God's attribute of Justice demands PSA

[DavidTree]

• Having said all this, perhaps the Holy Spirit did want us to look back at the Old Testament and perceive the differences between "yachid and echad". Add to this plural pronouns like: "let US make man in OUR image" and Trinitarians have irrefutable evidence of the trinity in the Old Testament.

1. Trinitarians can be confident that the word "echad" used to describe God's oneness, is exactly what we would expect to find. Jews, anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians are nervous about the fact that the most direct and important statements in the Old Testament about God's oneness (Deut 6:4) use the unified one [echad] instead of a words that always mean numeric oneness like "yachid" and "bad".
2. There isn't a single Jew or anti-Trinitarian today who, given the chance, would not go back in time and tell Moses his choice of ECHAD instead of YACHID in Deut 6:4 will cause them grief in the future.
3. As we will see, Jews did change words and start using the word YACHID in reference to God after they rejected conversion to Christianity.

• Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and chose the "unified oneness" word "hen" which is the same word used by Jesus in Mt 19:5, "the two shall become one (hen) flesh.

1. It is significant that Jesus did not use "mono" in Mk 12:29. The word "hen" directly corresponds to "echad" which was used in Deut 6:4.
2. Both texts used "unified oneness" words rather than absolute numeric oneness to the exclusion of all others.
3. This is a very devastating pattern of using the unified one as opposed to the singular one in both the Old and New Testaments in Deut 6:4.

 

[Johann]

Did you know that 'echad' is used in the Shema

Deu 6:4 Shema Yisroel Adonoi Eloheinu Adonoi Echad.

שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

LXX Related Word(s)
G243 allos
G530 hapax
G1538 hekastos
G2087 heteros
G2470 isos
G2839 koinos
G3641 oligos
G4387 protos
G3561 meomenia

BDB Definition:
1) one (number)
1a) one (number)
1b) each, every
1c) a certain
1d) an (indefinite article)
1e) only, once, once for all
1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
1g) first
1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a numeral from H258


61.0 אֶחַד (’eµad) one, same, single, first, each, once, fem. ’aµat ( אַחַת ).

This word occurs 960 times as a noun, adjective, or adverb, as a cardinal or ordinal number, often used in a distributive sense. It is closely identified with yäµad "to be united" and with rö’sh "first, head," especially in connection with the "first day" of the month (Gen_8:13). It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness.

’eµad can refer to a certain individual (Jdg_13:2) or a single blessing (Gen_27:38). Solomon alone was chosen by the Lord (1Ch_29:1). The notion of uniqueness is also found in 2Sa_7:23 and Eze_33:24 (for this verse with reference to God, see below). The phrase "in a single day" can refer to the suddenness of judgment (Isa_10:17; Isa_47:9) or blessing (Isa_66:8).

Adverbially, ’eµad means "once" or "one time" (2Ki_6:10). God solemnly swore to David "one time" that his descendants and throne would last forever (Psa_89:35 [H36]). In Hag_2:6 the Lord warned that he would shake heaven and earth "once more in a little while." Yet this prediction of the overthrow of nations probably included a near as well as a far fulfilment (cf. Heb_12:26). The expression "in one day" denotes the swiftness of the Lord's acts (Isa_9:14 [H13]; Zec_3:9).

Sometimes the phrase "as one man" can mean "all at once" (Num_14:15), but when Gideon was told he would defeat Midian "as one man" it probably meant "as easily as a single man" (Jdg_6:16). The phrase can also refer to a nation aroused to take united action against gross injustice (Jdg_20:8; 1Sa_11:7). Zephaniah's mention of people serving God "with one shoulder" (Zep_3:9) likely means "shoulder to shoulder," solidly united. Likewise in Exo_24:3 "with one voice" expresses that all Israel was involved in entering into the Covenant with Yahweh.

The concept of unity is related to the tabernacle, whose curtains are fastened together to form one unit (Exo_26:6; Exo_26:11; Exo_36:13). Adam and Eve are described as "one flesh" (Gen_2:24), which includes more than sexual unity. In Gen_34:16 the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become "one people."

Later, Ezekiel predicted that the fragmented nation of Israel would someday be reunited, as he symbolically joined two sticks (Eze_37:17). Once again Judah and Ephraim would be one nation with one king (Eze_37:22). Abraham was viewed as "the one" from whom all the people descended (Isa_51:2; Mal_2:15), the one father of the nation.

Diversity within unity is also seen from the fact that ’eµad has a plural form, ’¦µädîm. It is translated "a few days" in Gen_27:44; Gen_29:20, and Dan_11:20. In Gen_11:1 the plural modifies "words": "the whole earth used the same language and the same words." Apparently it refers to the same vocabulary, the same set of words spoken by everyone at the tower of Babel. The first "same" in Gen_11:1 is singular, analogous to "the same law" of the Passover applying to native-born and foreigner (Exo_12:49; cf, Num_15:16), or to the "one law" of sure death for approaching the Persian king without invitation (Est_4:11).

In the famous Shema of Deu_6:4, "Hear, O Israel... the LORD is one," the question of diversity within unity has theological implications. Some scholars have felt that, though "one" is singular, the usage of the word allows for the doctrine of the Trinity. While it is true that this doctrine is foreshadowed in the OT, the verse concentrates on the fact that there is one God and that Israel owes its exclusive loyalty to him (Deu_5:9; Deu_6:5). The NT also is strictly monotheistic while at the same time teaching diversity within the unity (Jas_2:19; 1Co_8:5-6).

[The lexical and syntactical difficulties of Deu_6:4 can be seen in the many translations offered for it in the NIV. The option "the LORD is our God, the LORD alone" has in its favor both the broad context of the book and the immediate context. Deu_6:4 serves as an introduction to motivate Israel to keep the command "to love (the Lord)" (v. 5). The notion that the Lord is Israel's only God suits this command admirably (cf. Son_6:8 ff). Moreover, these two notions, the Lord's unique relation to Israel and Israel's obligation to love him, are central to the concern of Moses' addresses in the book (cf. Deu_5:9 f.; Deu_7:9; Deu_10:14 ff., Deu_10:20 f., Deu_13:6; Deu_30:20; Deu_32:12). Finally Zechariah employs the text with this meaning and applies it universally with reference to the eschaton: "The Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be (the only) one, and His name (the only) one" (Zec_14:9 NASB).

In Job_31:15 and Mal_2:10 the word is used to denote that one and the same God created all men. The reference to the one Shepherd in Ecc_12:11 probably indicates that God is the only source of wisdom, B.K.W.)

Bibliography: Knight, A. F., "The Lord is One," Exp T 79: 8-10. TDOT, I, pp. 193-200. THAT, I, pp. 104-106. H.W.




Hear. In the Hebrew text this word (sham'a) has the last letter majuscular (i.e. larger than the others) as also the last letter of the last word ('echad), to emphasize "the first and great commandment" (Mat_22:38. Mar_12:29, Mar_12:30). These two letters taken together make 'ed = "a witness", because God is a witness and looketh on the heart (1Sa_16:7). In Hebrew. shem'a yisrael yeh6va elheynu yehova. echad = "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah (the Self and ever existing One), our Elohim is one Jehovah".

one. Hebrew 'ehad = a compound unity (Latin. unus), one made up of others: Gen_1:5, one of seven; Deu_2:11, one of four; Deu_2:21, one of twenty-four; Deu_2:24, one made up of two; Deu_3:22, one of the Trinity: Deu_49:16, one of twelve; Num_13:23, one of a cluster. So Psa_34:20, &c. It is not yahid, which is (Latin) unicus, unique a single, or only one, occurs twelve times: Gen_22:2, Gen_22:12, Gen_22:16. Jdg_11:34. Psa_22:20; Psa_25:16; Psa_35:17; Psa_68:6. Pro_4:3. Jer_6:26. Amo_8:10. Zec_12:10. Hebrew of all other words for "one" is 'echad.

(4-9) One of the four Phylacteries. Exo_13:1-10; Exo_13:11-16. Exo_6:4-9; Exo_11:13-21. See note on Exo_13:1, Compare the Structures of the second pair (above).

Deu 6:4 Hear,H8085 H8798 V-Qal-Imp-ms šə·maʿ שְׁמַ֖ע Israel!H3478 N-proper-ms yiś·rā·’êl יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֥ה our GodH430 N-mpc+1cp ’ĕ·lō·hê·nū אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ YHWH;H3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֥ה׀ [is] one.H259 Number-ms ʾɛ·ḥå̄ḏ אֶחָֽד׃ N1

J.

 

[DavidTree]

Deu 6:4 Shema Yisroel Adonoi Eloheinu Adonoi Echad.

שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

echâd
ekh-awd'
A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

LXX Related Word(s)
G243 allos
G530 hapax
G1538 hekastos
G2087 heteros
G2470 isos
G2839 koinos
G3641 oligos
G4387 protos
G3561 meomenia

BDB Definition:
1) one (number)
1a) one (number)
1b) each, every
1c) a certain
1d) an (indefinite article)
1e) only, once, once for all
1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
1g) first
1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a numeral from H258


61.0 אֶחַד (’eµad) one, same, single, first, each, once, fem. ’aµat ( אַחַת ).

This word occurs 960 times as a noun, adjective, or adverb, as a cardinal or ordinal number, often used in a distributive sense. It is closely identified with yäµad "to be united" and with rö’sh "first, head," especially in connection with the "first day" of the month (Gen_8:13). It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness.

’eµad can refer to a certain individual (Jdg_13:2) or a single blessing (Gen_27:38). Solomon alone was chosen by the Lord (1Ch_29:1). The notion of uniqueness is also found in 2Sa_7:23 and Eze_33:24 (for this verse with reference to God, see below). The phrase "in a single day" can refer to the suddenness of judgment (Isa_10:17; Isa_47:9) or blessing (Isa_66:8).

Adverbially, ’eµad means "once" or "one time" (2Ki_6:10). God solemnly swore to David "one time" that his descendants and throne would last forever (Psa_89:35 [H36]). In Hag_2:6 the Lord warned that he would shake heaven and earth "once more in a little while." Yet this prediction of the overthrow of nations probably included a near as well as a far fulfilment (cf. Heb_12:26). The expression "in one day" denotes the swiftness of the Lord's acts (Isa_9:14 [H13]; Zec_3:9).

Sometimes the phrase "as one man" can mean "all at once" (Num_14:15), but when Gideon was told he would defeat Midian "as one man" it probably meant "as easily as a single man" (Jdg_6:16). The phrase can also refer to a nation aroused to take united action against gross injustice (Jdg_20:8; 1Sa_11:7). Zephaniah's mention of people serving God "with one shoulder" (Zep_3:9) likely means "shoulder to shoulder," solidly united. Likewise in Exo_24:3 "with one voice" expresses that all Israel was involved in entering into the Covenant with Yahweh.

The concept of unity is related to the tabernacle, whose curtains are fastened together to form one unit (Exo_26:6; Exo_26:11; Exo_36:13). Adam and Eve are described as "one flesh" (Gen_2:24), which includes more than sexual unity. In Gen_34:16 the men of Shechem suggest intermarriage with Jacob's children in order to become "one people."

Later, Ezekiel predicted that the fragmented nation of Israel would someday be reunited, as he symbolically joined two sticks (Eze_37:17). Once again Judah and Ephraim would be one nation with one king (Eze_37:22). Abraham was viewed as "the one" from whom all the people descended (Isa_51:2; Mal_2:15), the one father of the nation.

Diversity within unity is also seen from the fact that ’eµad has a plural form, ’¦µädîm. It is translated "a few days" in Gen_27:44; Gen_29:20, and Dan_11:20. In Gen_11:1 the plural modifies "words": "the whole earth used the same language and the same words." Apparently it refers to the same vocabulary, the same set of words spoken by everyone at the tower of Babel. The first "same" in Gen_11:1 is singular, analogous to "the same law" of the Passover applying to native-born and foreigner (Exo_12:49; cf, Num_15:16), or to the "one law" of sure death for approaching the Persian king without invitation (Est_4:11).

In the famous Shema of Deu_6:4, "Hear, O Israel... the LORD is one," the question of diversity within unity has theological implications. Some scholars have felt that, though "one" is singular, the usage of the word allows for the doctrine of the Trinity. While it is true that this doctrine is foreshadowed in the OT, the verse concentrates on the fact that there is one God and that Israel owes its exclusive loyalty to him (Deu_5:9; Deu_6:5). The NT also is strictly monotheistic while at the same time teaching diversity within the unity (Jas_2:19; 1Co_8:5-6).

[The lexical and syntactical difficulties of Deu_6:4 can be seen in the many translations offered for it in the NIV. The option "the LORD is our God, the LORD alone" has in its favor both the broad context of the book and the immediate context. Deu_6:4 serves as an introduction to motivate Israel to keep the command "to love (the Lord)" (v. 5). The notion that the Lord is Israel's only God suits this command admirably (cf. Son_6:8 ff). Moreover, these two notions, the Lord's unique relation to Israel and Israel's obligation to love him, are central to the concern of Moses' addresses in the book (cf. Deu_5:9 f.; Deu_7:9; Deu_10:14 ff., Deu_10:20 f., Deu_13:6; Deu_30:20; Deu_32:12). Finally Zechariah employs the text with this meaning and applies it universally with reference to the eschaton: "The Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be (the only) one, and His name (the only) one" (Zec_14:9 NASB).

In Job_31:15 and Mal_2:10 the word is used to denote that one and the same God created all men. The reference to the one Shepherd in Ecc_12:11 probably indicates that God is the only source of wisdom, B.K.W.)

Bibliography: Knight, A. F., "The Lord is One," Exp T 79: 8-10. TDOT, I, pp. 193-200. THAT, I, pp. 104-106. H.W.




Hear. In the Hebrew text this word (sham'a) has the last letter majuscular (i.e. larger than the others) as also the last letter of the last word ('echad), to emphasize "the first and great commandment" (Mat_22:38. Mar_12:29, Mar_12:30). These two letters taken together make 'ed = "a witness", because God is a witness and looketh on the heart (1Sa_16:7). In Hebrew. shem'a yisrael yeh6va elheynu yehova. echad = "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah (the Self and ever existing One), our Elohim is one Jehovah".

one. Hebrew 'ehad = a compound unity (Latin. unus), one made up of others: Gen_1:5, one of seven; Deu_2:11, one of four; Deu_2:21, one of twenty-four; Deu_2:24, one made up of two; Deu_3:22, one of the Trinity: Deu_49:16, one of twelve; Num_13:23, one of a cluster. So Psa_34:20, &c. It is not yahid, which is (Latin) unicus, unique a single, or only one, occurs twelve times: Gen_22:2, Gen_22:12, Gen_22:16. Jdg_11:34. Psa_22:20; Psa_25:16; Psa_35:17; Psa_68:6. Pro_4:3. Jer_6:26. Amo_8:10. Zec_12:10. Hebrew of all other words for "one" is 'echad.

(4-9) One of the four Phylacteries. Exo_13:1-10; Exo_13:11-16. Exo_6:4-9; Exo_11:13-21. See note on Exo_13:1, Compare the Structures of the second pair (above).

Deu 6:4 Hear,H8085 H8798 V-Qal-Imp-ms šə·maʿ שְׁמַ֖ע Israel!H3478 N-proper-ms yiś·rā·’êl יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל YHWHH3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֥ה our GodH430 N-mpc+1cp ’ĕ·lō·hê·nū אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ YHWH;H3068 N-proper-ms Yah·weh יְהוָ֥ה׀ [is] one.H259 Number-ms ʾɛ·ḥå̄ḏ אֶחָֽד׃ N1

J.

"Sometimes the phrase "as one man" can mean "all at once" (Num_14:15), but when Gideon was told he would defeat Midian "as one man" it probably meant "as easily as a single man" (Jdg_6:16). The phrase can also refer to a nation aroused to take united action against gross injustice (Jdg_20:8; 1Sa_11:7). Zephaniah's mention of people serving God "with one shoulder" (Zep_3:9) likely means "shoulder to shoulder," solidly united. Likewise in Exo_24:3 "with one voice" expresses that all Israel was involved in entering into the Covenant with Yahweh."

i love this

AND love this one as well -

Hear. In the Hebrew text this word (sham'a) has the last letter majuscular (i.e. larger than the others) as also the last letter of the last word ('echad), to emphasize "the first and great commandment" (Mat_22:38. Mar_12:29, Mar_12:30). These two letters taken together make 'ed = "a witness", because God is a witness and looketh on the heart (1Sa_16:7). In Hebrew. shem'a yisrael yeh6va elheynu yehova. echad = "Hear, O Israel, Jehovah (the Self and ever existing One), our Elohim is one Jehovah".

Thank You Brother

 

[praise_yeshua]

• Having said all this, perhaps the Holy Spirit did want us to look back at the Old Testament and perceive the differences between "yachid and echad". Add to this plural pronouns like: "let US make man in OUR image" and Trinitarians have irrefutable evidence of the trinity in the Old Testament.

1. Trinitarians can be confident that the word "echad" used to describe God's oneness, is exactly what we would expect to find. Jews, anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians are nervous about the fact that the most direct and important statements in the Old Testament about God's oneness (Deut 6:4) use the unified one [echad] instead of a words that always mean numeric oneness like "yachid" and "bad".
2. There isn't a single Jew or anti-Trinitarian today who, given the chance, would not go back in time and tell Moses his choice of ECHAD instead of YACHID in Deut 6:4 will cause them grief in the future.
3. As we will see, Jews did change words and start using the word YACHID in reference to God after they rejected conversion to Christianity.

• Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and chose the "unified oneness" word "hen" which is the same word used by Jesus in Mt 19:5, "the two shall become one (hen) flesh.

1. It is significant that Jesus did not use "mono" in Mk 12:29. The word "hen" directly corresponds to "echad" which was used in Deut 6:4.
2. Both texts used "unified oneness" words rather than absolute numeric oneness to the exclusion of all others.
3. This is a very devastating pattern of using the unified one as opposed to the singular one in both the Old and New Testaments in Deut 6:4.

Got to love the "oneness" associated with "hen" and "echad".

Does that create a equally valuable rendering in Greek as Hebrew????

 

[DavidTree]

Got to love the "oneness" associated with "hen" and "echad".

Does that create a equally valuable rendering in Greek as Hebrew????

i have heard that 'hen' is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew 'echad'.

But i have not verified that.

However, we KNOW that MESSIAH spoke Hebrew to His Jewish brethren AND most especially when He spoke to the Pharisees and Saducees.

Therefore, it is not as much of as being necessary to the Greek since it is the Hebrew language that MESSIAH spoke.

Now this leaves us a fascinating detail of OT Prophecy, of which i hold back on in sharing at this point.

Peace from our Adonai YAHshuah HaMoshiach to you my Brother AND to the Family/People of ELOHIM = Jew & Gentile in MESSIAH

 

[praise_yeshua]

i have heard that 'hen' is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew 'echad'.

But i have not verified that.

However, we KNOW that MESSIAH spoke Hebrew to His Jewish brethren AND most especially when He spoke to the Pharisees and Saducees.

Therefore, it is not as much of as being necessary to the Greek since it is the Hebrew language that MESSIAH spoke.

Now this leaves us a fascinating detail of OT Prophecy, of which i hold back on in sharing at this point.

Peace from our Adonai YAHshuah HaMoshiach to you my Brother AND to the Family/People of ELOHIM = Jew & Gentile in MESSIAH

I'd say that Jesus spoke limitless languages and a heavenly language. Which settles the fact that Hebrew isn't a derivative to the "heavenly language". Just making the point. Not trying to be disagreeable.

I love the subject.

The disciples probably spoke Aramaic. The disciples probably learned Greek because of their circumstances and from the Greek OT that was in wide use during the time of Christ. Hebrew was a largely reserved to the educated religious rulers and hierarchy among the Pharisees and lawyers. Remember when they took notice that the disciples were ignorant and unlearned men. Yet, they must have been with Jesus.

Thanks

 

[DavidTree]

I'd say that Jesus spoke limitless languages and a heavenly language. Which settles the fact that Hebrew isn't a derivative to the "heavenly language". Just making the point. Not trying to be disagreeable.

I love the subject.

The disciples probably spoke Aramaic. The disciples probably learned Greek because of their circumstances and from the Greek OT that was in wide use during the time of Christ. Hebrew was a largely reserved to the educated religious rulers and hierarchy among the Pharisees and lawyers. Remember when they took notice that the disciples were ignorant and unlearned men. Yet, they must have been with Jesus.

Thanks

i'd say you are 100% correct on this

 

[DavidTree]

I'd say that Jesus spoke limitless languages and a heavenly language. Which settles the fact that Hebrew isn't a derivative to the "heavenly language". Just making the point. Not trying to be disagreeable.

I love the subject.

The disciples probably spoke Aramaic. The disciples probably learned Greek because of their circumstances and from the Greek OT that was in wide use during the time of Christ. Hebrew was a largely reserved to the educated religious rulers and hierarchy among the Pharisees and lawyers. Remember when they took notice that the disciples were ignorant and unlearned men. Yet, they must have been with Jesus.

Thanks

Hebrew was a largely reserved to the educated religious rulers and hierarchy among the Pharisees and lawyers.

This was the main point of my post.



100% the LORD spoke whatever language HE chose at any given moment.

The KEY to the LORD's communication to the Jewish Leaders/Elders, MOST especially when they questioned Him concerning OT law,
would of been in Hebrew since the Scriptures original language was Hebrew (not all of it but definitely the 5 Books of Moses).

Example: Mark 12:28-31
Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him,
“Which is the first commandment of all?”

Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

The LORD absolutely spoke the 'Shema' in Hebrew to the Jewish scribes/pharisees/etc.

The 'shema' contains the plural 'Elohim' and the corresponding 'echad' as this is the GOD of Genesis, Exodus and forward.
The ancient rabbis/elders who were of faith to the Word knew that Elohim was a plurality.
As a result of this knowledge they were killed off by their own brethren.

Luke 11:49
And He said, “Woe to you also, lawyers! For you load men with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets, and your fathers killed them.
In fact, you bear witness that you approve the deeds of your fathers; for they indeed killed them, and you build their tombs. Therefore the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they will kill and persecute,’ that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who perished between the altar and the temple. Yes, I say to you, it shall be required of this generation.

The moral(truth) of the story is that ignorance/unbelief of the Holy Scriptures cries "God is one(yachid)"
Whereas the TRUE Narrative says = Elohim said: Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness

 

[101G]

so who gave your one person God all power

U are still in the dark. aren't U? (smile), lol, Oh My! go and find out what H259 ECHAD means. well no matter, LISTEN CLOSLEY, the Ordinal FIRST, (WHOM U IGNORANTLY CALLS THE FATHER/LORD gave the Ordinal LAST, WHOM U IGNORANTLY CALLS THE SON/Lord, ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH. yes the SAME one person in the ECHAD of his own self. ..... (smile), lol. man this is too easy. now listen to the definition of "ONE".
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

see that second definition? God is a plurality of his own self, (per Isaiah 63:5). as the ordinal First, Old Testament and the ordinal Last New Testament. same person only diversified and Equally Shared in Flesh, in TIME, ORDER, PLACE and RANK. Oh so simple.

Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

so U still haven't found the scripture that says the voice at the Lord Jesus baptism from heaven is the Father's voice..... well keep on looking.
now,

How did one person have glory with himself

You do not answer

Echad is Hebrew for a compound unity

It better fits the trinity doctrine than yours

LOL, ANOTHER ERROR. if God was a compound unity before he created ALL THINGS, or after he created ALL THINGS. then Isaiah 44:24 is a lie (God forbid), in contrast with John 1:3. let's see it

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

God was "ALONE, and "BY HIMSELF" when he MADE ALL THINGS. when you and the trinity doctrine say God, went through or by Jesus the Son to made all things. well that want fly, for Isaiah said he was "ALONE", and alone means, having no one else present. well if no was present how could he go through the Son.... but do not the bible say in John 1:3 that the Person there made all things? yes, then the Person in John 1:3 is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24, or else U have two separate and distinct creators, meaning U have two Gods which is nothing but polytheism.

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Father and son together in eternity oops simultaneously

your opinion? LOL, LOL, LOL, let's see what the bible say. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the LORD is ONE PERSON, who is the First, and he is "WITH" the Last correct. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." same LORD, who is also the Last. as U said, "yes, Father and son together in eternity oops simultaneously"
oops is correct as the same one person....... for Isaiah quoted the LORD, " I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

same one person in a ECHAD as Ordinal First and Ordinal Last ..... in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK...... this is just 2 easy.

101G

 

[101G]

This is what is expressed in Malachi 3:6, "I am HaShem, I do not change." Creation makes no change by HaShem.
It is the same before creation as it is after creation. The perception of change and variation is only from the perspective of the creations.

not saying that you're right or wrong. but consider this. if God was a compound unity, who did he unify himself with before creation?

101G.

 

[DavidTree]

not saying that you're right or wrong. but consider this. if God was a compound unity, who did he unify himself with before creation?

101G.

Brother, if anyone could figure out the Eternal Elohim, there would be no 'God'.

All we are called to do from our Heavenly FATHER is to trust His every word = Matthew 4:4

When we do this, the FATHER brings us to His SON whereby His Sinless Atoning Blood washes us Clean and the Holy Spirit brings about the New Birth spoken of in John 3:1-8

AND it even gets BETTER then that!!! = John 16:5-15

“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [c]will take of Mine and declare it to you.

 

[TomL]

U are still in the dark. aren't U? (smile), lol, Oh My! go and find out what H259 ECHAD means. well no matter, LISTEN CLOSLEY, the Ordinal FIRST, (WHOM U IGNORANTLY CALLS THE FATHER/LORD gave the Ordinal LAST, WHOM U IGNORANTLY CALLS THE SON/Lord, ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH. yes the SAME one person in the ECHAD of his own self. ..... (smile), lol. man this is too easy. now listen to the definition of "ONE".
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258

see that second definition? God is a plurality of his own self, (per Isaiah 63:5). as the ordinal First, Old Testament and the ordinal Last New Testament. same person only diversified and Equally Shared in Flesh, in TIME, ORDER, PLACE and RANK. Oh so simple.

so U still haven't found the scripture that says the voice at the Lord Jesus baptism from heaven is the Father's voice..... well keep on looking.
now,

LOL, ANOTHER ERROR. if God was a compound unity before he created ALL THINGS, or after he created ALL THINGS. then Isaiah 44:24 is a lie (God forbid), in contrast with John 1:3. let's see it

Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"

God was "ALONE, and "BY HIMSELF" when he MADE ALL THINGS. when you and the trinity doctrine say God, went through or by Jesus the Son to made all things. well that want fly, for Isaiah said he was "ALONE", and alone means, having no one else present. well if no was present how could he go through the Son.... but do not the bible say in John 1:3 that the Person there made all things? yes, then the Person in John 1:3 is the same one person in Isaiah 44:24, or else U have two separate and distinct creators, meaning U have two Gods which is nothing but polytheism.

your opinion? LOL, LOL, LOL, let's see what the bible say. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." the LORD is ONE PERSON, who is the First, and he is "WITH" the Last correct. now this, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." same LORD, who is also the Last. as U said, "yes, Father and son together in eternity oops simultaneously"
oops is correct as the same one person....... for Isaiah quoted the LORD, " I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

same one person in a ECHAD as Ordinal First and Ordinal Last ..... in TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK...... this is just 2 easy.

101G

You still do not answer. Who or what did your one person God receive power from.

You keep ignoring it

How do you account for these

How did one person have glory with himself

You do not answer

Echad is Hebrew for a compound unity

It better fits the trinity doctrine than yours

Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. where we see three persons simultaneously Below we have two persons God and the word John 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. below have Jesus crying out to the father Matthew 27:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Was there a mode switch again Was your Jesus just a man now? John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Father and son together in eternity oops simultaneously The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand” (John 3:35). For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and greaterworks than these will He show Him, so that you will marvel” (John 5:20). Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love” (John 15:9).“I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know thatYou sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whomYou have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You havegiven Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:23–24). While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of thecloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” (Matthew17:5). John 5:17 (ESV) — 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” John 8:49 (ESV) — 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. Matthew 10:32 (ESV) — 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, Luke 22:29 (ESV) — 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, John 15:8 (ESV) — 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. John 10:29 (ESV) — 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. Father, glorify Your name.” There came then a voice out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again” (John 12:28). Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:1–3) “Father, into your hands I commit My spirit” (Luke 23:46) “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” (Matthew 11:27). l. In Romans 1:7 we read, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” The same greeting is found in 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; and Philippians 1:2. John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God..

That God alone created is not a problem for trinitarianism as we believe in one God

There is but one God

No text however says God was one person

but which mode do you believe created

Genesis 1:26 (ESV) — 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Hebrews 1:2 (ESV) — 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.


Who created and through whom did he create

John 1:3 (ESV) — 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[101G]

Brother, if anyone could figure out the Eternal Elohim, there would be no 'God'.

again, not saying that you're right or wrong, and there is no need to figure anything out. for the answer is right here in the bible, consider this. God said via his apostle Paul this. Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" so we have no excuse for not knowing that..... God wants us to KNOW HIS GODHEAD. you were on the right track with Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" that term ECHAD/ONE is not a compound unity not in God Case, if so a compound consists of two or more before any unity. so, if he became a compound ..... to be a unity, he was more than one before he, and whatever, became a unity. and the scripture never say this. but on the OTHER HAND, the bible clearly speak of God being DIVERSE. meaning he became a "Diversity", of his OWN SELF .... in FLESH and BONE with BLOOD. and this diversity is bible based. listen, the Ordinal ...... "FIRST", and Ordinal ....... "LAST". the First and the Last tells us God is a "UNITY", but not Compound. but how and what kind of unity? here it is, HE IS A EQUAL "SHARE" OF HIMSELF IN FLESH. THE KEY TO GOD UNITY IS NOT COMPOUND, BUT EQUALLY SHARED, MEANING "WITH", AS PER. PHIL. 2:6, AND HERE IN THESE SCRIPTURES BELOW
A. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." notice he said "I", "I", "I", a single person designation. and he said I am .... "WITH" the Last. now do Last indicate another person who is separate and distinct from him? no, because in Isaiah 48:12, listen, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." also indicate the same person. and this is clearly explained in "DIVERSITY" of Offspring. listen,
Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." NOTICE THE TERM "OFFSPRING". it is the Greek word,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

BINGO, there it is diversity or as the Greek also say, the G243 Allos, or Another. this is bared out in the OT prophet
of Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

the term "FELLOW" says it all. it is the Hebrew word,
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

notice definition #2. concretely, a kindred man. notice God's fellow, this man, (concretely) is God's KINDRED MAN, other words his REDEEMER. now hold that thought Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." THERE IT IS, "and his redeemer the LORD of hosts" this man, and we all know that this is speaking of the Christ, is the redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." THERE IT IS, "and his redeemer the LORD of hosts" it's right there in the scriptures we cannot miss it.

conclusion. instead of a compound unity, what about a plain old EQUAL "SHARE" of, of, of, himself in flesh. just as Isaiah 53 clearly states based on Isaiah 63:5.

understand, God is "ANOTHER"/G243 Allos of himself in Flesh. please note, when we say Son..... we're not talking biological son. no, nor Father biologically.... but we speak in term as ORDINAL FIRST, Spirit//FATHER/LORD, and Ordinal Lasts, spirit/Son/Lord IN DESIGINATATION. the terms Father and Son has nothing to do with biology ....... as in reference to gender, or sex. the terms Father/LORD, and Son/Lord is in reference to TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK, again in DESIGINATATION.

knowing this, it answers the WE, and the OUR in Genesis 1:26, and the He and the Him in verse 26 afterward. and it answer the "WHO" was at the Lord Jesus baptism. and it answer the we in John 14:23. as a matter of Fact it answers every question concerning the Godhead.

as said, maybe this you might give consideration to. be blessed my Brother.

101G.

 

[101G]

Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


where we see three persons simultaneously

if so post book chapter and verse that say the voice from heaven is the Fathers voice at the Lord's baptism. you only assume that the voice is the Father's voice.

101G.

 

[101G]

@TomL. and to my brother @DavidTree. I hope this my help you in your study.
brother TomL since you cannot find that verse that says it's the Father voice, well edification time.

“A Voice From Heaven”​

Many who have been fooled by the double tongue and has been lead down a road of destruction. many by their belief, (in three persons), and from unfound hear say, have been sold a bag of worthless, (as some say), goods, that is garbage. and here is some of the garbage sold..... "the voice from heaven is the Father's voice". who told us that "LIE?". the bible never said it was the Father's voice, it said "A Voice", and the lie came in on an ASSUMPTION. many wanting to believe so hard in the three person ERROR, until they just simply ASSUME it's the Father's voice by what was said. this is not only a spiritual ERROR, but a big one.... never add or take away from the word of God. scripture, Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." many wrongly and willing make this mistake. oh yes, it's a easy mistake to make, (for we all are human, and make mistakes) ... but here, the "ASSUMPTION" is the mistake. let's examine this verse and it's implications.

first things first. in studying the bible, ... "WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" .... he will guide US in all TRUTH. and here in this setting we need his guidance. in Hermeneutics there is a section of study called the "NEAR and FAR Application". meaning what happen before, (near), will happen again in the Future, (Far) in similar application. and here, (at the Lord Jesus baptism), is a good example of this. so let the HOLY Spirit lead us in understanding this subject matter, "A VOICE FROM HEAVEN".

so "A" voice from heaven spoke but was its God's Voice? the bible does not say, only "A VOICE". so, using the Hermeneutics application of NEAR and FAR, let's see in scripture when a Voice from heaven is speaking on God's behalf. the book of Genesis, God told Abraham to sacrifice his only Begotten Son... do we see any similarities here at the Lord Jesus baptism? .... "only Begotten Son". (FAR application, Abraham only begotten Son, and NEAR application, God's only begotten Son) so God told Abraham to sacrifice his only Begotten Son, and when Abraham was about to do it, what happen? let the bible tell us. Genesis 22:10 "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." Genesis 22:11 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I." Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." HOLD IT, STOP THE PRESS, what did the angel say .... from HEAVEN? listen, "seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me". wait a second, the angel never commanded Abraham to sacrifice his ... ONLY BEGOTTEN SON... no, God did. but it was the angel speaking from ... "heaven" on God's behalf. the verse clearly states it was the angel ... "VOICE" from heaven that spoke.

never assume anything..... KNOW. and if the bible never say it was the Father's Voice, then don't ASSUME, and ADD to God's Holy Word, that's spiritual suicide and the road to destruction,,,, so never, ever ASSUME anything, let the bible tell you. let's go on. "Genesis 22:13 "And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son."Genesis 22:14 "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. "Genesis 22:15 "And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time," (WHERE DID THE ANGEL VOICE COME FROM? ... THAT'S RIGHT HEAVEN). Genesis 22:16 "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:" (WAS THIS GOD SPEAKING OR THE ANGEL, the ANGEL, on GOD'S BEHALF). Genesis 22:17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22:18 "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.", when was this command, and WHO spoke to Abraham in this command? answer, Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am." Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
so we can see that "a Voice" from heaven is not always identified as God the Father Voice but conveys his "WORDS". so never assume anything unless the bible say so. for if we did not have the actual speaker from heaven identified, here in Genesis 22 we could ... "ASSUME" by the words spoken that it is the Father's voice. so by the guidance of the Holy Spirit we will not make this mistake of "ASSUMPTION". for when the Bible say a Voice, then we say a voice unless we're told who voice it is, (and the bible never did). so this MISTAKE of ASSUMPTION is corrected and exposed for what it is, a false ASSUMPTION.

101G.

 

[101G]

AND it even gets BETTER then that!!! = John 16:5-15

“But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

question who sent the Spirit? let's see. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
so, it is the Father who is sending the Holy Spirit.... Right? ...... Right, well let's make sure.

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"

HOLD IT, who is sending the Holy Spirit? John 14:26 above said the "Father" and John 15:26 above says the "Son".
are we getting the picture now? Jesus is the Father, and the Son who is the HOLY SPIRIT.... "Diversified".

this is just 2 easy not to comprehend. for what did the Lord say in John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;" John 14:17 "Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." HERE IT IS.... WAIT FOR IT, John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you."

he just told us that he is the Holy Spirit...... "I will not leave you comfortless" ..... "I will come to you"
how plain can one be. and he came, on Pentecost. but this is so clear, "and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"..... WHAT! FOREVER? let's check the record. Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." what did the Lord Jesus say in John 14:18? "I will not leave you comfortless" ..... "I will come to you" if he is not LEAVING US and is with us even unto the end of the world. common deduction .... he is the Comforter. amen. you can't make this up ..... for it ie WRITTEN.

101G.

 

[synergy]

@TomL. and to my brother @DavidTree. I hope this my help you in your study.
brother TomL since you cannot find that verse that says it's the Father voice, well edification time.

“A Voice From Heaven”​

Many who have been fooled by the double tongue and has been lead down a road of destruction. many by their belief, (in three persons), and from unfound hear say, have been sold a bag of worthless, (as some say), goods, that is garbage. and here is some of the garbage sold..... "the voice from heaven is the Father's voice". who told us that "LIE?". the bible never said it was the Father's voice, it said "A Voice", and the lie came in on an ASSUMPTION. many wanting to believe so hard in the three person ERROR, until they just simply ASSUME it's the Father's voice by what was said. this is not only a spiritual ERROR, but a big one.... never add or take away from the word of God. scripture, Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." many wrongly and willing make this mistake. oh yes, it's a easy mistake to make, (for we all are human, and make mistakes) ... but here, the "ASSUMPTION" is the mistake. let's examine this verse and it's implications.

first things first. in studying the bible, ... "WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" .... he will guide US in all TRUTH. and here in this setting we need his guidance. in Hermeneutics there is a section of study called the "NEAR and FAR Application". meaning what happen before, (near), will happen again in the Future, (Far) in similar application. and here, (at the Lord Jesus baptism), is a good example of this. so let the HOLY Spirit lead us in understanding this subject matter, "A VOICE FROM HEAVEN".

so "A" voice from heaven spoke but was its God's Voice? the bible does not say, only "A VOICE". so, using the Hermeneutics application of NEAR and FAR, let's see in scripture when a Voice from heaven is speaking on God's behalf. the book of Genesis, God told Abraham to sacrifice his only Begotten Son... do we see any similarities here at the Lord Jesus baptism? .... "only Begotten Son". (FAR application, Abraham only begotten Son, and NEAR application, God's only begotten Son) so God told Abraham to sacrifice his only Begotten Son, and when Abraham was about to do it, what happen? let the bible tell us. Genesis 22:10 "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." Genesis 22:11 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I." Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." HOLD IT, STOP THE PRESS, what did the angel say .... from HEAVEN? listen, "seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me". wait a second, the angel never commanded Abraham to sacrifice his ... ONLY BEGOTTEN SON... no, God did. but it was the angel speaking from ... "heaven" on God's behalf. the verse clearly states it was the angel ... "VOICE" from heaven that spoke.

never assume anything..... KNOW. and if the bible never say it was the Father's Voice, then don't ASSUME, and ADD to God's Holy Word, that's spiritual suicide and the road to destruction,,,, so never, ever ASSUME anything, let the bible tell you. let's go on. "Genesis 22:13 "And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son."Genesis 22:14 "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. "Genesis 22:15 "And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time," (WHERE DID THE ANGEL VOICE COME FROM? ... THAT'S RIGHT HEAVEN). Genesis 22:16 "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:" (WAS THIS GOD SPEAKING OR THE ANGEL, the ANGEL, on GOD'S BEHALF). Genesis 22:17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22:18 "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.", when was this command, and WHO spoke to Abraham in this command? answer, Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am." Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
so we can see that "a Voice" from heaven is not always identified as God the Father Voice but conveys his "WORDS". so never assume anything unless the bible say so. for if we did not have the actual speaker from heaven identified, here in Genesis 22 we could ... "ASSUME" by the words spoken that it is the Father's voice. so by the guidance of the Holy Spirit we will not make this mistake of "ASSUMPTION". for when the Bible say a Voice, then we say a voice unless we're told who voice it is, (and the bible never did). so this MISTAKE of ASSUMPTION is corrected and exposed for what it is, a false ASSUMPTION.

101G.

Multiple massive errors on your part. Why would Jesus need an angel to carry his voice when Jesus was present? That shows that you are presenting Jesus as a ventriloquist. We don't stoop so low. Also, the voice clearly said "My Son" so who is Jesus's Father? I will give you one guess.

 

[TomL]

@TomL. and to my brother @DavidTree. I hope this my help you in your study.
brother TomL since you cannot find that verse that says it's the Father voice, well edification time.

“A Voice From Heaven”​

Many who have been fooled by the double tongue and has been lead down a road of destruction. many by their belief, (in three persons), and from unfound hear say, have been sold a bag of worthless, (as some say), goods, that is garbage. and here is some of the garbage sold..... "the voice from heaven is the Father's voice". who told us that "LIE?". the bible never said it was the Father's voice, it said "A Voice", and the lie came in on an ASSUMPTION. many wanting to believe so hard in the three person ERROR, until they just simply ASSUME it's the Father's voice by what was said. this is not only a spiritual ERROR, but a big one.... never add or take away from the word of God. scripture, Matthew 3:17 "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." many wrongly and willing make this mistake. oh yes, it's a easy mistake to make, (for we all are human, and make mistakes) ... but here, the "ASSUMPTION" is the mistake. let's examine this verse and it's implications.

first things first. in studying the bible, ... "WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" .... he will guide US in all TRUTH. and here in this setting we need his guidance. in Hermeneutics there is a section of study called the "NEAR and FAR Application". meaning what happen before, (near), will happen again in the Future, (Far) in similar application. and here, (at the Lord Jesus baptism), is a good example of this. so let the HOLY Spirit lead us in understanding this subject matter, "A VOICE FROM HEAVEN".

so "A" voice from heaven spoke but was its God's Voice? the bible does not say, only "A VOICE". so, using the Hermeneutics application of NEAR and FAR, let's see in scripture when a Voice from heaven is speaking on God's behalf. the book of Genesis, God told Abraham to sacrifice his only Begotten Son... do we see any similarities here at the Lord Jesus baptism? .... "only Begotten Son". (FAR application, Abraham only begotten Son, and NEAR application, God's only begotten Son) so God told Abraham to sacrifice his only Begotten Son, and when Abraham was about to do it, what happen? let the bible tell us. Genesis 22:10 "And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son." Genesis 22:11 "And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I." Genesis 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." HOLD IT, STOP THE PRESS, what did the angel say .... from HEAVEN? listen, "seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me". wait a second, the angel never commanded Abraham to sacrifice his ... ONLY BEGOTTEN SON... no, God did. but it was the angel speaking from ... "heaven" on God's behalf. the verse clearly states it was the angel ... "VOICE" from heaven that spoke.

never assume anything..... KNOW. and if the bible never say it was the Father's Voice, then don't ASSUME, and ADD to God's Holy Word, that's spiritual suicide and the road to destruction,,,, so never, ever ASSUME anything, let the bible tell you. let's go on. "Genesis 22:13 "And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son."Genesis 22:14 "And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. "Genesis 22:15 "And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time," (WHERE DID THE ANGEL VOICE COME FROM? ... THAT'S RIGHT HEAVEN). Genesis 22:16 "And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:" (WAS THIS GOD SPEAKING OR THE ANGEL, the ANGEL, on GOD'S BEHALF). Genesis 22:17 "That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;" Genesis 22:18 "And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.", when was this command, and WHO spoke to Abraham in this command? answer, Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am." Genesis 22:2 "And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
so we can see that "a Voice" from heaven is not always identified as God the Father Voice but conveys his "WORDS". so never assume anything unless the bible say so. for if we did not have the actual speaker from heaven identified, here in Genesis 22 we could ... "ASSUME" by the words spoken that it is the Father's voice. so by the guidance of the Holy Spirit we will not make this mistake of "ASSUMPTION". for when the Bible say a Voice, then we say a voice unless we're told who voice it is, (and the bible never did). so this MISTAKE of ASSUMPTION is corrected and exposed for what it is, a false ASSUMPTION.

101G.

Are you going to explain how your one person God received power

From who or what?

Will you ever address these

Matthew 3:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


where we see three persons simultaneously

Who in heaven could refer to Jesus as his Son

Below we have two persons God and the word

John 1:1–2 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God.


below have Jesus crying out to the father

Matthew 27:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Was there a mode switch again

Was your Jesus just a man now?

John 17:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Father and son together in eternity oops simultaneously


The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand” (John 3:35).

For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and greaterworks than these will He show Him, so that you will marvel” (John 5:20).

Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love” (John 15:9).“I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know thatYou sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also, whomYou have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You havegiven Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:23–24).

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice out of thecloud said, “This is My beloved Son, with whom I am well-pleased; listen to Him!” (Matthew17:5).

John 5:17 (ESV) — 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”

John 8:49 (ESV) — 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me.

Matthew 10:32 (ESV) — 32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,

Luke 22:29 (ESV) — 29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,

John 15:8 (ESV) — 8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.

John 10:29 (ESV) — 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Father, glorify Your name.” There came then a voice out of heaven: “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again” (John 12:28).

Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17:1–3)

“Father, into your hands I commit My spirit” (Luke 23:46)

“All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him” (Matthew 11:27).

l. In Romans 1:7 we read, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” The same greeting is found in 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; Galatians 1:3; Ephesians 1:2; and Philippians 1:2.

John 20:17 "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God..

 

[TomL]

if so post book chapter and verse that say the voice from heaven is the Fathers voice at the Lord's baptism. you only assume that the voice is the Father's voice.

101G.

Tell me who could it be in heaven that could refer to the one you call the one person God his son?

 

[DavidTree]

again, not saying that you're right or wrong, and there is no need to figure anything out. for the answer is right here in the bible, consider this. God said via his apostle Paul this. Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" so we have no excuse for not knowing that..... God wants us to KNOW HIS GODHEAD. you were on the right track with Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" that term ECHAD/ONE is not a compound unity not in God Case, if so a compound consists of two or more before any unity. so, if he became a compound ..... to be a unity, he was more than one before he, and whatever, became a unity. and the scripture never say this. but on the OTHER HAND, the bible clearly speak of God being DIVERSE. meaning he became a "Diversity", of his OWN SELF .... in FLESH and BONE with BLOOD. and this diversity is bible based. listen, the Ordinal ...... "FIRST", and Ordinal ....... "LAST". the First and the Last tells us God is a "UNITY", but not Compound. but how and what kind of unity? here it is, HE IS A EQUAL "SHARE" OF HIMSELF IN FLESH. THE KEY TO GOD UNITY IS NOT COMPOUND, BUT EQUALLY SHARED, MEANING "WITH", AS PER. PHIL. 2:6, AND HERE IN THESE SCRIPTURES BELOW
A. Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." notice he said "I", "I", "I", a single person designation. and he said I am .... "WITH" the Last. now do Last indicate another person who is separate and distinct from him? no, because in Isaiah 48:12, listen, "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." also indicate the same person. and this is clearly explained in "DIVERSITY" of Offspring. listen,
Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." NOTICE THE TERM "OFFSPRING". it is the Greek word,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock
Root(s): G1096

BINGO, there it is diversity or as the Greek also say, the G243 Allos, or Another. this is bared out in the OT prophet
of Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."

the term "FELLOW" says it all. it is the Hebrew word,
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
[from a primitive root meaning to associate]
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.

notice definition #2. concretely, a kindred man. notice God's fellow, this man, (concretely) is God's KINDRED MAN, other words his REDEEMER. now hold that thought Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." THERE IT IS, "and his redeemer the LORD of hosts" this man, and we all know that this is speaking of the Christ, is the redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." THERE IT IS, "and his redeemer the LORD of hosts" it's right there in the scriptures we cannot miss it.

conclusion. instead of a compound unity, what about a plain old EQUAL "SHARE" of, of, of, himself in flesh. just as Isaiah 53 clearly states based on Isaiah 63:5.

understand, God is "ANOTHER"/G243 Allos of himself in Flesh. please note, when we say Son..... we're not talking biological son. no, nor Father biologically.... but we speak in term as ORDINAL FIRST, Spirit//FATHER/LORD, and Ordinal Lasts, spirit/Son/Lord IN DESIGINATATION. the terms Father and Son has nothing to do with biology ....... as in reference to gender, or sex. the terms Father/LORD, and Son/Lord is in reference to TIME, PLACE, ORDER, and RANK, again in DESIGINATATION.

knowing this, it answers the WE, and the OUR in Genesis 1:26, and the He and the Him in verse 26 afterward. and it answer the "WHO" was at the Lord Jesus baptism. and it answer the we in John 14:23. as a matter of Fact it answers every question concerning the Godhead.

as said, maybe this you might give consideration to. be blessed my Brother.

101G.

Romans Romans 1:19-20 is a favorite passage of mine

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

3 = Sun, Moon, Stars

3 = Land, Air, Water

3 = Electrons, Protons, Nucleus

3 = Rivers, Lakes, Oceans

3 = Evening, Morning, DAY

3 = Genesis, Law, GOSPEL

3 = Crucified, Buried, RISEN

3 = old temple/old earth 6, NEW Temple 7, New Earth 8

“The heavens are telling the glory of God;
and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.
Day to day pours forth speech,
and night to night declares knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
their voice is not heard;
yet their voice goes out through all the earth,
and their words to the end of the world.”