Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

How can this be correct when I posted a page full of verses COMMANDING man to seek God?
Could man sin by disobeying a command of God?

  • "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." - John 3:19-20 [ESV]
  • "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." - Romans 1:18-21 [ESV]
  • What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written:
    • "None is righteous, no, not one;
    • no one understands; no one seeks for God.
    • All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    • no one does good, not even one."
    • "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive."
    • "The venom of asps is under their lips."
    • "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
    • "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    • in their paths are ruin and misery,
    • and the way of peace they have not known."
    • "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
    • - Romans 3:9-18 [ESV]
 
Define the word DRAW in English.
Then locate the exact GREEK word used (no fancy arguments from Greek here) ... just look up EVERY verse where that word [G1670] appears in scripture (there are 8 of them). Then we can talk about whether DRAW [G1670] means they will "necessarily come" or not.
No need for any definition atpollard.
No need to use Strong's.

Before you reply to @Kampioen 's correct post no. 76...
why not reply to my post to you where I explain, again, why John 6:44 CANNOT mean draw,,,the way you and the reformed think it means?
(post no. 74)


Here it is again:

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me
draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
You believe DRAW means TO DRAG (drag is found in Acts 8:3 BTW)

IF you're right,,,then all mankind is saved.
Let's see why:

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."



Looks like Jesus will drag all mankind to Himself.....
IF you were correct in your understanding of the word DRAW.

No English definition required
No Greek Strong's word G1670 required.

BTW,,,,trying to know Greek by using Strong's
is like trying to learn a language by using the dictionary.
Doesn't work very well.
Especially when separated by 2 thousand years.
And it was a different Greek.
 
No need for any definition atpollard.
No need to use Strong's.

Before you reply to @Kampioen 's correct post no. 76...
why not reply to my post to you where I explain, again, why John 6:44 CANNOT mean draw,,,the way you and the reformed think it means?
(post no. 74)


Here it is again:

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me
draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
You believe DRAW means TO DRAG (drag is found in Acts 8:3 BTW)

IF you're right,,,then all mankind is saved.
Let's see why:

John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."



Looks like Jesus will drag all mankind to Himself.....
IF you were correct in your understanding of the word DRAW.

No English definition required
No Greek Strong's word G1670 required.

BTW,,,,trying to know Greek by using Strong's
is like trying to learn a language by using the dictionary.
Doesn't work very well.
Especially when separated by 2 thousand years.
And it was a different Greek.
Yes John 12:32 becomes a problem if they want to say draw means drag and is irresistible. That would result in universalism.
 
Could man sin by disobeying a command of God?

  • "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed." - John 3:19-20 [ESV]
  • "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." - Romans 1:18-21 [ESV]
    • "None is righteous, no, not one;
    • no one understands; no one seeks for God.
    • All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
    • no one does good, not even one."
    • "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive."
    • "The venom of asps is under their lips."
    • "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
    • "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    • in their paths are ruin and misery,
    • and the way of peace they have not known."
    • "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
    • - Romans 3:9-18 [ESV]
Looks like you're changing the subject.

Why are you reposting the very verses I posted.

I think that it's up to YOU to now explain to me in your own words...like I did,
why you think YOU have the correct understanding of Romans 3:

Happy to move on to a different verse the moment we have that one figured out.

There were righteous men in the OT....I do believe I pointed that out.
 
Looks like you're changing the subject.

Why are you reposting the very verses I posted.

I think that it's up to YOU to now explain to me in your own words...like I did,
why you think YOU have the correct understanding of Romans 3:

Happy to move on to a different verse the moment we have that one figured out.

There were righteous men in the OT....I do believe I pointed that out.
And in Job it says he was righteous and without sin.

Job 1:22 and Job 2:10
 
Done it many times.
See post 74...the bottom half.

What Jesus really means does not require your bullet points.
It only requires reading scripture with no preconceived ideas.
Here is your "exegesis" on John 6:44

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


NO.
It requires a Calvinist lens.
There is NO VERSE in scripture that supports Calvinism.
Calvinism is NOT biblical and cannot be supported by scripture.

Why is it difficult?
I gave you the simple explanation above.
No scholar needed.
Scripture explains itself.
Praise God.

I've been doing that all along.
And have done it again here with your 3 verses.
I have no problem exegeting ANY verse you may believe supports calvinsim.

Please post a few verses that show that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD when scripture is full of verses that command us to do it.
I've done this a couple of times now just today....
do you even read my posts??

Already replied to.

We are spiritually dead. Not physically dead.
Post some verses that plainly state that we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

JESUS stated in Matthew 6:33 TO SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Jesus does not agree with you that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Read Romans 6:16...we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we will obey.
Then reconcile the two.
THIS is exegesis...

So?
Of course this is true.
Where does it state we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD?

Apparently, you trust your own conclusions more than scripture.
Please reconcile all the verses I gave you declaring we are to seek God with what you just posted above.

Again...I suppose scripture is not good enough for you.

Done.
You refuse plain scripture.

Please provide scripture that states that a person cannot seek God unless there is divine intervention.

Which would make Calvinism correct.

Interesting.
Those ALREADY SAVED are told to seek?

No further comment necessary on my side.

Again,,,,JESUS said seek and you will find.
Did YOU read that He was speaking to already saved persons?
Please provide the proof as you demand of me.

It's not a weak critique because YOU keep referring to John 6:44 which I've explained several times now.
(not in this post).

Done.

But YOU have not provided ANY verse that shows that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

I've provided MANY verses stating/commanding man to seek God.

Now YOU post as many verses stating man cannot...
or at least a few.
In what universe is that an EXEGESIS of John 6:44?
"Taint so" is not exegesis.
Here is the definition of "exegesis":

exegesis (noun):
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: exposition, explanation; especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
Cambridge Dictionary: an explanation of a text, especially from the Bible, after its careful study

You seem to have omitted both the "careful study of" and the "exposition/explanation of" John 6:44.

However, if you HAD studied John 6:44 you could have answered your own question:
  • Q. Where does it state we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD?
  • A. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me" [note, "Me" is "Jesus" and "Jesus" is "GOD"].
  • Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
    • "can" (verb): be physically or mentally able to
    • "unable" (adjetive): not able
    • "able" (adjective): having sufficient power, skill, or resources to do something; having the freedom or opportunity to do something; having a quality or nature that makes something possible
  • "no one can" = no one is able to" = everyone is not able to = everyone is unable to
If one wants to get pedantic, it is possible that everyone can "SEEK" but no one can "FIND", but that contradicts other scripture, so John 6:44 must indicate that the inability to "come" indicates and inability to "seek" [or an unwillingness to "seek"].
 
Before you reply to @Kampioen 's correct post no. 76...
why not reply to my post to you where I explain, again, why John 6:44 CANNOT mean draw,,,the way you and the reformed think it means?
(post no. 74)
Frankly, I generally place you on ignore to avoid wasting time since you do not engage in dialog but merely power bomb with blocks of unrelated text and attacks that amount to either "scripture pong", "demands for exegesis" (that you will ignore), or a "taint so". I seldom SEE your posts unless someone responds to you and their response makes me curious enough to view the ignored posts.

Draw means what it means in ENGLISH and how it is used in every one of the 8 places the exact word is used in the Bible. Your commentary to the contrary is NONSENSE.
 
Frankly, I generally place you on ignore to avoid wasting time since you do not engage in dialog but merely power bomb with blocks of unrelated text and attacks that amount to either "scripture pong", "demands for exegesis" (that you will ignore), or a "taint so". I seldom SEE your posts unless someone responds to you and their response makes me curious enough to view the ignored posts.

Draw means what it means in ENGLISH and how it is used in every one of the 8 places the exact word is used in the Bible. Your commentary to the contrary is NONSENSE.
Just like someone else I know.
 
PROMISE ...
  • "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." - John 12:32 [ESV]

EXECUTION ...
  • "For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet-- I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But you, O LORD, do not be far off! O you my help, come quickly to my aid! Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion! You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen! I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him. From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will perform before those who fear him. The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live forever! All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations." - Psalms 22:16-28 [ESV]

FULFILLMENT ...
  • And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." - Revelation 5:6-10 [ESV]
Yes John 12:32 becomes a problem if they want to say draw means drag and is irresistible. That would result in universalism.
... No problem. In John 6:44 the FATHER draws (irresistible drag) "as many as were ordained" to the SON and in John 12:32 the SON draws (irresistible drag) "a multitude that no man could count" from "every tribe and language and people and nation" to the FATHER. Almost as if the FATHER and SON were ONE GOD ... crazy idea, right?
 
Here is your "exegesis" on John 6:44


In what universe is that an EXEGESIS of John 6:44?
"Taint so" is not exegesis.
Here is the definition of "exegesis":

exegesis (noun):
Merriam-Webster Dictionary: exposition, explanation; especially : an explanation or critical interpretation of a text
Cambridge Dictionary: an explanation of a text, especially from the Bible, after its careful study
Thanks for the explanation...it's much appreciated.

I think I explained myself very well and I see no reply on your part...
but let's move on.
You seem to have omitted both the "careful study of" and the "exposition/explanation of" John 6:44.

However, if you HAD studied John 6:44 you could have answered your own question:
  • Q. Where does it state we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD?
  • A. John 6:44 "No one can come to Me" [note, "Me" is "Jesus" and "Jesus" is "GOD"].
  • Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
    • "can" (verb): be physically or mentally able to
    • "unable" (adjetive): not able
    • "able" (adjective): having sufficient power, skill, or resources to do something; having the freedom or opportunity to do something; having a quality or nature that makes something possible
  • "no one can" = no one is able to" = everyone is not able to = everyone is unable to
If one wants to get pedantic, it is possible that everyone can "SEEK" but no one can "FIND", but that contradicts other scripture, so John 6:44 must indicate that the inability to "come" indicates and inability to "seek" [or an unwillingness to "seek"].
I see.
So now we've moved from
WE CAN SEEK

But

WE CANNOT FIND.

So God, in all His wisdom, is telling us to do some benign chore...
He tells us to seek when He knows fully well that we cannot find.

Where are the verses that state this?
How do you come to this conclusion?
Does God not tell us what He wishes us to do?

You can define each and every word in the bible apollard...makes no difference.
It's the TEACHING that matters...it's the CONCEPTS that matter.

They are not found in words.
They are found in reading the bible as a COMPLETE THOUGHT.

Verses stating what you believe will be helpful.

John 6:44 is NOT a calvinist support verse and I've explained why.
You reply with the definition of words.

How about the next part:
UNLESS THE FATHER DRAW HIM....

Now read John 12:32
ARE ALL MEN SAVED??
 
Romans 3:10-11
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
Disingenuous-since you want Scripture only. let's do this.

Verse 4
DO ALL THE WORKERS OF WICKEDNESS NOT KNOW....


It is speaking of workers in wickedness...NOT EVERYONE.

No One Is Righteous
Rom 3:9 The Entire World Guilty of Sin--
¶ What then? Do we have an advantage? Not at all. For we have already charged both Jews and Greeks are all under sin,
Rom 3:10 just as it is written,
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside together; they have become worthless;
There is no one who practices kindness;
there is not even one. [Verses 10–12 are a quotation from Ps 14:1–3]
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an opened grave;
they deceive with their tongues;
the venom of asps is under their lips, [A quotation from Ps 5:9 and Ps 140:3]
Rom 3:14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. [A quotation from Ps 10:7]
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 destruction and distress are in their paths,
Rom 3:17 and they have not known the way of peace. [Verses 15–17 are a quotation from Isa 59:7–8]
Rom 3:18 The fear of God is not before their eyes.” [A quotation from Ps 36:1]

Rom 3:19 ¶ Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those under the law, in order that every mouth may be closed and the whole world may become accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For by the works of the law no person will be declared righteous [Literally “all flesh will not be declared righteous”] before him, for through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 Righteousness through Faith Revealed
¶ But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets—
Rom 3:22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ [Or “through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”] to all who believe. For there is no distinction,
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat [Or “as the place of propitiation”] through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,
Rom 3:26 in the forbearance of God, for the demonstration of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just and the one who justifies the person by faith [Or “by Jesus’ faithfulness”] in Jesus.

Rom 3:27 ¶ Therefore, where is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law [Or “a principle”] of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, also of the Gentiles,
Rom 3:30 since God is one, who will justify those who are circumcised [Literally “circumcision”] by faith and those who are uncircumcised [Literally “uncircumcision”] through faith.
Rom 3:31 Therefore, do we nullify the law through faith? May it never be! But we uphold the law.

Romans 3 comes from
Psalm 14:1-3

1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.


It is referring to THE FOOL who believes THERE IS NO GOD.
These people are corrupt...THESE PEOPLE...
They have committed abominable deeds....
Romans 3 concluded ALL, not some--Rom 3:9 The Entire World Guilty of Sin
This does NOT refer to EVERYONE,,,but to those that do not believe in God and do abominable deeds.

Verse 4
DO ALL THE WORKERS OF WICKEDNESS NOT KNOW....


It is speaking of workers in wickedness...NOT EVERYONE.

Verse 5
They are in great dread, for God is with the righteous generation...
Romans 3 concluded ALL, not some--
As Paul states:
Romans 10:17
17faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God...


God made us alive again because we presented ourselves TO HIM for salvation.
Paul states:


The Message of Salvation to All
Rom 10:5 ¶ For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this [Some manuscripts explicitly state “these things ”] will live by it.” [A quotation from Lev 18:5] [Some manuscripts have “them”]
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, [A quotation from Deut 9:4] ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” [A quotation from Deut 30:12] (that is, to bring Christ down),
Rom 10:7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” [A quotation from Deut 30:13] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” [A quotation from Deut 30:14] (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim),
Rom 10:9 that [Or “because”] if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” [A quotation from Isa 28:16]
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” [A quotation from Joel 2:32]

Rom 10:14 ¶ How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them ?
Rom 10:15 And how will they preach, unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How timely are the feet of those who bring good news of good things.” [A quotation from Isa 52:7; Nah 1:15]
Rom 10:16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” [A quotation from Isa 53:1]
Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

Rom 10:18 ¶ But I say, they have not heard, have they? [*The negative construction in Greek anticipates a negative answer here] On the contrary,
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.” [A quotation from Ps 19:4]

Rom 10:19 ¶ But I say, Israel did not know, did they? [*The negative construction in Greek anticipates a negative answer here] First, Moses says,
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation;
by a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger .” [A quotation from Deut 32:21]

Rom 10:20 ¶ And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I became known to those who did not ask for me.” [A quotation from Isa 65:1]

Rom 10:21 ¶ But about Israel he says,
“The whole day long I held out my hands
to a disobedient and resistant people.” [A quotation from Isa 65:2]

These verses—especially Romans 6:13, 12:1, and 2 Timothy 2:15—clearly support the notion that believers are called to actively and voluntarily present themselves to God in obedience, holiness, and service. While this language is mostly directed at those already redeemed, it assumes the presence of human volition and responsibility in the process.

They are in great dread, for God is with the righteous generation...

Apparently there is a righteous generation....not ALL are unrighteous.

Also,,,,
Was Abraham not righteous?
Was Noah not righteous?
Jonah?

Psalms was referring to a SPECIFIC situation and Calvinism takes advantage of this one verse as if it means that man is unable to seek God.
MAN IS COMMANDED to seek God, and I've shown that with many verses.
You have sidestepped Romans 3 and now you are in Psalms?
Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

We present OURSELVES, through our own free will, to the one we will obey...God or satan.

It is God that makes us alive....
when we choose to be made alive.
Salvation is wholly from God or did you choose to become regenerated?

Ephesians 2:8–9 (NASB 2020)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
→ This passage is the most explicit: salvation is a gift of God's grace, not from ourselves and not from works. Even the ability to have saving faith is described as part of God's gracious provision.

2. Titus 3:5 (NASB 2020)

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
→ This verse highlights that God alone saves us—not because of anything righteous we have done, but solely because of His mercy, and by the regenerating work of the Spirit.

3. Jonah 2:9 (NASB 2020)

"Salvation belongs to the LORD."
→ Though this is an Old Testament statement, it profoundly affirms the theological truth that salvation originates entirely from God—He is its source, author, and executor.

4. John 1:12–13 (NASB 2020)

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
→ This verse explicitly denies that the will of man is the origin of new birth—rather, it says believers are born of God.

5. 2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB 2020)

"He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."
→ Here again, salvation is rooted in God’s eternal purpose and grace, not in human action or decision.

You agree?

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot * understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.


So? A non-believer cannot understand concepts in the bible.
Only the Holy Spirit can help a believer to understand.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to help us.
Yes, that's what stands written-see how you are twisting from "the natural man" to "believer?"

Done.

But YOU have not provided ANY verse that shows that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

I've provided MANY verses stating/commanding man to seek God.

Now YOU post as many verses stating man cannot...
or at least a few.
I have, but you ignore it-since Scripture confirm the absolute negation of the will of the natural man, why don't you acknowledge this?

J.
 
Frankly, I generally place you on ignore to avoid wasting time since you do not engage in dialog but merely power bomb with blocks of unrelated text and attacks that amount to either "scripture pong", "demands for exegesis" (that you will ignore), or a "taint so". I seldom SEE your posts unless someone responds to you and their response makes me curious enough to view the ignored posts.

Draw means what it means in ENGLISH and how it is used in every one of the 8 places the exact word is used in the Bible. Your commentary to the contrary is NONSENSE.
Very Christianly of you.
However, your constant insults just show how you are unable to engage with me.

Use scripture.
Avoid the personal insults.

And I'm not here to "dialogue".
I'm here to discuss scripture and how to apply it to our lives.
 
Frankly, I generally place you on ignore to avoid wasting time since you do not engage in dialog but merely power bomb with blocks of unrelated text and attacks that amount to either "scripture pong", "demands for exegesis" (that you will ignore), or a "taint so". I seldom SEE your posts unless someone responds to you and their response makes me curious enough to view the ignored posts.

Draw means what it means in ENGLISH and how it is used in every one of the 8 places the exact word is used in the Bible. Your commentary to the contrary is NONSENSE.
What I would call "proof texting"-here a little, there a little.

J.
 
Disingenuous-since you want Scripture only. let's do this.

Scripture is all that counts.
Our opinions are of no value.
No One Is Righteous
Rom 3:9 The Entire World Guilty of Sin--
¶ What then? Do we have an advantage? Not at all. For we have already charged both Jews and Greeks are all under sin,
But THIS is not what is under discussion.
We all know everyone has sinned.

The discussion is:
IS MAN ABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Romans 3:10 was mentioned..it relates to Psalm 14...
to which I replied.


Rom 3:10 just as it is written,
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside together; they have become worthless;
There is no one who practices kindness;
there is not even one. [Verses 10–12 are a quotation from Ps 14:1–3]
Thanks for the info Johann.
I DO believe I referred you to Psalm 14 and also explained why NOT EVERYONE IS UNRIGHTEOUS.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an opened grave;
they deceive with their tongues;
the venom of asps is under their lips, [A quotation from Ps 5:9 and Ps 140:3]
Rom 3:14 whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. [A quotation from Ps 10:7]
Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 destruction and distress are in their paths,
Rom 3:17 and they have not known the way of peace. [Verses 15–17 are a quotation from Isa 59:7–8]
Rom 3:18 The fear of God is not before their eyes.” [A quotation from Ps 36:1]
You do realize that all these verses are speaking of UNBELIEVERS and the fear of God is not before their eyes.
Romans 3:18 stated by you just above.
Rom 3:19 ¶ Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those under the law, in order that every mouth may be closed and the whole world may become accountable to God.
Rom 3:20 For by the works of the law no person will be declared righteous [Literally “all flesh will not be declared righteous”] before him, for through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Now we've moved on to the WORKS OF THE LAW.
Interesting.
A third topic.
Also NOT being discussed.
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
Rom 3:21 Righteousness through Faith Revealed
¶ But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets—
Rom 3:22 that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ [Or “through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ”] to all who believe. For there is no distinction,
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat [Or “as the place of propitiation”] through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,
Rom 3:26 in the forbearance of God, for the demonstration of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just and the one who justifies the person by faith [Or “by Jesus’ faithfulness”] in Jesus.
Still nothing.
Rom 3:27 ¶ Therefore, where is boasting? It has been excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law [Or “a principle”] of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Is he not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, also of the Gentiles,
Rom 3:30 since God is one, who will justify those who are circumcised [Literally “circumcision”] by faith and those who are uncircumcised [Literally “uncircumcision”] through faith.
Rom 3:31 Therefore, do we nullify the law through faith? May it never be! But we uphold the law.
Still nothing.
The Law was not being discussed.
Romans 3 concluded ALL, not some--Rom 3:9 The Entire World Guilty of Sin
Sure. The entire world is guilty of sin. Agreed.
Unfortunately, THIS was not the topic.
Romans 3 concluded ALL, not some--



The Message of Salvation to All
Rom 10:5 ¶ For Moses writes about the righteousness that is from the law: “The person who does this [Some manuscripts explicitly state “these things ”] will live by it.” [A quotation from Lev 18:5] [Some manuscripts have “them”]
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness from faith speaks like this: “Do not say in your heart, [A quotation from Deut 9:4] ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” [A quotation from Deut 30:12] (that is, to bring Christ down),
Rom 10:7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?” [A quotation from Deut 30:13] (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” [A quotation from Deut 30:14] (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim),
Rom 10:9 that [Or “because”] if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” [A quotation from Isa 28:16]
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” [A quotation from Joel 2:32]

Rom 10:14 ¶ How then will they call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how will they believe in him about whom they have not heard? And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them ?
Rom 10:15 And how will they preach, unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “How timely are the feet of those who bring good news of good things.” [A quotation from Isa 52:7; Nah 1:15]
Rom 10:16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” [A quotation from Isa 53:1]
Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

Rom 10:18 ¶ But I say, they have not heard, have they? [*The negative construction in Greek anticipates a negative answer here] On the contrary,
“Their voice has gone out to all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the inhabited world.” [A quotation from Ps 19:4]

Rom 10:19 ¶ But I say, Israel did not know, did they? [*The negative construction in Greek anticipates a negative answer here] First, Moses says,
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation;
by a senseless nation I will provoke you to anger .” [A quotation from Deut 32:21]

Rom 10:20 ¶ And Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I became known to those who did not ask for me.” [A quotation from Isa 65:1]

Rom 10:21 ¶ But about Israel he says,
“The whole day long I held out my hands
to a disobedient and resistant people.” [A quotation from Isa 65:2]

These verses—especially Romans 6:13, 12:1, and 2 Timothy 2:15—clearly support the notion that believers are called to actively and voluntarily present themselves to God in obedience, holiness, and service. While this language is mostly directed at those already redeemed, it assumes the presence of human volition and responsibility in the process.


You have sidestepped Romans 3 and now you are in Psalms?

Salvation is wholly from God or did you choose to become regenerated?
So you ARE a calvinist?
Very confusing to be sure.

You've posted the gospel.
Very nice.
But it does NOT address the topic that is at hand.
Ephesians 2:8–9 (NASB 2020)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
→ This passage is the most explicit: salvation is a gift of God's grace, not from ourselves and not from works. Even the ability to have saving faith is described as part of God's gracious provision.

2. Titus 3:5 (NASB 2020)

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
→ This verse highlights that God alone saves us—not because of anything righteous we have done, but solely because of His mercy, and by the regenerating work of the Spirit.

3. Jonah 2:9 (NASB 2020)

"Salvation belongs to the LORD."
→ Though this is an Old Testament statement, it profoundly affirms the theological truth that salvation originates entirely from God—He is its source, author, and executor.

4. John 1:12–13 (NASB 2020)

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
→ This verse explicitly denies that the will of man is the origin of new birth—rather, it says believers are born of God.

5. 2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB 2020)

"He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity."
→ Here again, salvation is rooted in God’s eternal purpose and grace, not in human action or decision.

You agree?


Yes, that's what stands written-see how you are twisting from "the natural man" to "believer?"


I have, but you ignore it-since Scripture confirm the absolute negation of the will of the natural man, why don't you acknowledge this?

J.
You haven't addressed the topic.
Perhaps because you are unable to.

The topic was:
IS MAN ABLE TO SEEK GOD.

You stated NO.

You have to show how man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

This cannot be done.
Why?
Because God commands man to seek Him.
See Romans 1:18-20

So,,,you will NOT find any scripture that states man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
 
PROMISE ...
  • "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." - John 12:32 [ESV]

EXECUTION ...
  • "For dogs encompass me; a company of evildoers encircles me; they have pierced my hands and feet-- I can count all my bones-- they stare and gloat over me; they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But you, O LORD, do not be far off! O you my help, come quickly to my aid! Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog! Save me from the mouth of the lion! You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen! I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will praise you: You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel! For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted, and he has not hidden his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him. From you comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will perform before those who fear him. The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live forever! All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations." - Psalms 22:16-28 [ESV]

FULFILLMENT ...
  • And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." - Revelation 5:6-10 [ESV]

... No problem. In John 6:44 the FATHER draws (irresistible drag) "as many as were ordained" to the SON and in John 12:32 the SON draws (irresistible drag) "a multitude that no man could count" from "every tribe and language and people and nation" to the FATHER. Almost as if the FATHER and SON were ONE GOD ... crazy idea, right?
I believe drawing in Jn 6:44;12:32 and Jer 31:3 is a metonym for the the New Birth, Regeneration, which is the fruit of Christs Death.
 
Scripture is all that counts.
Our opinions are of no value.

But THIS is not what is under discussion.
We all know everyone has sinned.

The discussion is:
IS MAN ABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Romans 3:10 was mentioned..it relates to Psalm 14...
to which I replied.



Thanks for the info Johann.
I DO believe I referred you to Psalm 14 and also explained why NOT EVERYONE IS UNRIGHTEOUS.

You do realize that all these verses are speaking of UNBELIEVERS and the fear of God is not before their eyes.
Romans 3:18 stated by you just above.

Now we've moved on to the WORKS OF THE LAW.
Interesting.
A third topic.
Also NOT being discussed.

Still nothing.

Still nothing.
The Law was not being discussed.

Sure. The entire world is guilty of sin. Agreed.
Unfortunately, THIS was not the topic.

So you ARE a calvinist?
Very confusing to be sure.

You've posted the gospel.
Very nice.
But it does NOT address the topic that is at hand.

You haven't addressed the topic.
Perhaps because you are unable to.

The topic was:
IS MAN ABLE TO SEEK GOD.

You stated NO.

You have to show how man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

This cannot be done.
Why?
Because God commands man to seek Him.
See Romans 1:18-20

So,,,you will NOT find any scripture that states man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
I do believe you are incorrect, but let's find out, shall we? Especially re the bolded statement.-^^^

Romans 3:11 (cf. Psalm 14:2–3)
Greek: οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ συνίων, οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ ἐκζητῶν τὸν Θεόν
Translation: “There is none who understands, there is none who seeks God.”

ἐκζητέω (ekzēteō) – present active participle, masculine singular nominative

This verb means “to seek out, to search for diligently.”

The construction οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ ἐκζητῶν literally: “there is not the one who is seeking” (i.e., no one is seeking God).

This is not a command, but a universal negation stated as a fact in the indicative mood.

Grammatically, it conveys an ongoing state—none are in the process of seeking.


Context: Paul quotes Psalm 14:2–3 to support the charge that “all are under sin” (Romans 3:9). The scope is argued by some to be universal, not merely the wicked subset of humanity.

2. John 6:44
Greek: Οὐδεὶς δύναται ἐλθεῖν πρός με ἐὰν μὴ ὁ πατὴρ ὁ πέμψας με ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν
Translation: “No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him.”

δύναται – present middle/passive indicative, 3rd person singular of δύναμαι ("to be able")

ἐλθεῖν – aorist active infinitive of ἔρχομαι ("to come")

ἑλκύσῃ – aorist active subjunctive of ἑλκύω ("to draw, drag, pull")

This is an explicit denial of human ability (οὐδεὶς δύναται) to come to Christ apart from divine action (ἐὰν μὴ...ἑλκύσῃ αὐτόν)

δύναμαι + infinitive is the standard Greek construction for ability

This verse does not use ζητέω ("to seek"), but it does address approach to Christ, which is inherently connected to seeking salvation.

3. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Greek: Ψυχικὸς δὲ ἄνθρωπος οὐ δέχεται τὰ τοῦ πνεύματος τοῦ θεοῦ· μωρία γὰρ αὐτῷ ἐστίν, καὶ οὐ δύναται γνῶναι, ὅτι πνευματικῶς ἀνακρίνεται.
Translation: “But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.”

οὐ δέχεται – present middle indicative, 3rd person singular of δέχομαι ("to receive, accept")

οὐ δύναται γνῶναι – cannot understand

δύναται – present middle/passive indicative, 3rd person singular of δύναμαι ("to be able")

γνῶναι – aorist active infinitive of γινώσκω ("to know, understand")

This is another clear statement of inability, using δύναμαι again to indicate lack of capacity

The contrast is between the ψυχικὸς ἄνθρωπος (natural man) and the πνευματικὸς (spiritual man)



Romans 8:7–8
“Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

οὐδὲ γὰρ δύναται – "for it is not even able"

Another explicit inability clause, again using δύναμαι

Summary of Greek Verbs of Inability or Lack of Seeking:

Passage Key Greek Verb Form Meaning

Romans 3:11 ἐκζητέω Present active participle Seek out diligently
John 6:44 δύναται / ἑλκύσῃ Present ind. / Aorist subj. Is able / draws
1 Corinthians 2:14 δύναται γνῶναι Present ind. / Aorist inf. Is able to understand

Romans 8:7 οὐχ ὑποτάσσεται, οὐδὲ δύναται Present ind. Does not submit, is not able

So which part of the explicit "not even able" part do you not understand? Since it stands written and right in front of your eyes?

Take note of the Present Active participles.

Done. This has been dealt with. The onus is on YOU to prove these quotations otherwise and there are more, but this should suffice.

The Scriptures explicitly state: “οὐ δύναται” — is not able — yet you assert the opposite- that man “absolutely can.”

Right on topic. My apologies for veering off, I'm very tired and will make mistakes.

J.
 
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