Agreed.
Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism
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GodsGrace
Well-known member
Jim,,,I caught someone on YouTube discussing what you believe a few days ago but I can't remember his name.
He was on The Idol Killer, Warren McGrew, discussing a debate he had with James White. In this hour-long video of his, he described what you believe. I think his first initials are RV......
I didn't know there were Christians that believed this.
I mean about getting the spirit at birth....becoming lost at the first sin....
I'm not going to debate this, but just to say that I can't agree based on scripture.
And...based on how man is composed:
BODY
SOUL
SPIRIT
Everyone has a body and a soul.
When a person believes in God and follows Him, it means he has obtained spirit.
It is the spirit that connects us to God.
So what you're believing is that we are born saved and become lost.
But Christianity believes we are born lost and become saved.
How would you interprety
John 3:18
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
He who does not believe has ALREADY BEEN JUDGED....
Not going to debate this...just interested in how you understand this.
civic
Well-known member
I like idol killer- he is a former calvinist
I think you are a bit confused about the composition of the human being with respect to the body, soul and spirit. I won't spend a lot of time on it here. Basically, man is a soul; he has a body and a spirit. In looking at the Genesis creation account, we see that the Hebrew word "nephesh" is variously translated as creature, being, life, soul etc. In Genesis 1:21 it is translated in most English verses as creature.
(ESV) Gen 1:21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature [Hebrew - nephesh] that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Also in Genesis 1:24:
(ESV) Gen 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures [Hebrew - nephesh] according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
In Genesis 1:30 the Hebrew word nephesh is typically translated as life or living thing
(KJV) Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life [Hebrew - nephesh], I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
This verse follows the discussion of God's creating man (Gen 1:26-3o). Then in Genesis 2:4-8 we find a little more detail in the creation of man, specifically in verse 7 where we read,
(KJV) Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul [Hebrew - nephesh].
We also see in verse 7 that God breathed into man the breath [Hebrew - neshamah] of life. Here the Hebrew word is variously translated as wind, breath, soul, spirit.
From all of this we conclude that soul [Hebrew -nephesh] applies to all living things, all living creatures, animals and man. Only man, however, is ever said to have been given the breath [Hebrew - neshamah] of life, i.e., the spirit. From this we see that in the OT, both man and animals are said to be souls. Both have bodies of flesh. Only man is said to have or be spirit. Therefore, I interpret this to say that man is a soul; he has a body of flesh and a spirit. It is the spirit that distinguishes the human being from the animals.
As you read through the entire OT, you will find this to be true. The other thing that you will find is that when the subject concerns the human being, the Hebrew words for soul and spirit are often used interchangeably.
We see this very same thing being carried through the NT as well. The Greek words psuche for soul and pheuma for spirit correspond to the Hebrew words nephesh for soul and neshamah for spirit. In the NT as in the OT, when speaking of the human being, soul and spirit are almost always used interchangeably.
It is in the spirit that man is made in the image of God.
Strictly speaking, we are not born saved. Saved indicates once being lost. When we are born we are given a spirit, just as Adam was. That spirit is from God. God gives each and every person, every human being, his own personal spirit at or sometime before birth. That spirit is untainted by sin. It is alive and well. It becomes damaged, depraved but not totally depraved, when that person sins. That person then becomes dead in sin. Paul speaks of this in Romans 7:7-25.
Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
I would point out here that this aligns perfectly with Paul's statement in Romans 5 where he says, "sin is not counted where there is no law".
Some branches of Christianity believe in the false doctrine of Original Sin.
The whole point of this is that believing or not believing, disbelieving, is the key. The newborn neither believes nor disbelieves. One must be mentally capable of believing. The newborn (or the sufficiently mentally deficient) is incapable of either. One must be at a level of intellectual ability to know that God requires obedience and that disobedience will be punished. That is what it means to believe.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
OK.
Yes...actually I have heard this before regarding Genesis and the breathing of life into man.
Yes,,,the spirit does distinguish man from animals who cannot have a spirit because they cannot know about God.
You state that neshama could be translated in different ways.....this is why it's important to know the theology of Christianity...
not what someone came up with to explain a doctrine they don't like.
In the beginning of the church ORIGINAL SIN just mean exactly that THE FIRST SIN...THE ORIGINAL SIN.
Augustine changed the meaning.
We shouldn't let Augustine change Christian theology.
We are not born GUILTY of Adam's sin....just damaged by it, or stained by it....
Stained by this OS.
Augustine put forth the idea IN THE 5TH CENTURY that man is actually guilty of the sin.
This is NOT correct and is not accepted by Christianity as we understand it to this day.
It seems to me that you're letting this mistake of Augustine cloud every other belief of yours regarding
the salvation of children...
IOW,,,in order to believe that children are born innocent,,,you find it necessary to misapply all other theology regarding the make up of man.
Soul and Spirit are used interchangeably...but we can know, today, that they mean something totally different...
just as we know that the emotions of man are not in the heart (as was spoken of in the OT).
I agree with your last line...it's about believing or disbelieving.
Those that believe have the spirit of God dwelling in them.
Those that disbelieve do not have the spirit of God dwelling in them.
I DO understand your position.
No we are not damaged or stained by anything that Adam did.
Augustine actually invented the concept of Total Depravity. It is basically the notion that in the sin of Adam the entire company of mankind not only was guilty of Adam's sin, but was therefore incapable of even understanding at any level anything about God or what God has said. And that was due to his conviction of the Gnostic belief that flesh, by its very nature, is inherently evil.
Good.
That is almost true. Believing in God is certainly a prerequisite. Jesus said that one must be born again, i.e., one must be born of water and Spirit. It certainly begins with believing.
Yes, I know that you do not understand. But I believe my position is the only true position.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
I understand your position.
You believe we become stained at our first sin....
Agreed 100%
What does born of water mean?
I DO understand...I just don't agree.
There is something in man that makes him commit that first sin.
But we won't be changing our minds and I really like soteriology the best.
civic
Well-known member
yes soteriology is primary.
Yes. God does not impute the sin of one to another. And that includes Adam's sin.
First, the interpretation of water in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus as the amniotic water of birth is simply ludicrous. No such euphemism of born in water being the physical birth was ever presented in the Bible. No such euphemism exists since. It was introduced by theologians objecting to water baptism in connection with salvation by God. Moreover Jesus, in the discussion dismissed His entire discussion of being born again as being associated with the live physical birth in his answer to Nicodemus' question of whether a man can entire a second time into his mother's womb and be born. Jesus was clearly speaking only of spiritual birth, and specifically spiritual REbirth. His answer to Nicodemus was "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit". Besides all of that, making regeneration, i.e., spiritual rebirth dependent upon being physically born would have been all rather stupid and certainly not selective in any sense whatsoever.
I believe it is a reference to water baptism. The baptism in water for the forgiveness of sin was well established by John the Baptism before Jesus entered into His nearly three year ministry ending with His death, burial and resurrection followed by His ascension. He continued, through His disciples, the practice of water baptism even after John the Baptist. Given the numbers that responded to John and then to Jesus, water baptism was well documented and accepted as a prerequisite for being saved.
Both Matthew and Mark close out their gospels with a call to water baptism in connection with becoming disciples of Jesus.
OK
Yes, and that something is the same thing that brought Adam to commit his first sin. It is basically the human nature established within man when God created him. It is known by many names, phrases, etc. but is well described by the characteristic installed in man which we often refer to as free will. It is the capability to choose to obey or to disobey any of God's commands. It is energized with man's desires, however those came about. John refers to them in 1 John 2:16:
1Jn 2:16 For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life--is not from the Father but is from the world.
Yes, soteriology is important. But always know and remember that soteriology is at its heart the concern of the spirit of a man, from beginning to the end.
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GodsGrace
Well-known member
Of course. This is what the bible teaches.
Each person is responsible for their own sin.
When I was first saved and started reading the bible, I did come to believe that WATER mean amniotic fluid.
This made a lot of sense to me.
IOW,,,,we must be born ONE TIME physically....
and then we must also be born AGAIN in another way.....spiritually.
Agreed on everything you've stated about baptism.
Instead, to me, Nicodemus' question seems to point to birth:
CAN A MAN ENTER AGAIN INTO HIS MOTHER'S WOMB?
He understood it as physical birth....not baptism.
And how does THAT WHICH IS BORN OF FLESH IS FLESH AND THAT WHICH IS BORN OF SPIRIT IS SPIRIT...point to baptism?
Isn't it just stating that we need to be born 2X? Once physically and once spiritually?
I'm just not so sure.
I do believe we must be baptized.
As to your last sentence:
"spiritual rebirth dependent upon being physically born would have been all rather stupid and certainly not selective in any sense whatsoever."
I do think it makes sense because,,,yes, we must be born first...
and then comes spiritual birth.
The NT does very much divide THE FLESH from THE SPIRIT.
Romans 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
I don't mean to sound dogmatic...just putting down my thoughts.
Prerequisite?
Or after?
But at some time,,,that's for sure.
As I said,,,I do agree.
I don't believe free will explains all the evil in the world.
It explains man's evil....our decisions affect everyone and cause much distress.
However, evil is also in nature.
A soft breeze can turn into a hurricane.
A light rain can turn into a storm.
Tornadoes, earthquakes, etc.
And some medical conditions over which we have no control.
How would you explain those?
And how do you explain
Romans 8:19-21
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
We are born the first time physically and spiritually.; physically by our parents and spiritually by God. When we sin, the Bible describes what happens, namely, we die spiritually. Thus we must be reborn spiritually of water and Spirit.
Those are not evil. Evil is only a condition of the human being (or I guess the angels, but none of this is about angels). Nothing else in the world is evil.
The word creation there should really be translated/interpreted as creature, meaning mankind.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Not going to comment further on your belief system.
I do want to say that Romans 8:20-22 is referring to ALL of creation.
Romans 8:19-23
19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together * until now.
23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Verse 19: refers to ALL of creation.
Verse 22: refers to THE WHOLE CREATION.
Verse 23: now this speaks to US...WE OURSELVES...
EVEN WE OURSELVES GROAN.....
Verse 19 should be: ALL THINGS CREATED.
Only the KJV uses the word CREATURE.
New International Version
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
Amplified Version
For [even the whole] creation [all nature] waits eagerly for the children of God to be revealed.
New Living Translation
For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.
English Standard Version
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
Berean Standard Bible
The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.
Berean Literal Bible
For the earnest expectation of the creation awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
King James Bible
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
New King James Version
For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
New American Standard Bible
For the eagerly awaiting creation waits for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God.
NASB 1995
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
NASB 1977
For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Legacy Standard Bible
For the anxious longing of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
Amplified Bible
For [even the whole] creation [all nature] waits eagerly for the children of God to be revealed.
Christian Standard Bible
For the creation eagerly waits with anticipation for God’s sons to be revealed.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the creation eagerly waits with anticipation for God’s sons to be revealed.
American Standard Version
For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
Contemporary English Version
In fact, all creation is eagerly waiting for God to show who his children are.
English Revised Version
For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the revealing of the sons of God.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
All creation is eagerly waiting for God to reveal who his children are.
Good News Translation
All of creation waits with eager longing for God to reveal his children.
International Standard Version
For the creation is eagerly awaiting the revelation of God's children,
NET Bible
For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God.
New Heart English Bible
For the creation waits with eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Webster's Bible Translation
For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Weymouth New Testament
For all creation, gazing eagerly as if with outstretched neck, is waiting and longing to see the manifestation of the sons of God.
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.
None of Romans 8:18-23 really makes any sense if you include the entire brute creation and the animal kingdom apart from human beings. The sun, the moon and the stars do not wait in eager expectation of anything. And the same for the animals, Only mankind can have the capacity for anything being presented in that passage.
If you disagree, please explain in what capacity can any besides man possibly exhibit anything presented there, including longing, awaiting, futility, bondage, freedom, groaning.
He didn't.
He said "πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις" [all the creation]. This is essentially the same thing that Mark said, " πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει." [the whole creation] in Mark 16:15. Except there the whole creation is recognized as being everyone, i.e., every person, not the animals nor the brute inanimate creation. Thus Romans 8 should also be limited to mankind, not the animals nor the brute inanimate creation.
From Strong's:
G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
ktis'-is
From G2936; original formation (properly the act; by implication the thing, literally or figuratively): - building, creation, creature, ordinance.
From Thayer:
G2937
κτίσις
ktisis
Thayer Definition:
1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc
1a) the act of creating, creation
1b) creation, i.e. thing created
1b1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
1b1a) anything created
1b1b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
1b1c) the sum or aggregate of things created
1c) institution, ordinance
civic
Well-known member
See below how it is used in Romans 8
b. collectively, the sum or aggregate of created things: Revelation 3:14 (on which see ἀρχή, 3; (ἡ κτίσις τῶν ἀνθρώπων, Teaching of the Twelve etc.
c. 16 [ET])); ὅλῃ ἡ κτίσις, Wis. 19:6; πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις, Judith 16:14; and without the article (cf. Grimm on 3 Macc. (), p. 235; (Lightfoot on Col. as below)), πᾶσα κτίσις, Colossians 1:15; 3Macc. 2:2; Judith 9:12; σωτήρ πάσης κτίσεως, Acta Thomae, p. 19 edition Thilo (sec. 10, p. 198, Tdf. edition) (see πᾶς, I. 1 c.); ἀπ' ἀρχῆς κτίσεως, Mark 10:6; Mark 13:19; 2 Peter 3:4; οὐ ταύτης τῆς κτίσεως, not of this order of created things, Hebrews 9:11; accusative to the demands of the context, of some particular kind or class of created things or beings: thus of the human race, πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει, Mark 16:15; ἐν πάσῃ (Rec. adds τῇ) κτίσει τῇ ὑπό τόν οὐρανοῦ, among men of every race, Colossians 1:23; the aggregate of irrational creatures, both animate and inanimate (what we call nature), Romans 8:19-2. (Wis. 5:17 (); ); πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις, Romans 8:22; where cf. Reiche, Philippi, Meyer, Rükert, others (Arnold in Bapt. Quart. for Apr. 1867, pp. 143-153).
• Key Biblical Passages:
• Romans 8:19-22 (BSB): "The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time."
• Here, κτίσις is personified, expressing the anticipation of creation for the ultimate redemption and renewal that will come with the full revelation of God's children.
Again, please explain, specifically and literally, what it means for the sun, moon and stars to "wait in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God".
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