God requires man to HUMBLE THEMSELVES

[TomL]

Are you Catholic?

How many pre-Augustine Christians are there in the world?
I pointed out that both the Synod of Dort and the Articles or Remonstrances acknowledge "T" with different solutions to the problem. I pointed out that Wesleyans (which is the root of virtually all post 1800 Christian Denominations) accept "T" and Prevenient Grace as the solution.

I admit ignorance of the official position of the Catholic Church, but I believe they also accept ORIGINAL SIN (thus the need for infant baptism).

So I have no idea who you think you are appealing to as your EXCEPTION ... Third Century Christians struggling with Barbarian invasions and the collapsing Roman Empire? Earlier Christians trying hard not to be murdered? Illiterate peasants and priests of the Fourth Century that embraced paganism and superstitions?

If you go to the First Century, you arrive at John and Paul whose writing Calvinism is based upon ... like John 6:44 that you deny the clear and simple words that Jesus spoke.

Um John 6:44 is followed by

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

then of course

John 5:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[atpollard]

Actually that is false

Provisionists do not, Restoration churches do not, Anabaptist churches as well

Thank you.
Credit where it is due.
You have successfully identified the fringe 1% of Christianity that rejects "T" that @civic must be appealing to as the TRUE CHURCH (uncorrupted by the Protestant Reformation or Great Awakening or 2000 years of Catholic scholarship or what Scripture actually says in places like Ephesians 2:1-4).

 

[atpollard]

Um John 6:44 is followed by

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Yes it is. Unlike the Qu'ran ... Bible verses do not ABROGATE with later verses negating the previous verses. In the Bible BOTH must be true. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[TomL]

Thank you.
Credit where it is due.
You have successfully identified the fringe 1% of Christianity that rejects "T" that @civic must be appealing to as the TRUE CHURCH (uncorrupted by the Protestant Reformation or Great Awakening or 2000 years of Catholic scholarship or what Scripture actually says in places like Ephesians 2:1-4).

Fringe?

1% ?

Do you have facts to back that up?

Civic is correct previous to Augustine Calvinist total inability was not a part of church doctrine

 

[atpollard]

then of course

John 5:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Let's see if you are actually CAPABLE of answering a question. You picked the verse ...

• John 5:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Was Jesus saying they CHOSE TO BELIEVE or was Jesus saying they CHOSE TO NOT BELIEVE?

[Calvinists say "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." - Rom 3:11 ... so which choice of the people matches what Calvinists believe?]

 

[TomL]

Yes it is. Unlike the Qu'ran ... Bible verses do not ABROGATE with later verses negating the previous verses. In the Bible BOTH must be true. Why is that so hard to understand?

Indeed why do you not understand then?

Anyone who has heard from the father may come

and those who hear and learn will come

those who believe Moses would believe Christ

John 5:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Those who believe john the baptist would believe Christ

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

those who believed the woman believed Christ

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

Those who believe the word of the apostles believe Christ

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Those who believe John's writing believe Christ

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Those who believe the preached word believe can believe Christ

Romans 10:13–17 (KJV 1900) — 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[atpollard]

Fringe?

1% ?

Do you have facts to back that up?

Yup.
Start with "what percentage of Christians world-wide are CATHOLIC?"
Go from there.

Civic is correct previous to Augustine Calvinist total inability was not a part of church doctrine

I am correct that the Wright Brothers first flew on December 17, 1903 ... both facts are irrelevant.

 

[atpollard]

Anyone who has heard from the father may come

Not what God says ... read it again John 6:44-46.

 

[TomL]

Let's see if you are actually CAPABLE of answering a question. You picked the verse ...

• John 5:46–47 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Was Jesus saying they CHOSE TO BELIEVE or was Jesus saying they CHOSE TO NOT BELIEVE?

[Calvinists say "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." - Rom 3:11 ... so which choice of the people matches what Calvinists believe?]

First let me note you ignored multiple verses

But Jesus is noting they had not believed Moses had they believed Moses they could have believed Christ

Jesus however did not say they could not believe Moses

They chose not to believe

As i showed you elsewhere the unregenerate had the capability to believe

unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

God had to blind and harden men to prevent belief

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[TomL]

Not what God says ... read it again John 6:44-46.

Sorry it is indeed what John 6:44-45 shows

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Do you deny Moses spoke the words of the father?

John the Baptism?

The apostles?

Scripture extolls the father's words?

Men are shown throughout the bible believing because of these things

 

[TomL]

Yup.
Start with "what percentage of Christians world-wide are CATHOLIC?"
Go from there.

Sorry you have supplied no facts or numbers to show only fringe support

BTW Calvinism itself is a minority view among Protestants

Also BTW in Catholicism original sin and depravity are wiped away by infant baptism

And certain Arminians hold total depravity was removed by the sacrifice of Christ and it is applied to all men
so that they can believe

others hold that those who are known to benefit from prevenient grace are given it

 

[synergy]

If you will highlight the word regenerated in those passages, then I will examine EACH in context to see if you are correct. If they say nothing about "regenerated" then you are inserting your OPINION into those verses as FACT. So before I invest the time and effort to chase "man is able to believe", which is it? We WERE discussing SALVATION in the OT and you appeared to be arguing both sides of the topic ... they WERE saved and they WERE NOT saved. That is all I asked you to clarify.

The fact remains that there was nobody ever regenerated in the Old Testament. Regeneration occurred only after the Cross. If Calvinists have found another way to be regenerated apart from the Cross taking place then by all means please tell us.

Were "righteous men" in the OT saved without the Holy Spirit or simply saved without INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit?
(Clearly Moses. Abraham, Elijah and Enoch were saved.)

You are conflating "righteous" with "saved". There is a reason why they are two different words and every English speaking person should respect that.

 

[civic]

Fringe?

1% ?

Do you have facts to back that up?

Civic is correct previous to Augustine Calvinist total inability was not a part of church doctrine

Yep

 

[atpollard]

You said ...

Anyone who has heard from the father may come

I responded ...

Not what God says ... read it again John 6:44-46.

You denied ...

Sorry it is indeed what John 6:44-45 shows

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

FACT CHECK:

TomL: "Anyone who has heard from the father may come"
John 6: "Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

1. Does "Every man" (what God said) mean the same as "Anyone" (what TomL said)?
2. Does "commeth" (what God said) mean the same as "may come" (what TomL said)?

No. "Every man" means ALL (that is what EVERY means), so God is claiming ALL WILL; in contrast, "Anyone" implies opportunity but not necessarily response, so ALL MAY, SOME MAY or NONE MAY ... but not ALL WILL (which is what God said). "commeth" means DOES COME, so God is claiming ALL WILL COME; in contrast, "may come" does not mean does come ALL MAY COME, SOME MAY COME or NONE MAY COME ... but not ALL WILL COME (which is what God said).

So it may be what it "shows" (in your mind, which is eisegesis and opinion) but it is NOT what it "says" (which is exegesis and FACT).

 

[atpollard]

The fact remains that there was nobody ever regenerated in the Old Testament. Regeneration occurred only after the Cross. If Calvinists have found another way to be regenerated apart from the Cross taking place then by all means please tell us.

You are conflating "righteous" with "saved". There is a reason why they are two different words and every English speaking person should respect that.

You are splitting semantic hairs to avoid the question.

Were people in the OT saved?
Were they changed internally by God (irrespective of "anointing" vs "indwelling")?

"Regeneration" occurs only after the cross [technically, only after Pentecost according to some]. (Let's take that as a given for this discussion.)

Was anyone saved without regeneration?
Were the sins of all whom Jesus pronounced "your sins are forgiven" forgiven without regeneration?
Did the thief on the cross enter "paradise" without regeneration? Elijah? Enoch?

 

[atpollard]

If Calvinists have found another way to be regenerated apart from the Cross taking place then by all means please tell us.

If your only tool is a HAMMER (to bash Calvinism), then every post looks like a (calvinist) NAIL.

Very little has to do with T.U.L.I.P and soteriology.

 

[civic]

You are splitting semantic hairs to avoid the question.

Were people in the OT saved?
Were they changed internally by God (irrespective of "anointing" vs "indwelling")?

"Regeneration" occurs only after the cross [technically, only after Pentecost according to some]. (Let's take that as a given for this discussion.)

Was anyone saved without regeneration?
Were the sins of all whom Jesus pronounced "your sins are forgiven" forgiven without regeneration?
Did the thief on the cross enter "paradise" without regeneration? Elijah? Enoch?

Everyone was saved by faith in the OT. No one was born again / regenerate until Pentecost.

 

[TomL]

You said ...

And I repeat

Anyone who has heard from the father may come (He must learn - his responsibility - then he will come)

And anyone who learns after hearing will come

Who is responsible for learning?

Atpollard: FACT CHECK:

TomL: "Anyone who has heard from the father may come"
John 6: "Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

1. Does "Every man" (what God said) mean the same as "Anyone" (what TomL said)?
2. Does "commeth" (what God said) mean the same as "may come" (what TomL said)?

What you ignore is man's responsibility to learn

anyone who after having heard, then learns will come so that everyone who has heard and learned will come

In this case the anyone and the everyone are the same

Atpollard
So it may be what it "shows" (in your mind, which is eisegesis and opinion) but it is NOT what it "says" (which is exegesis and FACT).

Sorry but you have provided nothing at all to show that learning is not the man's responsibility and that is what your theology requires

and you still ignore

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[civic]

And I repeat

Anyone who has heard from the father may come (He must learn - his responsibility)

And anyone who learns after hearing will come

Who is responsible for learning?







What you ignore is man's responsibility to learn

anyone who after having heard, then learns will come so that everyone who has heard and learned will come

In this case the anyone and the everyone are the same




Sorry but you have provided nothing at all to show that learning is not the man's responsibility and that is what you theology requires
and you still ignore
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Ditto

 

[TomL]

Ditto

amen