Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

Historically, there is no record of what anabaptists believed

I agree Anabaptists were terribly and unfairly persecuted by both Calvinists and Catholics, but that doesn't make them divine determinists.

There is records they believed in actual free will and unlimited atonement.

Why do you think the Calvinists hated them so much after all?!
 
"Free will is the ability to choose between two moral acts/decisions without any outside coercion."

Are the "world" and the "flesh" an inside or outside coercion?
  • [Mat 26:41 ESV] 41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
  • [Rom 7:5, 14, 18, 25 ESV] 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. ... 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. ... 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. ... 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
  • [Rom 8:3 ESV] 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
  • [1Co 3:1, 3 ESV] 1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. ... 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?
  • [2Co 1:17 ESV] 17 Was I vacillating when I wanted to do this? Do I make my plans according to the flesh, ready to say "Yes, yes" and "No, no" at the same time?
  • [Gal 5:16-17, 19 ESV] 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. ... 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
  • [Eph 2:3 ESV] 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
  • [1Pe 2:11 ESV] 11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.
    [1Jo 2:16 ESV] 16 For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life--is not from the Father but is from the world.
  • [Mat 13:22 ESV] 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
  • [Rom 12:2 ESV] 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
  • [1Co 1:20 ESV] 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
  • [1Co 2:12 ESV] 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
  • [1Co 3:19 ESV] 19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness,"
  • [2Co 4:4 ESV] 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
  • [Gal 4:3, 9 ESV] 3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. ... 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?
  • [Eph 2:2 ESV] 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
  • [2Ti 4:10 ESV] 10 For Demas, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica. Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
  • [Jas 1:27 ESV] 27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
  • [Jas 4:4 ESV] 4 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
  • [1Jo 2:15-16 ESV] 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world--the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life--is not from the Father but is from the world.
 
Why do you think the Calvinists hated them so much after all?!
I think STATE CHURCHES hated them because the Government used Paedobaptism to enforce church membership and church membership as a method of State Control for the Princes of the era. Believers that placed God above the STATE CONTROLLED CHURCH were dangerous to the Political authority.

However, I acknowledge that HUSS believed in synergistic salvation. I am unfamiliar with actual anabaptist records that predate the Hussites.

I also acknowledge that modern Baptists are "English Separatists" from the 1600's that developed independently from Calvin and the Reformation in Germany and France ... It really is a "Sola Scriptura" movement that grew from grass-roots Bible reading and sprang up with both a monergist and synergist branch from the beginning (both starting churches in London within a short period).
 
The BIBLICAL definition of Free will is simple.
Free will is the ability to choose between two moral acts/decisions without any outside coercion.



How free is our free will? Here, I will present the paradoxical pairs found throughout Scriptures.


Jn 8:33-41 [33] They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. [36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. [37] I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. [40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. [41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Mt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Ro 9:7-9 [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. [9] For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

nor of the will of the
Ge 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

Ge 25:28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.

Ge 27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

Ge 27:33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.

Ro 9:10-16 [10] And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; [11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) [12] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. [13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. [14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. [15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

nor of the will of man
*Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Ps 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


Ro 9:1-5 [1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. [3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Ro 10:1-3 [1] Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Is it not true that our "free will and the ego eimi" should be
denied and crucified?
I don't understand the point you are making in this thread, you always are clear, not now, what do I miss ?
Do you believe your free will should act independently on the promtings of the Holy Spirit? Define the ego in man for me @ProDeo.


Man’s “I am” – Created, Dependent, Yet Rebellious
When fallen man asserts "I am" in an ultimate sense—without reference to God—it becomes a claim to independent identity and autonomous self-rule, which is the essence of sin (Genesis 3:5: “you will be like God”).

Thus, in a theological sense, the “ego eimi” in man refers to:

The human self-consciousness and volition asserting existence or autonomy, especially when divorced from the Creator's will or dependence on Him.


Fallen man's “ἐγώ εἰμι” must be crucified, and reborn in union with Christ so that it no longer proclaims “I am independent,” but “I am Yours.”

What's so difficult to understand?

J.
 
What this has to do with the OP, Calvinism.
This issue is not peripheral-it is central to the entire Calvinist framework. So I am on topic.

At stake is the meaning of human identity and volition, especially as expressed in the simple but profound phrase: "I am" (ἐγώ εἰμι).

Calvinism asserts that human will, post-Fall, is so corrupted that man cannot will or respond to God unless first regenerated by monergistic grace. In this view, the human "I am" is effectively voided—man is spiritually dead in such a way that he is no longer capable of initiating, seeking, or choosing anything in response to God.

But biblically, the human "I am" (ἐγώ εἰμι) still functions—flawed, yes, but not annihilated. Scripture calls man to seek, to repent, to believe, and to obey—all of which require a real, responsive, moral will. The Gospel addresses people as responsible agents, not passive recipients.

So my question is this--

Is the human will still truly willful, or is it merely acted upon?

Is “I am” still a meaningful human statement after the Fall, or does Calvinism reduce it to “I cannot” unless God unilaterally intervenes?

The difference here is not philosophical—it is biblical and spiritual. It affects how we understand:

what it means to bear God's image (Genesis 1:26–27),

what it means to respond to God's Word,

and whether commands to seek, repent, believe, and obey are genuine or merely rhetorical.

This is why this question goes to the heart of the Calvinist system, and why it cannot be ignored in serious discussion.

You don't have to reply. If you don't understand it's really not my problem.

J.
 
Last edited:
Yes, but do consider.

If we have a sin nature we are not going to desire holiness innately, it's just not going to ever happen.

This is why man seeking after God is a beautiful miracle of grace, of inward redemption, that we should give God all the credit for.
OK
But when you make statements like this it sounds very Calvinist.
I THOUGHT you were reformed when I first joined this Forum.

I think we have to be careful how we speak because Calvinism has adopted a very soft way of speaking
that could appeal to more persons. They don't plainly state what Calvinism teaches. This is dishonest.

The sin nature does not desire holiness.
Correct.

But man is able to hear the word....to know about God....to know whether or not he wishes to serve God.
All the modern atheists: Dawkins, Harris, O'Connor....know about God but have refused Him.

We all receive enough of God's grace to be able to be aware of Him.

And it is this wonderful grace, that allows us to become children of God.
1 John 3:1
1 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are.
 
Not "difficult" just a "waste of time".


True to form ... It can be "debunked" [so you claim by fiat] ... but then you WON'T even try [You speak 'ex cathedra' as the Pope of BAM]
"GodsGrace has said it, thus it is so!" :ROFLMAO:
Ad hominems....that's all you could muster up.

And you are soooo unchristianly-like.

ANY of the 5 points of calvinism can be DEBUNKED because they cannot be true.

BUT
You're too fearful of having a real debate.

And your silly post to me from someone who takes the FIRST PART of a verse to prove that man cannot come to God.

Context. You should learn about it.

And, unlike you, I post scripture....
to which YOU cannot respond.
 
Last edited:
How free is our free will? Here, I will present the paradoxical pairs found throughout Scriptures.


Jn 8:33-41 [33] They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? [34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. [36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. [37] I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. [38] I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. [39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. [40] But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. [41] Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Mt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Ro 9:7-9 [7] Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. [8] That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. [9] For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

nor of the will of the
Ge 25:22 And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD.

Ge 25:28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.

Ge 27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

Ge 27:33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.

Ro 9:10-16 [10] And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; [11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) [12] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. [13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. [14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. [15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

nor of the will of man
*Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Ps 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.


Ro 9:1-5 [1] I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, [2] That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. [3] For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: [4] Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; [5] Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Ro 10:1-3 [1] Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. [2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. [3] For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

1Co 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Is it not true that our "free will and the ego eimi" should be
denied and crucified?

Do you believe your free will should act independently on the promtings of the Holy Spirit? Define the ego in man for me @ProDeo.


Man’s “I am” – Created, Dependent, Yet Rebellious
When fallen man asserts "I am" in an ultimate sense—without reference to God—it becomes a claim to independent identity and autonomous self-rule, which is the essence of sin (Genesis 3:5: “you will be like God”).

Thus, in a theological sense, the “ego eimi” in man refers to:

The human self-consciousness and volition asserting existence or autonomy, especially when divorced from the Creator's will or dependence on Him.


Fallen man's “ἐγώ εἰμι” must be crucified, and reborn in union with Christ so that it no longer proclaims “I am independent,” but “I am Yours.”

What's so difficult to understand?

J.
Part of the above is for me.
Since I don't know what point you're trying to make...
I cannot respond.

Perhaps you could start by defining YOUR idea of free will?
 
@atpollard

For those reading along....
this is my 3rd posting regarding the verse Calvinism exegetes incorrect.
Other posts where this is stated and to which you seem unable to reply to:
Post no. 25 and post no. 82 (and others on this very thread).

Explanation for John 6:44 ....a verse which DOES NOT support Calvinnism:

From a previous post....

**************************************************************************************

John 6:44 can be explained several ways...none would be in support of reformed theology.
One way would be yours...

One would be that the Father draws all men (Romans 1:18-20) but not all accept.

Another way would be to define the word GRANT....it does not mean to DECREE...to grant just means TO ALLOW...it still requires free will to choose.

Personally I like to dwell on the word DRAW since it is debunked immediately by John 12:32....
IF used as the reformed do....DRAW AS DRAGGING....then John 12:32 would mean that every person is saved since Jesus will DRAW all men to Himself.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."



DRAW must mean INVITE, or everyone would be saved.

*********************************************************************

Is everyone saved atpollard?
If not, then your understanding of John 6:44 is WRONG.
 
Historically, there is no record of what anabaptists believed since they were murdered as soon as it was discovered they challenged ROME on Infant Baptism. It is only about 1400 that we get any surviving writings at all from anabaptists. Paul wrote Romans and Ephesians and all the verses that Particular Baptists (founded with the mass printing of English Vernacular Bibles) read to adopt the beliefs that we hold (hundreds of years after Calvin and the attempt to reform the church of Rome that had been killing anabaptists for over a millennium.). For what it might be worth, the LUTHERANS and REFORMED Churches of France and Germany also murdered anabaptists (as did the Angicans). That is why modern BAPTISTS advocate for separation of Church and State and demanded that be in the U.S. Bill of Rights.
1400??

Anabaptists were not present in the year 1,400:
YOU state they were being killed for a millenium.
Some proof?

Here is some history on Anabaptists:

Anabaptism (from Neo-Latin anabaptista,<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism#cite_note-OED-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> from the Greek ἀναβαπτισμός: ἀνά 're-' and βαπτισμός 'baptism';<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism#cite_note-OED-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> German: Täufer, earlier also Wiedertäufer)<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism#cite_note-2"><span>[</span>a<span>]</span></a>

is a Christian movement which traces its origins to the Radical Reformation in the 16th century. Anabaptists believe that baptism is valid only when candidates freely confess their faith in Christ and request to be baptized. Commonly referred to as believer's baptism, it is opposed to baptism of infants, who are not able to make a conscious decision to be baptized.

The early Anabaptists formulated their beliefs in a confession of faith in 1527 called the Schleitheim Confession. Its author Michael Sattler was arrested and executed shortly afterward. Anabaptist groups varied widely in their specific beliefs, but the Schleitheim Confession represents foundational Anabaptist beliefs as well as any single document can.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism#cite_note-Bruening2017-3"><span>[</span>2<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism#cite_note-Hershberger2001-4"><span>[</span>3<span>]</span></a>

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism#History
 
DRAW must mean INVITE, or everyone would be saved.
The English word “invite” suggests a voluntary offer or summons, often implying the recipient can accept or decline. Lexically, ἑλκύω does not directly mean “invite.” Its metaphorical use in John 6:44 conveys a stronger, more effectual action—drawing or attracting with purpose—than a mere invitation. Greek verbs for “invite” include καλέω (kaleō, to call or invite, e.g., Matthew 22:3) or παρακαλέω (parakaleō, to summon or exhort, e.g., Luke 14:7). These verbs emphasize an invitation or request, whereas ἑλκύω implies an active, influential pull.

J.
 
The English word “invite” suggests a voluntary offer or summons, often implying the recipient can accept or decline. Lexically, ἑλκύω does not directly mean “invite.” Its metaphorical use in John 6:44 conveys a stronger, more effectual action—drawing or attracting with purpose—than a mere invitation.
So can a person decline the DRAWING in John 6:44?
If it IS an effectual action....it would make irresistible grace be a correct doctrine.
Do you believe that man cannot refuse God's invitaton to salvation?
You believe that if God "invites" us (draws us) to salvation then we WILL BECOME SAVED?

Greek verbs for “invite” include καλέω (kaleō, to call or invite, e.g., Matthew 22:3) or παρακαλέω (parakaleō, to summon or exhort, e.g., Luke 14:7). These verbs emphasize an invitation or request, whereas ἑλκύω implies an active, influential pull.

J.
I'd have to agree that an influential pull is at work when God invites us to become a follower of His.
The question is:
Does this influential pull CAUSE US TO BECOME SAVED?

I can influence you in many ways....
Maybe to take piano lessons....

Does this mean you WILL take piano lessons and you have no other choice??
 
So can a person decline the DRAWING in John 6:44?
If it IS an effectual action....it would make irresistible grace be a correct doctrine.
Do you believe that man cannot refuse God's invitaton to salvation?
You believe that if God "invites" us (draws us) to salvation then we WILL BECOME SAVED?


I'd have to agree that an influential pull is at work when God invites us to become a follower of His.
The question is:
Does this influential pull CAUSE US TO BECOME SAVED?

I can influence you in many ways....
Maybe to take piano lessons....

Does this mean you WILL take piano lessons and you have no other choice??
Bingo

As demonstrated many times on this forum from several posters God can be resisted so his grace is not irresistible as taught by the reformation.
 
I'd have to agree that an influential pull is at work when God invites us to become a follower of His.
The question is:
Does this influential pull CAUSE US TO BECOME SAVED?
Ever studied the account of Samson?

The influential pull of the Holy Spirit is the CAUSE of your salvation.
So can a person decline the DRAWING in John 6:44?
If it IS an effectual action....it would make irresistible grace be a correct doctrine.
Do you believe that man cannot refuse God's invitaton to salvation?
You believe that if God "invites" us (draws us) to salvation then we WILL BECOME SAVED?
Yes. I do believe we can refuse God's invitation.

Matthew 22:1–14
1 Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying,
2 “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.
3 And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come.
4 Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’
5 But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business,
6 and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them.
7 But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
8 Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy.
9 Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’
10 Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.
11 But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes,
12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless.
13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

J.
 
@atpollard

For those reading along....
this is my 3rd posting regarding the verse Calvinism exegetes incorrect.
Other posts where this is stated and to which you seem unable to reply to:
Post no. 25 and post no. 82 (and others on this very thread).

Explanation for John 6:44 ....a verse which DOES NOT support Calvinnism:

From a previous post....

**************************************************************************************

John 6:44 can be explained several ways...none would be in support of reformed theology.
One way would be yours...

One would be that the Father draws all men (Romans 1:18-20) but not all accept.

Another way would be to define the word GRANT....it does not mean to DECREE...to grant just means TO ALLOW...it still requires free will to choose.

Personally I like to dwell on the word DRAW since it is debunked immediately by John 12:32....
IF used as the reformed do....DRAW AS DRAGGING....then John 12:32 would mean that every person is saved since Jesus will DRAW all men to Himself.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."



DRAW must mean INVITE, or everyone would be saved.

*********************************************************************

Is everyone saved atpollard?
If not, then your understanding of John 6:44 is WRONG.
OK, let's offer polite conversation and see what happens.

If you will indulge me, I will take your points in reverse order (John 12:32 first) ...

PROMISE ...
  • "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." - John 12:32 [ESV]

EXECUTION ...
  • "For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet-- I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But you, O LORD, do not be far off! O you my help, come quickly to my aid! Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion! You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen! I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him. From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will perform before those who fear him. The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live forever! All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations." - Psalms 22:16-28 [ESV]

FULFILLMENT ...
  • And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." - Revelation 5:6-10 [ESV]
Since I THINK it was clear from just the headings but others have tended to disagree, permit me to elaborate on this matter that was previously asked and answered.

John 12:32 contains a promise from Jesus that he will [in the future] DRAW ALL PEOPLE to himself. Jesus qualifies this with a hint on WHEN by stating "when I am lifted up from the earth". You and I disagree on the meaning of two words ... "DRAW" and "ALL PEOPLE".
  • It is ironic that I believe that when Jesus said DRAW he will actually DRAW them while you believe they are something less than drawn and more like INVITED ... yet the translators did not write "when I am lifted up I will invite all people".
  • In contrast, your proof that DRAW cannot mean DRAW is that "all people" must mean "every human being without exception" and Jesus did not DRAW every human being without exception" (how very 'Calvinist' of an observation). I believe that "all people" simply means "Jews and Gentiles".
  • Rather than argue, I propose that "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting" ... by which I simply mean that Jesus prophetic announcement probably means EXACTLY what ultimately happens in its fulfillment!

"EXECUTION" was a double meaning. I was pointing towards Jesus actual EXECUTION and that the recorded events were the "execution" (aka. fulfillment) of what Jesus had prophesied in John 12:32. So what HAPPENED in the Psalm 22 is what Jesus meant in John 12:32.
  • the first underlined verses in Psalm 22, confirm that Jesus was "lifted up" as Jesus predicted in John 12:32. By this we can be certain that Psalm 22 is speaking of the same event as Jesus. Note how great an effort the Gospel writers went to in order to record the details of Psalm 22 being fulfilled. Who cares if men gambled over Jesus clothes considering everything that was happening on that terrible day ... it was an important detail to record in a Gospel because it fulfilled a prophesy of Psalm 22! God SAID it would happen EXACTLY like this, so the rest of Psalm 22 must also be true!
  • The second underlined part of Psalm 22 is the claim by GOD that the promise of Jesus in John 12:32 was fulfilled ... "DRAW ALL PEOPLE" ... was "ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God". Not all without exception, but "Jews and Gentiles".
  • Of course, at the time of the crucifixion, this was still a promise to be fulfilled over time, God did not instantly DRAW all at once. All of ACTS is the unfolding story of that DRAW being fulfilled.

"FULFILLMENT" was a shorthand exegesis. Revelation 5:6-10 speaks of a vision of when that prophesy of John 12:32 will have been truly fulfilled.
  • In heaven, they are WORSHIPING GOD (Christ) and singing a song to him. What is it that Christ has done ...
  • "for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God" ... that is nothing less than EXACTLY what Jesus promised to do in John 12:32.
  • "from every tribe and language and people and nation" and here we have "all people" defined by the results. Jesus said he would do it and the Saints worship Jesus in heaven proclaiming that Jesus did do it.
As stated ... the proof of what Jesus intended in John 12:32 is the final result that was accomplished in Revelation 5:9-10 as described by God in Psalm 22:27-28.

******

Moving on to John 6:44 and the word "DRAW".

Let's start with the offer already made ...
Define the word DRAW in English.
Then locate the exact GREEK word used (no fancy arguments from Greek here) ... just look up EVERY verse where that word [G1670] appears in scripture (there are 8 of them). Then we can talk about whether DRAW [G1670] means they will "necessarily come" or not.

If we are unwilling to look at even the basic meaning of the word and where and how it is used in scripture, then there is no real desire to talk about it.
 
Last edited:
OK, let's offer polite conversation and see what happens.

If you will indulge me, I will take your points in reverse order (John 12:32 first) ...


Since I THINK it was clear from just the headings but others have tended to disagree, permit me to elaborate on this matter that was previously asked and answered.

John 12:32 contains a promise from Jesus that he will [in the future] DRAW ALL PEOPLE to himself. Jesus qualifies this with a hint on WHEN by stating "when I am lifted up from the earth". You and I disagree on the meaning of two words ... "DRAW" and "ALL PEOPLE".
  • It is ironic that I believe that when Jesus said DRAW he will actually DRAW them while you believe they are something less than drawn and more like INVITED ... yet the translators did not write "when I am lifted up I will invite all people".
  • In contrast, your proof that DRAW cannot mean DRAW is that "all people" must mean "every human being without exception" and Jesus did not DRAW every human being without exception" (how very 'Calvinist' of an observation). I believe that "all people" simply means "Jews and Gentiles".
  • Rather than argue, I propose that "the proof of the pudding is in the tasting" ... by which I simply mean that Jesus prophetic announcement probably means EXACTLY what ultimately happens in its fulfillment!

"EXECUTION" was a double meaning. I was pointing towards Jesus actual EXECUTION and that the recorded events were the "execution" (aka. fulfillment) of what Jesus had prophesied in John 12:32. So what HAPPENED in the Psalm 22 is what Jesus meant in John 12:32.
  • the first underlined verses in Psalm 22, confirm that Jesus was "lifted up" as Jesus predicted in John 12:32. By this we can be certain that Psalm 22 is speaking of the same event as Jesus. Note how great an effort the Gospel writers went to in order to record the details of Psalm 22 being fulfilled. Who cares if men gambled over Jesus clothes considering everything that was happening on that terrible day ... it was an important detail to record in a Gospel because it fulfilled a prophesy of Psalm 22! God SAID it would happen EXACTLY like this, so the rest of Psalm 22 must also be true!
  • The second underlined part of Psalm 22 is the claim by GOD that the promise of Jesus in John 12:32 was fulfilled ... "DRAW ALL PEOPLE" ... was "ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God". Not all without exception, but "Jews and Gentiles".
  • Of course, at the time of the crucifixion, this was still a promise to be fulfilled over time, God did not instantly DRAW all at once. All of ACTS is the unfolding story of that DRAW being fulfilled.

"FULFILLMENT" was a shorthand exegesis. Revelation 5:6-10 speaks of a vision of when that prophesy of John 12:32 will have been truly fulfilled.
  • In heaven, they are WORSHIPING GOD (Christ) and singing a song to him. What is it that Christ has done ...
  • "for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God" ... that is nothing less than EXACTLY what Jesus promised to do in John 12:32.
  • "from every tribe and language and people and nation" and here we have "all people" defined by the results. Jesus said he would do it and the Saints worship Jesus in heaven proclaiming that Jesus did do it.
As stated ... the proof of what Jesus intended in John 12:32 is the final result that was accomplished in Revelation 5:9-10 as described by God in Psalm 22:27-28.

******

Moving on to John 6:44 and the word "DRAW".

Let's start with the offer already made ...


If we are unwilling to look at even the basic meaning of the word and where and how it is used in scripture, then there is no real desire to talk about it. You just want to send me on errands, tell me I am wrong and you are correct, and repeat that Calvinism is false (which is no skin off my nose, I am not a Calvinist, I am a Baptist that agrees with the Bible ... we are fanatic Sola Scriptura folk that don't even have a denomination because there were no denominations in Acts ... just LOCAL CHURCHES!).
You have to admit scripture is paradoxical.


Total Occurrences: 8
εἷλκον heîlkon (1) V-IAI-3P
and drew Act_21:30
εἵλκυσαν heílkysan (1) V-AAI-3P
and drew Act_16:19
εἵλκυσεν heílkysen (2) V-AAI-3S
drew Joh_18:10, Joh_21:11
ἕλκουσιν hélkousin (1) V-PAI-3P
draw Jam_2:6
ἑλκύσαι helkýsai (1) V-AAN
to draw Joh_21:6
ἑλκύσῃ helkýsçi (1) V-AAS-3S
draw Joh_6:44
ἑλκύσω helkýsô (1) V-FAI-1S
will draw Joh_12:32
English to Strong’s
draw G501, G502, G645, G1670, G4334, G5288, G5289
drew G307, G501, G645, G868, G1670, G2020, G4264, G4317, G4334, G4358, G4685, G4951

Invite-Kaleo

(D) In the sense of to invite, particularly to a banquet as the wedding feast (Mat_22:3, Mat_22:9; Jhn_2:2). Used in an absolute sense in Mat_22:8; Luk_7:39; Luk_14:8, Luk_14:17; 1Co_10:27. Metaphorically, to call or invite to anything, e.g., of Jesus, to call to repentance, exhort (Mat_9:13; implied in Mrk_2:17); of God (1Co_1:9; 2Th_2:14; 1Ti_6:12; 1Pe_2:9; 1Pe_5:10; Rev_19:9). To call into the kingdom of God means to the duties, privileges, and bliss of the Christian life here and hereafter (1Th_2:12; by implication Rom_9:24; 1Co_7:15, 17ff; Gal_5:8, Gal_5:13; 2Ti_1:9; Heb_9:15; 1Pe_2:21).
(E) In the sense of to call to any station, i.e., to appoint, choose (Gal_1:15 [cf. Sept.: Isa_49:1; Isa_51:2]; Heb_5:4).
Word Studies.

And most of your words are blurred, probably for a reason?

Christ died for sinners-as it stands written.

Rom 5:6 ¶ For while [*Here “while ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“were”) which is understood as temporal] we were still helpless, yet at the proper time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For only rarely will someone die on behalf of a righteous person (for on behalf of a good person possibly someone might even dare to die),
Rom 5:8 but God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while [*Here “while ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“were”) which is understood as temporal] we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Therefore, by much more, because we [*Here “because ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“have been declared righteous”) which is understood as causal] have been declared righteous now by his blood, we will be saved through him from the wrath.
Rom 5:10 For if, while we [*Here “while ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“were”) which is understood as temporal] were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, by much more, having been reconciled, we will be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this , but also we are boasting in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

J.
 
Back
Top Bottom