The New birth comes after hearing/believing the gospel

[Red Baker]

@Joe

All means all. It does not mean some.

Greeting Joe,

Please consider:

John 12:32​

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Joe, we allow the scriptures to drive its interpretation for us by comparing scriptures with scriptures. All in this scriptures means all without distinction, not all without exception for we know that God has from the beginning made exceptions. In the OT, God was the God of the Jews ONLY, for the most part, not the God of the Egyptians, or any of the seven nations that Israel drove out when they took the promise land.

Now since Christ's death, he is not only the God of the elect Jews, but also has an election of grace among the Gentiles nations.

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Again, in the OT, God was the God of the Jews only, and even among them only the children of His promises.

Romans 9:8​

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Galatians 4:28​

“Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.”

Brother Joe, the ones that Jesus is drawing unto him are the children of God's promises to him, and "no" others, yet everyone of them!

 

[civic]

That makes absolutely no sense. Everyone is lost until they are saved.

never heard that one before, thats a new one lol.

 

[civic]

Brother, do you know what reading into the text means? If you did, you would not be denying that you are doing it. What makes you any different from the Catholic who reads purgatory into the text? Both you and the Catholic are interpreting text by injecting your own ideas and biases into it, rather than allowing the text to speak for itself.

There is zero implication by our Lord that He meant some when He said all, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

His statement was not about election, as you read into it, but inclusiveness that Jews and Gentiles will come to Him.

He is telling the Jewish people that He is going to die on a cross. They understood from the Law that the Messiah was to reign forever, so they asked Him how could He say He was going to die. (ref, JN 12:34)

We know from the scriptures that the Gentiles are included in God's salvation of man. Such as promised in Isaiah 11:10, "And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious."

All means all. It does not mean some.

God Bless

spot on brother

 

[Joe]

It rarely means all without exception . Honest Bible study proves that

I don't disagree.

Perhaps you missed who the "all" means. I will state it again, "His statement was not about election, as you read into it, but inclusiveness that Jews and Gentiles will come to Him."

He will not only draw the Jewish people but Gentiles too. The collective of all drawn will be Jews and Gentiles.

Now, the "all" without exception is Hebrews 2:9, "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." There is zero doubt that the context is each man, every man, everyone....this of course disproves Calvinism, as according to Calvinism, the Lord only died for His elect. When I was a hyper-Calvinist, I tried to make the passage work within the framework of the doctrine, but there was no "true" way that I could. The average Calvinist doesn't like to bring it up because it is a stumbling stone when taken at face value.

The passage that coincides with John 12:32 is John 3:14-15, and it has an exception of "believes in Him".

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever-all those who believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." (Joh 3:14-15)

Our Lord Jesus Christ is saying in John 12:32, the collective of all drawn will be Jews and Gentiles. And in John 3:14-15, we now know that of the collective drawn of Jews and Gentiles, those who believe in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Historically, we know that Jews and Gentiles have been preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, whereby they are induced to come to believe in Jesus Christ. And of those induced, only those who believe in Him has eternal life.,

Brother, there is no mentioning or implication of "elect" in the text.

God Bless

 

[brightfame52]

I don't disagree

Okay then, that is my point.