 is about God's plan to destroy them...... except for those He chooses to inherit the new heavens and earth.

The op's use of Romans 10:21 is more bad exegesis.

Israel was Gods elect/chosen people. Are you going to deny that ?

Jesus tells us they were unwilling.


Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

Acts 7:51
You stiff-necked people with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit, just as your fathers did.

Isaiah 30:9
These are rebellious people, deceitful children, children unwilling to obey the LORD’s instruction.

Jeremiah 7:25-26
From the day your fathers came out of the land of Egypt until this day, I have sent you all My servants the prophets again and again. / Yet they would not listen to Me or incline their ear, but they stiffened their necks and did more evil than their fathers.

Hosea 11:2
But the more I called Israel, the farther they departed from Me. They sacrificed to the Baals and burned incense to carved images.

Isaiah 1:2-4
Listen, O heavens, and give ear, O earth, for the LORD has spoken: “I have raised children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against Me. / The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master’s manger, but Israel does not know; My people do not understand.” / Alas, O sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a brood of evildoers, children who act corruptly! They have forsaken the LORD; they have despised the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on Him.

Ezekiel 2:3-5
“Son of man,” He said to me, “I am sending you to the Israelites, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me. To this very day they and their fathers have rebelled against Me. / They are obstinate and stubborn children. I am sending you to them, and you are to say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says.’ / And whether they listen or refuse to listen—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them.

2 Chronicles 36:15-16
Again and again the LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to His people through His messengers because He had compassion on them and on His dwelling place. / But they mocked the messengers of God, despising His words and scoffing at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD against His people was stirred up beyond remedy.

Jeremiah 25:4-7
And the LORD has sent all His servants the prophets to you again and again, but you have not listened or inclined your ear to hear. / The prophets told you, ‘Turn now, each of you, from your evil ways and deeds, and you can dwell in the land that the LORD has given to you and your fathers forever and ever. / Do not follow other gods to serve and worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the works of your hands. Then I will do you no harm.’ ...

Nehemiah 9:26
But they were disobedient and rebelled against You; they flung Your law behind their backs. They killed Your prophets, who had admonished them to return to You. They committed terrible blasphemies.

Do you see a common theme with Gods elect/chosen people Israel ?

 

[civic]

.....and, therefore, are not saved. There's nothing in that verse, or the larger passage, remotely suggesting they could do anything other than what they do. Sinners sin. Believers believe.

I'm glad you admit being chosen/elect of God does not mean anyone is saved.

Do you still sin ?

 

[civic]

So our omnipotent God is not so omnipotent.

Could He have created a world where everyone is saved?

If God desires all to be saved then God is unable to save everyone. His power is limited. The reformed view of Sovereignty is incorrect.

 

[civic]

Another example of bad exegesis. Most of the content of the epistolary is content written by an already regenerate and saved believer to already regenerate and saved believers about already regenerate and saved believers. In order to use the epistolary to prove any synergism only the parts specifically about non-believers can be used. 2 Peter wis writing about the God not wanting any of the Christians to perish in the pending destruction of Israel. Verse 9 is eschatological, not soteriological. He has specified the "day of the Lord," the promises God has made to His covenant people, specifically stating they should regard the patience of Christ as salvation - the salvation of the already saved.

That letter was not written to the not-church.

Israel was Gods covenant people- chosen and elect. So much for His covenant people.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is just dumb.

God is almighty and the doctrine of total depravity (or inability) does not, in any way, contradict God's omni-attributes. From the avenue taken in this op, the way to understand Total Depravity is that God and God alone is the only one who can save a sinner from his/her sin...... and He uses nothing sinful to do so.

I'd like an explanation......

If God desires everyone to be saved.....
WHY aren't they?
Is God unable to save everyone even though He wants to?



1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9
9'The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
Titus 2:11


11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,


John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

 

[Dizerner]

The doctrine of total inability doctrine has it all wrong.

Without me you can do nothing. — Jesus

This is literally all that total inability teaches, and it is mystifying that people will literally fight the grace of God.

 

[Kampioen]

So our omnipotent God is not so omnipotent.

Could He have created a world where everyone is saved?

Yes. As long as God is not unconditionally saving sinners as part of it. He can't let sin get by, by nature. But He can't unconditionally predetermine people to sin, due to His nature. Like God cannot lie, due to His nature. It is not a matter of inability but of nature. But it is not against His nature to allow people to libertarianly sin.