Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[Johann]

Why don't YOU try some proof-texting and prove that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Already did-check it out.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe drawing in Jn 6:44;12:32 and Jer 31:3 is a metonym for the the New Birth, Regeneration, which is the fruit of Christs Death.

Yes BF
Go ahead and make up your own religion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Already did-check it out.

J.

Could you reply with the post number?
The post that proves we are unable to seek God.

 

[atpollard]

I see.
So now we've moved from
WE CAN SEEK

But

WE CANNOT FIND.

WE have not moved anywhere.
I am stuck on JOHN 6:44 which clearly states "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" and I am still waiting for YOU to discuss the actual WORDS and MESSAGE of JOHN 6:44 rather than jumping to "it cannot mean what I think it means because ..." and then YOU run to any and every other verse of scripture.

I just got bored of waiting for YOU to actually talk about JOHN 6:44, so I went ahead and answered a question that YOU kept asking (that happened to be answered by John 6:44 and the definition of the words).

So my position is that when Jesus said "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME", the words "NO ONE" really mean "No person at all" and the words "CAN COME" really mean "are able to come; have the ability to come" and the words "TO ME" really mean "to Jesus".

So when Jesus stated "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" what Jesus meant is "No person at all has the ability to come to Jesus".
I am waiting for you to explain why Jesus was talking out his 'arse' and really meant EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of what Jesus said.

 

[Johann]

Could you reply with the post number?
The post that proves we are unable to seek God.

#100
If you are a visual person, I will gladly oblige.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do believe you are incorrect, but let's find out, shall we? Especially re the bolded statement.-^^^

Romans 3:11 (cf. Psalm 14:2–3)
Greek: οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ συνίων, οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ ἐκζητῶν τὸν Θεόν
Translation: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks God.”

ἐκζητέω (ekzēteō) – present active participle, masculine singular nominative

This verb means “to seek out, to search for diligently.”

The construction οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ ἐκζητῶν literally: “there is not the one who is seeking” (i.e., no one is seeking God).

This is not a command, but a universal negation stated as a fact in the indicative mood.

Grammatically, it conveys an ongoing state—none are in the process of seeking.

Context: Paul quotes Psalm 14:2–3 to support the charge that “all are under sin” (Romans 3:9). The scope is argued by some to be universal, not merely the wicked subset of humanity.

2. John 6:44
Greek: Οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν
Translation: “No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.”

δύναται – present middle/passive indicative, 3rd person singular of δύναμαι ("to be able")

ἐλθεῖν – aorist active infinitive of ἔρχομαι ("to come")

ἑλκύσῃ – aorist active subjunctive of ἑλκύω ("to draw, drag, pull")

This is an explicit denial of human ability (οὐδεὶς δύναται) to come to Christ apart from divine action (ἐὰν μὴ...ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν)

δύναμαι + infinitive is the standard Greek construction for ability

This verse does not use ζητέω ("to seek"), but it does address approach to Christ, which is inherently connected to seeking salvation.

3. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Greek: Ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος οὐ δέχεται τὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ θεοῦ· μωρία γὰρ αὐτῷ ἐστίν, καὶ οὐ δύναται γνῶναι, ὅτι πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται.
Translation: “But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”

οὐ δέχεται – present middle indicative, 3rd person singular of δέχομαι ("to receive, accept")

οὐ δύναται γνῶναι – cannot understand

δύναται – present middle/passive indicative, 3rd person singular of δύναμαι ("to be able")

γνῶναι – aorist active infinitive of γινώσκω ("to know, understand")

This is another clear statement of inability, using δύναμαι again to indicate lack of capacity

The contrast is between the ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος (natural man) and the πνευματικὸς (spiritual man)


Romans 8:7–8
“Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

οὐδὲ γὰρ δύναται – "for it is not even able"

Another explicit inability clause, again using δύναμαι

Summary of Greek Verbs of Inability or Lack of Seeking:

Passage Key Greek Verb Form Meaning
Romans 3:11 ἐκζητέω Present active participle Seek out diligently
John 6:44 δύναται / ἑλκύσῃ Present ind. / Aorist subj. Is able / draws
1 Corinthians 2:14 δύναται γνῶναι Present ind. / Aorist inf. Is able to understand
Romans 8:7 οὐχ ὑποτάσσεται, οὐδὲ δύναται Present ind. Does not submit, is not able

So which part of the explicit "not even able" part do you not understand? Since it stands written and right in front of your eyes?

Take note of the Present Active participles.

Done. This has been dealt with. The onus is on YOU to prove these quotations otherwise and there are more, but this should suffice.

The Scriptures explicitly state: “οὐ δύναται” — is not able — yet you assert the opposite- that man “absolutely can.”

Right on topic. My apologies for veering off, I'm very tired and will make mistakes.

J.

Give a passage.
You write books instead.

Give a passage that states man is UNABLE to seek God.

Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

#100
If you are a visual person, I will gladly oblige.
J.

Already replied.
No. 106

 

[atpollard]

And in Job it says he was righteous and without sin.

Job 1:22 and Job 2:10

Do you actually believe that Job (the book) is stating that Job (the man) was sinless and had no need for God's Grace ... Job (man) earned salvation on his own personal merit [full-Pelagian style]?

Just looking for clarification of your intent.

 

[Johann]

Give a passage.
You write books instead.

Give a passage that states man is UNABLE to seek God.

Thanks.

I just did-providing three or four direct Scripture references, not secondary sources or books.

In plain English, the meaning of the text is clear when read without imposing our own biases or preconceived theological assumptions.

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Do you actually believe that Job (the book) is stating that Job (the man) was sinless and had no need for God's Grace ... Job (man) earned salvation on his own personal merit [full-Pelagian style]?

Just looking for clarification of your intent.

Excuse me apollard.
Since when does RIGHTEOUS mean SINLESS?

Righteous means RIGHT WITH GOD.

No one is sinless.

 

[GodsGrace]

I just did-providing three or four direct Scripture references, not secondary sources or books.

In plain English, the meaning of the text is clear when read without imposing our own biases or preconceived theological assumptions.

J.

Then post the actual SCRIPTURE without writing a book....
and we'll discuss that scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

WE have not moved anywhere.
I am stuck on JOHN 6:44 which clearly states "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME unless the Father who sent Me draws him;" and I am still waiting for YOU to discuss the actual WORDS and MESSAGE of JOHN 6:44 rather than jumping to "it cannot mean what I think it means because ..." and then YOU run to any and every other verse of scripture.

I just got bored of waiting for YOU to actually talk about JOHN 6:44, so I went ahead and answered a question that YOU kept asking (that happened to be answered by John 6:44 and the definition of the words).

So my position is that when Jesus said "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME", the words "NO ONE" really mean "No person at all" and the words "CAN COME" really mean "are able to come; have the ability to come" and the words "TO ME" really mean "to Jesus".

So when Jesus stated "NO ONE CAN COME TO ME" what Jesus meant is "No person at all has the ability to come to Jesus".
I am waiting for you to explain why Jesus was talking out his 'arse' and really meant EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of what Jesus said.

OK.

Let's go over the verse and see what we come up with.

Here is the verse in question:
John 6:44 NASB
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


Jesus says: NO ONE CAN COME TO ME.
Correct.

Does Jesus say anything else in that sentence?
Does the word
UNLESS appear?

 

[Johann]

Then post the actual SCRIPTURE without writing a book....
and we'll discuss that scripture.

I did, maybe I should highlight the Scriptures with red-debunking your statement with Scripture alone.

“There is none who understands, there is none who seeks God.”

“No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.”


“But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”


“Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

And there's more, using SCRIPTURE, so why are you unable to understand the written text?

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did, maybe I should highlight the Scriptures with red-debunking your statement with Scripture alone.

“There is none who understands, there is none who seeks God.”

“No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.”


“But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”


“Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

And there's more, using SCRIPTURE, so why are you unable to understand the written text?

J.

See post 112 with atpollard.
IF he comes back.
Can't sit here for much longer...pretty late.

If you care to respond...OK.
Please respond SPECIFICALLY to John 6:44

 

[Johann]

See post 112 with atpollard.
IF he comes back.
Can't sit here for much longer...pretty late.

If you care to respond...OK.
Please respond SPECIFICALLY to John 6:44

Why the restriction? You asked for Scripture, I gave you Scripture----?!

Deuteronomy 19:15 (NASB)
“A single witness shall not rise up against a person regarding any wrongdoing or any sin that he commits; on the testimony of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.”

Deuteronomy 17:6 (NASB)
“On the testimony of two witnesses or three witnesses, the one who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.”

Matthew 18:16 (NASB)
“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed.”

2 Corinthians 13:1 (NASB)
“This is the third time I am coming to you. Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Hebrews 10:28 (NASB)
“Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

I did, maybe I should highlight the Scriptures with red-debunking your statement with Scripture alone.

“There is none who understands, there is none who seeks God.”

I posted MANY verses that command us to seek God.
How would YOU reconcile this discrepancy?
No greek please...
no books...
outside sources.

“No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.”

Will be discussing separately.

“But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”

Of course the natural man cannot understand the things of God.
where does this state that man is unable to seek God?
Some seek but do not believe...atheists come to unbelief after trying to learn about God.
The above is making a statement...it is NOT stating HOW one comes to believe in God.

Some hear and then believe:

FAITH COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
Romans 10

Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Romans 10:17
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

And those that call on the name of the Lord...after hearing (still in Romans 10) will be saved.
Romans 10:12-13
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

“Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Correct. THE FLESH is not able to subject itself to ANY of the laws of God.
We must be born again first.
It is NOT addressing man seeking God...but how the unbeliever cannot please God.

And there's more, using SCRIPTURE, so why are you unable to understand the written text?

J.

Because Johann,,,you are picking out the words NOT EVEN ABLE but are not reading the context.
Context is everything - as you know.

You stated FOR IT [the flesh] IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO...
To do what?
SUBJECT ITSELF TO THE LAW OF GOD....

it is NOT speaking about the ability to SEEK GOD.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why the restriction? You asked for Scripture, I gave you Scripture----?!

Deuteronomy 19:15 (NASB)
“A single witness shall not rise up against a person regarding any wrongdoing or any sin that he commits; on the testimony of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.”

Deuteronomy 17:6 (NASB)
“On the testimony of two witnesses or three witnesses, the one who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.”

Matthew 18:16 (NASB)
“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed.”

2 Corinthians 13:1 (NASB)
“This is the third time I am coming to you. Every fact is to be confirmed by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Hebrews 10:28 (NASB)
“Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

J.

I don't understand what the above has to do with seeking God.
Could you PLEASE explain how the above is saying that we cannot seek God.

No restriction.
I'd like to address John 6:44 since that's the verse in question.
@atpollard is not returning and I must leave.

We were discussing the word DRAW and I'd like to stop being side-tracked and stick to the subject at hand.

 

[atpollard]

Excuse me apollard.
Since when does RIGHTEOUS mean SINLESS?

Righteous means RIGHT WITH GOD.

No one is sinless.

Ummm ...

And in Job it says he was righteous and without sin.

Job 1:22 and Job 2:10

"and without sin" usually means "sinless" to the rest of us.
[What it means to you I haven't a clue.]

 

[Johann]

I posted MANY verses that command us to seek God.
How would YOU reconcile this discrepancy?
No greek please...
no books...
outside sources.


Will be discussing separately.


Of course the natural man cannot understand the things of God.
where does this state that man is unable to seek God?
Some seek but do not believe...atheists come to unbelief after trying to learn about God.
The above is making a statement...it is NOT stating HOW one comes to believe in God.

Some hear and then believe:

FAITH COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.
Romans 10

Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Romans 10:17
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

And those that call on the name of the Lord...after hearing (still in Romans 10) will be saved.
Romans 10:12-13
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."






Correct. THE FLESH is not able to subject itself to ANY of the laws of God.
We must be born again first.
It is NOT addressing man seeking God...but how the unbeliever cannot please God.

Because Johann,,,you are picking out the words NOT EVEN ABLE but are not reading the context.
Context is everything - as you know.

You stated FOR IT [the flesh] IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO...
To do what?
SUBJECT ITSELF TO THE LAW OF GOD....

it is NOT speaking about the ability to SEEK GOD.

Thought the topic was UNABLE-I addressed it knowing context and now you want to go to "SEEK?"

Do you deny the text?

So want do you want to study? SEEK or UNABLE?

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ummm ...


"and without sin" usually means "sinless" to the rest of us.
[What it means to you I haven't a clue.]

Do you know what hyperbole is?
Do you think the OT does not agree with the NT?

If Job (the book) states that Job was without sin....
voila' another contradiction in scripture!!

Get yourself together atpollard.
Really.

And, I guess you don't care to discuss John 6:44.

Don't blame you.
Perhaps you've considered the context.