Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

... and we are commanded to Obey the whole Law of God:

• [2Ki 21:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law my servant Moses ordered them to obey."
• [2Ch 33:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law, the rules and regulations given to Moses."
• [Gal 5:3 NET] 3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

... yet no one does:

Not everyone obeys God do they atpollard?
Why is that?

In reformed theology it's because GOD decreed them to not obey.

In every other denomination it's because man has Free Will to either obey God or not obey God.

Joshua 24:14-15
14 "Now, therefore, fear the LORD and serve Him in sincerity and truth; and put away the gods which your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

• [Rom 3:10-12 NET] 10 just as it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one, 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one."

[TOTAL INABILITY]

Romans 3:10 is referring to Psalm 14:1-5.
It's referring to FOOLISH men who do not believe in God.
They are corrupt and have decided THERE IS NO GOD.

See verse 5:
Psalm 14:5
5For God is with the Righteous Generation.

Apparently, there was a righteous generation.
And that righteous generation contained righteous men.


These are the righteous:
Psalm 15:1-3
1 O LORD, who may abide * in Your tent? Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness, And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue, Nor does evil to his neighbor, Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;


Seems like there ARE some righteous.

Scripture never conflicts with itself.

 

[GodsGrace]

So ... no one can come unless God draws them and God draws everyone so everyone can come.
Is THAT really the message you believe that Jesus was attempting to teach in John 6?

John 6:41-52 [NLT]

Then the people began to murmur in disagreement because he had said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They said, "Isn't this Jesus, the son of Joseph? We know his father and mother. How can he say, 'I came down from heaven'?" ​

​

But Jesus replied, "Stop complaining about what I said. For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the Scriptures, 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.) ​

​

"I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life. Yes, I am the bread of life! Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died. Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh." ​

​

Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" they asked.​

So you DO want to discuss the word DRAW....

YES.
God draws everyone and everyone can come to Him.

All those that reply YES to God's DRAWING....are given to Jesus because HE is our salvation.


God loves the whole world and ANYONE who believes will be saved.

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.




A person must ACCEPT Jesus testimony. Acceptance implies free will.

John 3:11
11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.


THEY WILL ALL BE TAUGHT BY GOD.....

Yes indeed.
We will all HEAR.

BUT will we all learn?

Jesus said "Everyone who listens to the Father AND LEARNS"

We must listen AND learn.
Not everyone learns.
See John 3:11....not everyone will accept Jesus' testimony.

 

[atpollard]

IF you can find some verses that do not SEEM to comply with my statements...
you are free to post them (POST THEM) and we could discuss.

I tried ... you will discuss anything and everything except THEM (like John 6:44 "No one can come to me ...")

So as my parting gift ...

No one can come:

• John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."

No one will come.

• John 3:19-20 "people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, ..."

No one does come.

• Romans 3:10-12 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Therefore GOD did something about it.

God DRAWS:

• John 6:44 "... unless the Father who sent me draws him ..."

God gives GIFTS to the spiritually DEAD:

• Ephesians 2:1-10 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

God orchestrates every step of His GOLDEN CHAIN:

• Romans 8:29-30 "those whom he foreknew he also predestined ... And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

God WORKS in us to persevere:

• Philippians 2:13 "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

 

[atpollard]

yet we can seek God..

seeking god is not even close to being perfect. We seek God because we realise we are not perfect..

thats why the law points to Christ as a schoolmaster

Are you naturally argumentative or incapable of seeing the point?

I was presented with a verse that God commanded men to do something as if that PROVED that men were able to do it, so I offered THREE verses that commanded men to do something that men NEVER achieve to point out that the argument made that "the other verse commanded it, therefore it must be possible" is a false assumption. God DOES command things that men cannot do (to prove that we cannot save ourselves and NEED him).

 

[atpollard]

So you DO want to discuss the word DRAW....

Only with someone that will first honestly discuss the words that come BEFORE "draw" in John 6:44.

You are not that person.

Jesus said "No one can come to me ..." and you say "everyone can come to Jesus" ... so either YOU or JESUS got it wrong.

 

[GodsGrace]

... and we are commanded to Obey the whole Law of God:

• [2Ki 21:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law my servant Moses ordered them to obey."
• [2Ch 33:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law, the rules and regulations given to Moses."
• [Gal 5:3 NET] 3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

... yet no one does:

• [Rom 3:10-12 NET] 10 just as it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one, 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one."

[TOTAL INABILITY]

I tried ... you will discuss anything and everything except THEM (like John 6:44 "No one can come to me ...")

So as my parting gift ...

No one can come:

• John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."

No one will come.

• John 3:19-20 "people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, ..."

No one does come.

• Romans 3:10-12 "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Therefore GOD did something about it.

God DRAWS:

• John 6:44 "... unless the Father who sent me draws him ..."

God gives GIFTS to the spiritually DEAD:

• Ephesians 2:1-10 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

God orchestrates every step of His GOLDEN CHAIN:

• Romans 8:29-30 "those whom he foreknew he also predestined ... And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

God WORKS in us to persevere:

• Philippians 2:13 "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

Not reading the above apollard. Since you don't wish to continue...
why should I??

I've noticed that you reply to everyone but have a problem discussing with me.


Must be some reason why....
Maybe the horrible way I treat you.

I did notice in your post prior to this one that you also mentioned how man does not keep THE LAW...and posted 3 verses from the OT.

Are you not aware that we are NOT under THE LAW?
Jesus abolished The Law....
Both the civil and ceremonial laws are abolished and, really, cannot even be kept anymore.

Only the Moral Law lives on forever and this is the only law we are to obey...
to the best of our ability, of course.

We are under GRACE and Not under THE LAW.

AND

I thought you didn't want to discuss DRAW....
but we got that out of the way too.

There's a difference between DRAW and DRAG.
See
Acts 17:6
6 When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, "These men who have upset the world have come here also;

 

[GodsGrace]

Only with someone that will first honestly discuss the words that come BEFORE "draw" in John 6:44.

You are not that person.

Jesus said "No one can come to me ..." and you say "everyone can come to Jesus" ... so either YOU or JESUS got it wrong.

What a great response atpollard.

YOU don't KNOW what Jesus said.

You must have missed my page full of verses that prove what comes before DRAW.....
your idea that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD....TOTAL DEPRAVITY/TOTAL INABILITY.



You know what John Calvin said.

Follow Jesus...
not John Calvin.

 

[atpollard]

Where is HOPE in the Calvinist "gospel"??

If ONLY that was an honest question.

 

[atpollard]

Not everyone obeys God do they atpollard?
Why is that?

Another person that cannot see the point ...

I was presented with a verse that God commanded men to do something as if that PROVED that men were able to do it, so I offered THREE verses that commanded men to do something that men NEVER achieve to point out that the argument made that "the other verse commanded it, therefore it must be possible" is a false assumption. God DOES command things that men cannot do (to prove that we cannot save ourselves and NEED him).​

 

[GodsGrace]

Are you naturally argumentative or incapable of seeing the point?

I was presented with a verse that God commanded men to do something as if that PROVED that men were able to do it, so I offered THREE verses that commanded men to do something that men NEVER achieve to point out that the argument made that "the other verse commanded it, therefore it must be possible" is a false assumption. God DOES command things that men cannot do (to prove that we cannot save ourselves and NEED him).

@Eternally-Grateful gets the point.

And I replied to your 3 verses 2 TIMES.
You appaently think we're still under THE LAW.

You MUST reconcile conflicting statements.
You just like to stick to Romans 3:10 because it's ALL you have.

GOD DOES NOT COMMAND THINGS MAN CANNOT DO.

THEY CAN DO THEM IF
THEY WISH TO DO THEM.

The problem here is that you don't believe in FREE WILL.

Every single point in TULIP is incorrect and causes biblical conflict.

 

[Johann]

Are you naturally argumentative or incapable of seeing the point?

I was presented with a verse that God commanded men to do something as if that PROVED that men were able to do it, so I offered THREE verses that commanded men to do something that men NEVER achieve to point out that the argument made that "the other verse commanded it, therefore it must be possible" is a false assumption. God DOES command things that men cannot do (to prove that we cannot save ourselves and NEED him).

That’s called a paradox, the tension we find in Scripture, brother. Scripture interprets Scripture, and we should approach it with an Eastern mindset, not a Western one, as Miles Coverdale would suggest.

Otherwise, all we’re left with is a lot of proof-texting that ignores context, genre, and the original audience.

Miles Coverdale, in his preface to his Bible translations, stressed the importance of understanding the historical and literary context of Scripture. While he wasn't as explicitly known for formalizing interpretive methods, his work highlighted several key principles that align with these considerations. For instance, Coverdale emphasized:

Who: Who wrote the Scripture and who the intended audience was. Understanding the author’s background and the original audience's circumstances was vital for correct interpretation.

What: What the Scripture is saying in its historical and literary context. This includes considering the genre (whether poetry, narrative, law, etc.) and the overall message of the text.

Where: Where the events took place, understanding the geographical and cultural setting that could affect the meaning of the text.

Why: Why the Scripture was written—its purpose. Coverdale often stressed that Scripture should be read with an understanding of the divine purpose behind it, including the spiritual lessons and moral teachings that apply to the reader’s life.

Johann.

 

[GodsGrace]

Another person that cannot see the point ...

I was presented with a verse that God commanded men to do something as if that PROVED that men were able to do it, so I offered THREE verses that commanded men to do something that men NEVER achieve to point out that the argument made that "the other verse commanded it, therefore it must be possible" is a false assumption. God DOES command things that men cannot do (to prove that we cannot save ourselves and NEED him).​

Well, I DID reply to the above....

I think you just don't like my biblical replies.

Again:
GOD DOES NOT COMMAND THINGS MAN CANNOT DO.
(how mean do you think God is anyway?)
(Is God just playing games with us?)

THEY CAN DO THEM IF
THEY WISH TO DO THEM.

Man has free will.
That clears up a lof of conflict created by the U and the I

 

[Johann]

Are you not aware that we are NOT under THE LAW?
Jesus abolished The Law....
Both the civil and ceremonial laws are abolished and, really, cannot even be kept anymore.

Only the Moral Law lives on forever and this is the only law we are to obey...
to the best of our ability, of course.

Ditto!! We are NOT lawless.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

If ONLY that was an honest question.

It IS an honest question.

There is no gospel in reformed theology.
There is no love in reformed theology.
There is no justice in reformed theology.
There is no hope in reformed theology.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ditto!! We are NOT lawless.

J.

Agreed.
We have the commands Jesus left us with...
the moral commands.
We can only try to keep them to the best of our ability....
no one is perfect except for Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

I've noticed that you reply to everyone but have a problem discussing with me.
Must be some reason why....
Maybe the horrible way I treat you.

You will not discuss any verse that I point to, except to offer a barrage of verses that prove that Scripture Lied and must mean the opposite of what it says. For example, you have NOTHING to say about John 6:44. You present verses to prove that all CAN come to Jesus (when John 6:44 literally says "No one can come to me") and you present another verse on "draw" and an argument about Universalism to prove that Draw cannot mean Draw. You never actually comment on the actual words in John 6:44 or its context in John 6.


Since you refuse to really discuss any verse that I suggest ("no it doesn't mean what it says" is not really a discussion), I am disinclined to discuss any verse that you present. If you had addressed John 6:44, I would have responded to any one verse that YOU wanted to talk about (including chasing the word DRAW through scripture if that is what you wanted.)

The reason is just that simple.

 

[GodsGrace]

Another person that cannot see the point ...

I was presented with a verse that God commanded men to do something as if that PROVED that men were able to do it, so I offered THREE verses that commanded men to do something that men NEVER achieve to point out that the argument made that "the other verse commanded it, therefore it must be possible" is a false assumption. God DOES command things that men cannot do (to prove that we cannot save ourselves and NEED him).​

And this idea that those that are not reformed are trying to SAVE THEMSELVES is really tiring.
NO CHRISTAN believes he can SAVE HIMSELF.
Why would Jesus have had to atone for our sins?

STRAWMAN.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you naturally argumentative or incapable of seeing the point?

Are you so perfect you think you know it all. That you would dare ask such a question?

I am capable of seeing a point, if a point can be made. I do not agree with any point you have made.

I was presented with a verse that God commanded men to do something as if that PROVED that men were able to do it, so I offered THREE verses that commanded men to do something that men NEVER achieve to point out that the argument made that "the other verse commanded it, therefore it must be possible" is a false assumption. God DOES command things that men cannot do (to prove that we cannot save ourselves and NEED him).

lol.. But the point fails

Because I can chose God and God says so.

Are you incapable of looking gat the word.

The law was a schoolmaster to lead us to christ.

If the law is unable to lead us to christ.. then the law has no purpose..

Try to open up some, and not think you have everything set in stone.. Not everyone is going to see things the way you do. What may be perfectly acceptable in your view. May be totally nonsensical for someone else.

it does not mean they are argumentative.. Thats the words of a proud man who is not getting his way

 

[atpollard]

Well, I DID reply to the above....

I think you just don't like my biblical replies.

Again:
GOD DOES NOT COMMAND THINGS MAN CANNOT DO.
(how mean do you think God is anyway?)
(Is God just playing games with us?)

THEY CAN DO THEM IF
THEY WISH TO DO THEM.

Man has free will.
That clears up a lof of conflict created by the U and the I

How many people obeyed the Law of Moses?
exactly 1 ... Jesus.

Does the fact that God Incarnate was the ONLY person (EVER) that exercised his "free will" to obey say something?
It does to me.

Choose Disobey = 100%
Choose Obey = 0%

We should come up with a name for that ... what about "Total Inability"?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@Eternally-Grateful gets the point.

And I replied to your 3 verses 2 TIMES.
You appaently think we're still under THE LAW.

You MUST reconcile conflicting statements.
You just like to stick to Romans 3:10 because it's ALL you have.

GOD DOES NOT COMMAND THINGS MAN CANNOT DO.

THEY CAN DO THEM IF
THEY WISH TO DO THEM.

The problem here is that you don't believe in FREE WILL.

Every single point in TULIP is incorrect and causes biblical conflict.

The law is not even a command.

God did not say keep this and you will be saved

On the contrary, he said cursed is the one who does not confirm and obey every word,

Thats how the law is to lead us, as we realise, we are curated. Because we did not heed and obey every word