Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

Thought the topic was UNABLE-I addressed it knowing context and now you want to go to "SEEK?"

Do you deny the text?

So want do you want to study? SEEK or UNABLE?

J.
UNABLE TO SEEK Johann.
I don't study WORDS...
I study the bible in its complete form.

The topic is:
IS MAN UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

So, are you going to reply to John 6:44?
seems atpollard doesn't care to because he might have realized the difficulty.
 
UNABLE TO SEEK Johann.
I don't study WORDS...
I study the bible in its complete form.

The topic is:
IS MAN UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

So, are you going to reply to John 6:44?
seems atpollard doesn't care to because he might have realized the difficulty.
I thought I had already given a thoughtful response to your repeated insistence on reading the text as saying man is “unable to seek God”—a claim which itself you appear ἀδύνατος (adynatos, Greek: "incapable, powerless") to critically examine.

Now, having answered, I am accused of being wrong because, supposedly, I "don’t read context"-while you dismiss word studies entirely? Or accusing me that I’m "writing books"?

But let’s ask honestly-what does “unable” even mean when we examine it in the Koine languages?

In Greek, the term often used is οὐ δύναται (ou dynatai), from δύναμαι, meaning "to be able, to have power or capacity." When preceded by οὐ (not), it expresses inability or powerlessness—i.e., "he is not able." This is where I read total inability, in line with the text and care less what Calvin is saying.

This is the case in texts like John 6:44 (οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με), "no one is able to come to me."

In Hebrew, the equivalent sense is conveyed with words like יָכוֹל (yakhol, "to be able") negated—e.g., לֹא יוּכַל (lo yukhal, "he cannot, he is not able") as seen in Genesis 37:4 (וְלֹא יָכְלוּ דַּבְּרוֹ לְשָׁלוֹם – “and they could not speak to him peaceably”).

So before asserting dogmatically that the Bible teaches man is "able to seek God," would it not be responsible—especially if you dismiss commentary—to at least investigate whether these specific verbs of inability are even present in your proof texts?

Do you not care enough to check that for yourself?

You assert that “man is able to seek God,” yet the very Scriptures declare the opposite-have you truly examined the text, or are you asserting your conclusion against the plain reading?

Let me know and I will give the texts in a visual format Sorella. Anything to help you out.

J.
 
What did God say about him in Job 1:22 and Job 2:10 ?
I don’t know.
I did not look it up.
If I had looked it up, I would still have needed to INFER your thoughts (since my mind reading sucks).
Therefore, it seemed best to just ask you what you meant (see post #108).

The post you quoted (post #118) was a response to another poster who suggested that nobody had said ANYTHING about sin and I was conflating RIGHTEOUS with SINLESS, so I quoted your post to demonstrate that you had mentioned BOTH righteous and without sin (so I did not conflate the two, both were being discussed).
 
What did God say about him in Job 1:22 and Job 2:10 ?
Job did not sin neither impute folly (tiphlāh) to God, nor sinned with his lips.

In Job 1-2, the text explicitly states Job did not sin (Job 1:22, 2:10) in response to his trials, maintaining his “blameless and upright” character (Job 1:1, 1:8, 2:3). No specific sin is recorded in these chapters.

However, as a human, Job was not sinless (cf. Romans 3:23), and his later complaints (Job 3-31) and repentance (Job 42:6) suggest imperfections, though not outright rebellion in Job 1-2. The focus is on his exemplary faith under trial.

God’s View in Job 1:22 and 2:10:

Job 1:22: The inspired narrative states, “In all this Job did not sin (lō’-ḥāṭā’) or charge God with wrong (tiphlâ),” affirming Job’s righteous response to losing his wealth and children, as he worshipped God (Job 1:20-21).

Job 2:10: The narrative states, “In all this Job did not sin (lō’-ḥāṭā’) with his lips (biśpātāyw),” commending Job’s verbal faithfulness despite physical suffering and his wife’s provocation, as he accepted God’s will (Job 2:10a).

Though not God’s direct speech, these verses reflect divine approval, consistent with God’s praise of Job’s blamelessness and integrity (Job 1:8, 2:3).

What a man.


J.
 
Once again... even though the above is not for me....
HERE is who has the ability to seek God. See below.
THE BIBLE states that man is ABLE TO SEEK GOD.
Reformed/calvinist theology states that man is NOT able to seek God.

WHO IS RIGHT?

Apparently you did not read my post no. 25...
nor have you read the bible lately.
Stop reading the Confessions and start reading scripture...
what GOD wants you to know:

MAN IS ABLE TO SEEK GOD -- unlike what Calvinism teaches...

Matthew 6:33

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.


Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.


Matthew 7:7-8
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.


Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.


James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


Acts 17:27
That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,



I tend to believe what God states.
Excellent Scripture GG and yet there is John 6:44 what seems (emphasis added) contradictory, but that can't be because Christ said other things as well, for example the 2 verses of Matt you quoted.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Jesus is speaking to the unbelieving Jews, not us. For us raised with the NT it's easy to believe in Jesus. And perhaps that's the key to understand what Jesus meant. As we read the chapter further Jesus (with v44 in mind) even put the 12 and other disciples (followers) to the test, verses 53-58.

John 6:60 - When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”

John 6:65 - And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

Note that in v65 Christ repeats what He said in v44.

The result of the test shows it was not given to all those who walked with Jesus He was the Messiah.

------

Let's not forget Jesus was speaking to Jews who believed in God but not in Him.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me was a big issue for the Jews of His time, not for us.

Bottom line, no Calvinism.
 
You respect contra-biblical heresy and reject the scriptural Doctrines of Grace, so noted. :rolleyes:

No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44
The point being is that Jesus said this to the unbelieving Jews of that time who did not believe He was the Messiah.

Jesus did not say : No one can come to God
But No one can come to Me
 
Excellent Scripture GG and yet there is John 6:44 what seems (emphasis added) contradictory, but that can't be because Christ said other things as well, for example the 2 verses of Matt you quoted.
Exactly.
Which is why Romans 3:10 is also a verse that should not be used to show that NONE are righteous.
Precisely because there are other verses that state there ARE righteous persons,,,,even at the time of Isaiah and even before.
Scripture must always be reconciled----and it's easy to do if we approach scripture simply and let it explain itself..as for instance Romans:310 is explained very well by Psalm 14:1-5

John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
The reformed/Calvinist believer likes to stop at NO ONE CAN COME TO ME.
Speak about context! They won't even finish the sentence.
Jesus is speaking to the unbelieving Jews, not us. For us raised with the NT it's easy to believe in Jesus. And perhaps that's the key to understand what Jesus meant. As we read the chapter further Jesus (with v44 in mind) even put the 12 and other disciples (followers) to the test, verses 53-58.

John 6:60 - When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?”

John 6:65 - And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.

Note that in v65 Christ repeats what He said in v44.

The result of the test shows it was not given to all those who walked with Jesus He was the Messiah.

------

Let's not forget Jesus was speaking to Jews who believed in God but not in Him.

John 6:44 - No one can come to me was a big issue for the Jews of His time, not for us.

Bottom line, no Calvinism.
Botton line, NO CALVINISM, is correct.
John 6:44 can be explained several ways...none would be in support of reformed theology.
One way would be yours...

One would be that the Father draws all men (Romans 1:18-20) but not all accept.

Another way would be to define the word GRANT....it does not mean to DECREE...to grant just means TO ALLOW...it still requires free will to choose.

Personally I like to dwell on the word DRAW since it is debunked immediately by John 12:32....
IF used as the reformed do....DRAW AS DRAGGING....then John 12:32 would mean that every person is saved since Jesus will DRAW all men to Himself.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."



DRAW must mean INVITE, or everyone would be saved.
 
With or without grace, though.

I have a "proof text" that man cannot seek God on his own.

"Apart from me you can do nothing." — Jesus
Jn 6:44 (KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

man
*Jn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jn 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Jn 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Jn 12:37-40 [37] But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: [38] That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? [39] Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, [40] He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Is 44:18-20 [18] They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand. [19] And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree? [20] He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Je 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Mt 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Ro 8:7-8 [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

except
*Jn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

*Mt 11:25-27 [25] At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. [26] Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. [27] All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

*Eph 2:4-10 [4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: [7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Jn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jn 3:3-7 [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Mt 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Php 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Tt 3:3-5 [3] For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. [4] But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, [5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

draw

*Jn 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

So 1:4 Draw me, we will run after thee: the king hath brought me into his chambers: we will be glad and rejoice in thee, we will remember thy love more than wine: the upright love thee.

Je 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Ho 11:4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

and I
Jn 6:39-40 [39] And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [40] And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

j.
 
With or without grace, though.

I have a "proof text" that man cannot seek God on his own.

"Apart from me you can do nothing." — Jesus
OK. I do believe that in that context Jesus was speaking about us doing things for the Kingdom.
This would be works/deeds for the Kingdom of God here on earth.
As when Jesus said to love our neighbor, feed the poor, etc.
For instance, as in ABIDING IN HIM, as He explains in John 15:1-5

However, yes, in a broader sense we can do nothing without God.
God always will make the first move.
Romans 1:18-20, or thereabouts, states that God has ALWAYS made Himself by known by man and
it's up to man to accept or reject him so that no man will be excused (from rejecting God).

You're talking about what some call prevenient grace and I agree fully.
It's the grace God gives to everyone so that Romans 1 can function properly.
If God does not reveal Himself...how could man possibly be aware of Him??

But this is NOT what reformed/calvinist theology teaches.
I'm addressing Calvinism.
 
Agreed as they face the hard realities of their beliefs head on and make no excuses or soften things so it sounds more palatable.

I forgot the posters name in the old days on CARM but there was a hyper who was very knowledgeable and new the LNC very well and would go at the average 5 point Calvinist and correct them on the doctrines of grace, sovereignty and predestination and reprobation. All he would get in return was personal attacks. But he was good at calling a spade a spade and facing his beliefs head on with his critics.
What is the I.NC. ??
 
I can help. But then you would accuse me of "writing books" and as you yourself admitted, you don't do word studies.

J.
No word study needed.
DRAW MEANS DRAW.
DRAG is in Acts 8:3

Care to continue with John 6:44?

I wrote regarding this in my post no. 134,,,toward the end.
 
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