Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[Johann]

Taking down the Calvinist Strawman on Free Will.

How often have I read in various Facebook theological discussions the declaration of a Calvinist – “Freewill is not taught in Scriptures”? Of course, the freedom of will to go against one’s nature, even for God, is not possible. It is impossible for God to lie or to deny Himself (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18, 2 Tim 2:13). And it is impossible for me to fly by just flapping my arms. But the ability to freely make decisions commensurate with the limits of one’s nature and with the opportunities provided for such decision making is logically part of God’s and man’s nature and experience. The exercise of that ability by God and by man is also well documented in Scripture. And I can fly… if I decide to get on an airplane and allow its power to transport me through the air!

The following is an attempt at a rather thorough study of words used in the OT and NT that teach aspects and examples of the exercise of freewill. The reader will hopefully become convinced, contrary to Calvinistic dramatic false statements in opposition, that freewill is clearly taught in the Scriptures –

The Hebrew word [verb] נדב naw-dab’ is a primitive root that means – to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously…primarily translated as an adverb “willingly” which indicates free motivation or voluntary decision. It is used 17 times in 15 verses throughout OT Scripture [also 3 times in 3 verses using the same root in Aramaic – Ezra 7:13, 15, 16]. (Most of definitions for this paper are adapted from Strong’s Concordance lexical definitions.)

Here are all the verses that translate this word, נדב naw-dab’, with the translation of it underlined. The ESV translation for each verse was chosen to accommodate Calvinist readers, so they won’t have to keep running back to their favorite translation, which is deterministically flavored.

Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me.

Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him….

Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.

Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselves willingly, bless the LORD!

Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.

—-[The verbal form in this last verse is a participle, on the Hithpael stem, which is reflexive in meaning, thus the word “themselves” should be added. This Hithpael verbal stem is used 17 times in the same reflexive way – Jg 5:2, 9; 1Ch 29:5, 6, 9(2x), 14, 17(2x); 2Ch 17:16; Ezr 1:6, 2:68, 3:5, 7:13, 15, 16; Neh 11:2]. The reflexive action only helps to emphasize the non-compulsory action of the person’s will in the decision made in each context—-

The noun נדבה ned-aw-baw’ is used 26 times in 25 verses, mostly in connection with a voluntary – “freewill” – offering to God. With all these verses one cannot help but ask “How can you have a freewill offering without a freewill?” Calvinists reject its normal meaning, but the Bible literally uses the word 26 times. Even the Calvinist translators of the KJV and ESV freely chose “freewill” as a suitable translation. Their translation choice is telling of what they believed this original word meant.

Here are the verses in which this noun is used:

Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD. —-[The idea in this verse of a sacrifice made as a free-will offering, one not commanded as an obligation, is also found in – Ex 36:3; Le 7:16, 22:18, 21, 23, 23:38; Nu 15:3; 29:39; De 12:6, 17; 16:10; 2Ch 31:14; Ezr 1:4, 3:5, 8:28; Ps 54:6, 119:108; Eze 46:12(2x); Am 4:5]

Deut 23:23 ESV You shall be careful to do what has passed your lips, for you have voluntarily vowed to the LORD your God what you have promised with your mouth.

2Ch 35:8 ESV And his officials contributed willingly to the people, to the priests, and to the Levites….

Ps 68:9 ESV Rain in abundance, O God, you shed abroad; you restored your inheritance as it languished;

Ps 110:3 ESV Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.

Hos 14:4 ESV I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them.

—All these OT verses clearly confirm that man, even an unregenerate man, can exercise a free-will in a manner pleasing to God. Even God is said to exercise His freewill in Hos 14:4. The translation in Ps 68:9 was obviously determined with some subjectivity. It could easily be translated – “A shower of freewill gifts, O God, you have shed abroad…”

Here are some NT words and verses to consider that also speak to the issue of the freedom of the will. A Calvinist may try to attribute all of the following examples as a result of regeneration, but that does not seem to fit this first example –

Acts 17:11-12 ESV Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

—-[from προθυμια proth-oo-mee’-ah, meaning predisposition. See also – 2Co 8:11, 12, 19, 9:2;] The Calvinist may endeavor to suggest this willing predisposition of the Bereans was a result of regeneration, which they think is before faith is expressed. It is very difficult to convince them otherwise when their loyalty to Calvinism is so strong that they refuse to see the gospel of John clearly teaches light is freely received before faith which is before new birth life is given. See John 1:4-13, 12:35-36, 20:30-31.

Other NT verses to consider that speak to the issue of freewill are these –

1Cor 7:37 ESV But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. —-from μη ἔχων ἀνάγκην , literally – “not having a necessity”, which would be impossible if everything was predetermined eternally and immutably, making every event a necessary result of God’s decree. Notice also the verse says this man “having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart.”

1Cor 9:17 ESV For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. —- from εχων hek-own’ meaning willingly.

2Cor 8:3 ESV For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, and 2Cor 8:17 ESV For he not only accepted our appeal, but being himself very earnest he is going to you of his own accord. —-from αυθαιρετος ow-thah’-ee-ret-os – meaning self-chosen, and by implication – voluntary.

2Cor 9:7 ESV Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. —- from προαιρεομαι pro-ahee-reh’-om-ahee – meaning to choose for oneself before another thing, to prefer and by implication, to intend.

Phlm 1:14 ESV but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. —- from εκουσιος hek-oo’-see-on – meaning willingness.

1Pet 5:2 ESV shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; —-from εκουσιον hek-oo-see’-ose – meaning willingly.

The existence of a free will, even post regeneration, runs counter to the idea of an eternally immutable divine will that had completely determined everything forever into the future before creation began. Calvinism is based upon that philosophical premise, making the exercise of any free-will for God or man impossible, before creation and especially after it. That premise makes a falsehood out of these clear Scriptures shared here. These Scriptures and many others clearly show that free will does exist and is being exercised by God and man.Wagner

hope this helps !!!

https://soteriology101.com/2017/07/24/freewill-as-taught-in-scripture/

FREEWILL AS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE
by Brian H. Wagner, Ph.D.,
instructor of church history,
theology and biblical languages
at Virginia Baptist College

How often have I read in various Facebook theological discussions the declaration of a Calvinist – “Freewill is not taught in Scriptures”? Of course, the freedom of will to go against one’s nature, even for God, is not possible. It is impossible for God to lie or to deny Himself (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18, 2 Tim 2:13). And it is impossible for me to fly by just flapping my arms. But the ability to freely make decisions commensurate with the limits of one’s nature and with the opportunities provided for such decision making is logically part of God’s and man’s nature and experience. The exercise of that ability by God and by man is also well documented in Scripture. And I can fly… if I decide to get on an airplane and allow its power to transport me through the air!

The following is an attempt at a rather thorough study of words used in the OT and NT that teach aspects and examples of the exercise of freewill. The reader will hopefully become convinced, contrary to Calvinistic dramatic false statements in opposition, that freewill is clearly taught in the Scriptures –

The Hebrew word [verb] נדב naw-dab’ is a primitive root that means – to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously…primarily translated as an adverb “willingly” which indicates free motivation or voluntary decision. It is used 17 times in 15 verses throughout OT Scripture [also 3 times in 3 verses using the same root in Aramaic – Ezra 7:13, 15, 16]. (Most of definitions for this paper are adapted from Strong’s Concordance lexical definitions.)

Here are all the verses that translate this word, נדב naw-dab’, with the translation of it underlined. The ESV translation for each verse was chosen to accommodate Calvinist readers, so they won’t have to keep running back to their favorite translation, which is deterministically flavored.

Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me.

Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him….

Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.

Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselves willingly, bless the LORD!

Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.

—-[The verbal form in this last verse is a participle, on the Hithpael stem, which is reflexive in meaning, thus the word “themselves” should be added. This Hithpael verbal stem is used 17 times in the same reflexive way – Jg 5:2, 9; 1Ch 29:5, 6, 9(2x), 14, 17(2x); 2Ch 17:16; Ezr 1:6, 2:68, 3:5, 7:13, 15, 16; Neh 11:2]. The reflexive action only helps to emphasize the non-compulsory action of the person’s will in the decision made in each context—-

The noun נדבה ned-aw-baw’ is used 26 times in 25 verses, mostly in connection with a voluntary – “freewill” – offering to God. With all these verses one cannot help but ask “How can you have a freewill offering without a freewill?” Calvinists reject its normal meaning, but the Bible literally uses the word 26 times. Even the Calvinist translators of the KJV and ESV freely chose “freewill” as a suitable translation. Their translation choice is telling of what they believed this original word meant.

Here are the verses in which this noun is used:-----

His soteriology is not appealing to me.

J.

 

[civic]

https://soteriology101.com/2017/07/24/freewill-as-taught-in-scripture/

FREEWILL AS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE
by Brian H. Wagner, Ph.D.,
instructor of church history,
theology and biblical languages
at Virginia Baptist College

How often have I read in various Facebook theological discussions the declaration of a Calvinist – “Freewill is not taught in Scriptures”? Of course, the freedom of will to go against one’s nature, even for God, is not possible. It is impossible for God to lie or to deny Himself (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18, 2 Tim 2:13). And it is impossible for me to fly by just flapping my arms. But the ability to freely make decisions commensurate with the limits of one’s nature and with the opportunities provided for such decision making is logically part of God’s and man’s nature and experience. The exercise of that ability by God and by man is also well documented in Scripture. And I can fly… if I decide to get on an airplane and allow its power to transport me through the air!

The following is an attempt at a rather thorough study of words used in the OT and NT that teach aspects and examples of the exercise of freewill. The reader will hopefully become convinced, contrary to Calvinistic dramatic false statements in opposition, that freewill is clearly taught in the Scriptures –

The Hebrew word [verb] נדב naw-dab’ is a primitive root that means – to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously…primarily translated as an adverb “willingly” which indicates free motivation or voluntary decision. It is used 17 times in 15 verses throughout OT Scripture [also 3 times in 3 verses using the same root in Aramaic – Ezra 7:13, 15, 16]. (Most of definitions for this paper are adapted from Strong’s Concordance lexical definitions.)

Here are all the verses that translate this word, נדב naw-dab’, with the translation of it underlined. The ESV translation for each verse was chosen to accommodate Calvinist readers, so they won’t have to keep running back to their favorite translation, which is deterministically flavored.

Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me.

Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him….

Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.

Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselves willingly, bless the LORD!

Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.

—-[The verbal form in this last verse is a participle, on the Hithpael stem, which is reflexive in meaning, thus the word “themselves” should be added. This Hithpael verbal stem is used 17 times in the same reflexive way – Jg 5:2, 9; 1Ch 29:5, 6, 9(2x), 14, 17(2x); 2Ch 17:16; Ezr 1:6, 2:68, 3:5, 7:13, 15, 16; Neh 11:2]. The reflexive action only helps to emphasize the non-compulsory action of the person’s will in the decision made in each context—-

The noun נדבה ned-aw-baw’ is used 26 times in 25 verses, mostly in connection with a voluntary – “freewill” – offering to God. With all these verses one cannot help but ask “How can you have a freewill offering without a freewill?” Calvinists reject its normal meaning, but the Bible literally uses the word 26 times. Even the Calvinist translators of the KJV and ESV freely chose “freewill” as a suitable translation. Their translation choice is telling of what they believed this original word meant.

Here are the verses in which this noun is used:-----

His soteriology is not appealing to me.

J.

And Calvins is not to me either.

Neither is AI to me.

Neither are commentaries to me.

Neither are the doctrines of man

 

[brightfame52]

The Truths of TULIP were way b4 Calvin, they are Truths of the Gospel !

 

[Johann]

And Calvins is not to me either.

Neither is AI to me.

Neither are commentaries to me.

Neither are the doctrines of man

Ultimately, what matters is not what you or I are saying, but what the Scriptures themselves declare.

J.

 

[civic]

Ultimately, what matters is not what you or I are saying, but what the Scriptures themselves declare.

J.

Yes as God declared to the unregenerate Jews in the O.T.

Choose this day whom you will serve !!!!!!!!!!

 

[atpollard]

One verse does not doctrine make.

Have you considered having that made into a Tee-shirt?

You have eisegeted John 6:44,,as is the custom with calvinist understanding.

You have refused to engage with a Calvinist (although I am technically a Particular Baptist) on the Scripture that has actually been provided, as is the custom of people with CDS [Calvinism Derrangement Syndrome]

John 6:44 states “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Now why don't YOU exegete that verse to demonstrate that what Jesus really means is:

• EVERYONE without exception, all men the whole world, can come to Jesus
• The FATHER's draw is not needed in all cases because MANY just WANT to come to Jesus innately without any draw from God and the rest exercise their FREE WILL to choose to come to Jesus when they are ready, or they choose not to come if that is what the people want.
• Jesus will raise THEM (everyone) on the last day as long as that person chooses to maintain their faith by the power of their own free will internal strength.

I look forward to it.

You have established NOTHING.

Except that Jesus SAID what Jesus said (and the Doctrines of Grace say the same thing because We agree with Jesus).

Please establish that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Thanks.

"UNABLE TO" is tricky since you have already rejected Jesus saying "no one can" as indicating "unable".
Would you accept man WILL NOT or DOES NOT SEEK GOD?

 

[brightfame52]

Yes as God declared to the unregenerate Jews in the O.T.

Choose this day whom you will serve !!!!!!!!!!

They were already His Chosen People, and that Sovereignly Deut 7:6-7

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

 

[civic]

They were already His Chosen People, and that Sovereignly Deut 7:6-7

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7 The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

They were not saved.

Next fallacy

 

[atpollard]

Choose this day whom you will serve !

And what did they choose ...

2 Chronicles 36:15-16 [ESV]

15 The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent persistently to them by his messengers, because he had compassion on his people and on his dwelling place. 16 But they kept mocking the messengers of God, despising his words and scoffing at his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD rose against his people, until there was no remedy.​

Malachi 3:6-9 [ESV]

6 "For I the LORD do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed. 7 From the days of your fathers you have turned aside from my statutes and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you, says the LORD of hosts. But you say, 'How shall we return?' 8 Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, 'How have we robbed you?' In your tithes and contributions. 9 You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you.​

Matthew 23:37 [ESV]

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!​

Romans 3:9-18 [ESV]

9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:​

“None is righteous, no, not one;​

11 no one understands;​

no one seeks for God.​

12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;​

no one does good,​

not even one.”​

13 “Their throat is an open grave;​

they use their tongues to deceive.”​

“The venom of asps is under their lips.”​

14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”​

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;​

16 in their paths are ruin and misery,​

17 and the way of peace they have not known.”​

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”​

 

[Johann]

Yes as God declared to the unregenerate Jews in the O.T.

Choose this day whom you will serve !!!!!!!!!!

That’s incorrect. It would be wise to consult secondary sources to better understand the context and to approach the chapter-and the entire book-with a holistic perspective. This kind of careful hermeneutics helps prevent us from reading our own biases and preconceived assumptions into an isolated proof text.


The key verb in Joshua 24:15 is בָּחַר (bachar), translated as "choose." It means to select, choose, or prefer, often with a sense of deliberate decision-making. In this context, Joshua commands the Israelites to bachar whom they will serve (עָבַד, abad, meaning to serve or worship).

Syntactically, bachar is an imperative (b'charu, "you [plural] choose"), indicating a command to make a decision. The phrase "this day" (hayyom) emphasizes urgency and immediacy.

The verb abad (serve) is in the imperfect tense (ta'avdun, "you will serve"), suggesting a future or ongoing action resulting from the choice.

The use of bachar as an imperative assumes the audience is capable of making a choice in some sense, as it would be incoherent to command an action that is impossible. However, the verb itself does not specify how the audience is able to choose—whether by their own inherent ability or through divine enablement. [ Prove me wrong here]

Context of Joshua 24:15
Audience: Your statement claims the command was given to "unregenerate Jews." In biblical theology, "unregenerate" typically refers to those who are spiritually dead, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or a renewed heart (e.g., Ephesians 2:1). However, the audience in Joshua 24 is the covenant people of Israel at the end of Joshua’s life, gathered at Shechem to renew their commitment to the Lord.

These Israelites were not "unregenerate" in the sense of being outside God’s covenant or devoid of divine influence.
They were the recipients of God’s redemptive acts (e.g., the Exodus, conquest of Canaan) and were under the Mosaic Covenant, which included God’s promises and commands (Deuteronomy 7:6-11).

God had already worked in their midst, revealing Himself through miracles, the Law, and His presence (e.g., Joshua 24:5-13, where God recounts His actions). This suggests a context of divine enablement, not a group of spiritually dead people acting independently.

Joshua’s command is a call to covenant fidelity, urging the Israelites to reject idolatry and serve the Lord exclusively.
The choice is not about initiating a relationship with God from scratch but about remaining faithful to the God who has already chosen and redeemed them (Deuteronomy 7:7-8, where God’s choice [bachar] of Israel is emphasized).

The people affirm, “We will serve the LORD” (Joshua 24:18), but Joshua warns them, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God” (24:19). This suggests that even their ability to serve faithfully depends on God’s grace, not merely human willpower.


Jos 24:19 And Yehoshua said unto HaAm, Ye are not able to serve Hashem; for He is an Elohim Kedoshim; He is an El Kanno (jealous G-d); He will not forgive your paysha'im nor your chattot.
Jos 24:20 If ye forsake Hashem, and serve elohei nekhar (foreign g-ds), then He will turn and bring you rah, and consume you, after that He hath done you tov.


Jos 24:19 And Joshua said to the people, You cannot serve YAHWEH, for He is a holy Elohim; He is a jealous El. He will not lift up from you your transgressions or your sins.
Jos 24:20 When you forsake YAHWEH, and shall serve strange gods then He will turn away and do evil to you, and consume you, after He has done good to you.

Paradoxical.

Thanks.

J.

 

[civic]

That’s incorrect. It would be wise to consult secondary sources to better understand the context and to approach the chapter-and the entire book-with a holistic perspective. This kind of careful hermeneutics helps prevent us from reading our own biases and preconceived assumptions into an isolated proof text.


The key verb in Joshua 24:15 is בָּחַר (bachar), translated as "choose." It means to select, choose, or prefer, often with a sense of deliberate decision-making. In this context, Joshua commands the Israelites to bachar whom they will serve (עָבַד, abad, meaning to serve or worship).

Syntactically, bachar is an imperative (b'charu, "you [plural] choose"), indicating a command to make a decision. The phrase "this day" (hayyom) emphasizes urgency and immediacy.

The verb abad (serve) is in the imperfect tense (ta'avdun, "you will serve"), suggesting a future or ongoing action resulting from the choice.

The use of bachar as an imperative assumes the audience is capable of making a choice in some sense, as it would be incoherent to command an action that is impossible. However, the verb itself does not specify how the audience is able to choose—whether by their own inherent ability or through divine enablement. [ Prove me wrong here]

Context of Joshua 24:15
Audience: Your statement claims the command was given to "unregenerate Jews." In biblical theology, "unregenerate" typically refers to those who are spiritually dead, without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit or a renewed heart (e.g., Ephesians 2:1). However, the audience in Joshua 24 is the covenant people of Israel at the end of Joshua’s life, gathered at Shechem to renew their commitment to the Lord.

These Israelites were not "unregenerate" in the sense of being outside God’s covenant or devoid of divine influence.
They were the recipients of God’s redemptive acts (e.g., the Exodus, conquest of Canaan) and were under the Mosaic Covenant, which included God’s promises and commands (Deuteronomy 7:6-11).

God had already worked in their midst, revealing Himself through miracles, the Law, and His presence (e.g., Joshua 24:5-13, where God recounts His actions). This suggests a context of divine enablement, not a group of spiritually dead people acting independently.

Joshua’s command is a call to covenant fidelity, urging the Israelites to reject idolatry and serve the Lord exclusively.
The choice is not about initiating a relationship with God from scratch but about remaining faithful to the God who has already chosen and redeemed them (Deuteronomy 7:7-8, where God’s choice [bachar] of Israel is emphasized).

The people affirm, “We will serve the LORD” (Joshua 24:18), but Joshua warns them, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God” (24:19). This suggests that even their ability to serve faithfully depends on God’s grace, not merely human willpower.


Jos 24:19 And Yehoshua said unto HaAm, Ye are not able to serve Hashem; for He is an Elohim Kedoshim; He is an El Kanno (jealous G-d); He will not forgive your paysha'im nor your chattot.
Jos 24:20 If ye forsake Hashem, and serve elohei nekhar (foreign g-ds), then He will turn and bring you rah, and consume you, after that He hath done you tov.


Jos 24:19 And Joshua said to the people, You cannot serve YAHWEH, for He is a holy Elohim; He is a jealous El. He will not lift up from you your transgressions or your sins.
Jos 24:20 When you forsake YAHWEH, and shall serve strange gods then He will turn away and do evil to you, and consume you, after He has done good to you.

Paradoxical.

Thanks.

J.

Not interested in what AI says

 

[Johann]

"because all sinned" ... Finally, some good news! We can stop worrying about any perceived unfairness in OUR being guilty for ADAM's sin (just because Adam represented all "humanity" and we are part of humanity). WE all live up to our full potential and achieve the sins of Adam (rebellion against God) completely on our own ... far exceeding the actions of Adam in EVIL and earning our damnation far more surely that even Adam earned his damnation.

• We all achieve PERSONAL GUILT (with only a little encouragement from our fallen nature).
• Let's be honest, how hard does your EYE really have to work to MAKE you LUST and commit adultery in your heart? How hard does your flesh really have to push you to be angry at the driver that changed lanes too close to you and MAKE you angry (murder in your heart). If we are honest, not very. We are a fairly willing victim.

You do realize there’s a significant debate surrounding this issue, @atpollard? I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong here—but the entire matter hinges on...

Rom 5:12 Because of Διὰ this, τοῦτο just as ὥσπερ - ἡ sin ἁμαρτία entered εἰσῆλθεν, into εἰς the τὸν world κόσμον through δι’ one ἑνὸς man, ἀνθρώπου and καὶ - ὁ death θάνατος, through διὰ - τῆς sin, ἁμαρτίας so οὕτως also καὶ - ὁ death θάνατος passed διῆλθεν, to εἰς all πάντας men, ἀνθρώπους because ἐφ’ . . . ᾧ all πάντες sinned. ἥμαρτον·

Take note of the 3 Aorist's-is this "causal?"

J.

 

[Johann]

Not interested in what AI says

I’m taking the @Administrator’s advice to heart in the interest of keeping the peace—but ultimately, this is your loss, not mine. Scripture calls us to pursue peace and humility, even when parting ways-

Romans 12:18 – “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.”

Proverbs 15:1 – “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”

2 Timothy 2:24–25 – “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth.”

J.

 

[GodsGrace]

One Verse Does Not Doctrine Make?"

While it’s true that sound doctrine should be built on the broader testimony of Scripture, a single verse can carry significant theological weight when it aligns with the consistent teaching of the Bible. John 6:44 ("No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him") is not an isolated statement but part of a larger biblical narrative about human inability and divine initiative.

Other passages corroborate this idea:

Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Ephesians 2:1-5: Humans are "dead in trespasses and sins," incapable of spiritual life apart from God’s intervention.

1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them."

These verses, among others, form a cumulative case that human beings, in their natural state, lack the ability to seek God without divine enablement. Thus, John 6:44 is not a standalone proof-text but part of a broader scriptural pattern.

WHERE in the above verses does it state that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD??

Romans 3:10-11 NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD.
How can this be correct when I posted a page full of verses COMMANDING man to seek God?


Your verse no. 1


Romans 3:10-11
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Romans 3 comes from
Psalm 14:1-3
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

It is referring to THE FOOL who believes THERE IS NO GOD.
These people are corrupt...THESE PEOPLE...
They have committed abominable deeds....

This does NOT refer to EVERYONE,,,but to those that do not believe in God and do abominable deeds.

Verse 4
DO ALL THE WORKERS OF WICKEDNESS NOT KNOW....

It is speaking of workers in wickedness...NOT EVERYONE.

Verse 5
They are in great dread, for God is with the righteous generation...

Apparently there is a righteous generation....not ALL are unrighteous.

Also,,,,
Was Abraham not righteous?
Was Noah not righteous?
Jonah?

Psalms was referring to a SPECIFIC situation and Calvinism takes advantage of this one verse as if it means that man is unable to seek God.
MAN IS COMMANDED to seek God, and I've shown that with many verses.

*********************************************

Your verse no. 2:

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ),


We are all dead in trespasses and sins.
We followed the prince of the air: satan.
We are, by nature, tending toward sin and children of wrath.
But God made us alive together with Christ.....by GRACE we have been saved.

It is God's GRACE that saves us...by our faith.

As Paul states:
Romans 10:17
17faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God...

God made us alive again because we presented ourselves TO HIM for salvation.
Paul states:
Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
We present OURSELVES, through our own free will, to the one we will obey...God or satan.

It is God that makes us alive....
when we choose to be made alive.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE is not biblical.

********************************************************************************

Your verse no. 3

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot * understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

So? A non-believer cannot understand concepts in the bible.
Only the Holy Spirit can help a believer to understand.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to help us.

On your Accusation of Eisegesis and Calvinist Bias

Eisegesis implies imposing a preconceived interpretation on the text. However, the interpretation of John 6:44 as indicating human inability aligns with the plain reading of the verse in its context. Jesus states unequivocally that "no one can come" (Greek: dynamai, indicating ability) unless the Father draws them. The emphasis is on divine action as a prerequisite for human response.

The context of John 6 reinforces this:
In John 6:37, Jesus says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me," indicating divine election precedes human faith.

NO.
John 6:37 does NOT indicate Divine election.
All that believe in the Father...of their own free will....
are given to Jesus FOR SALVATION...
Jesus is the Savior...
HE is the one we look to for salvation.

And, for the upteenth time...
John 6:44 CANNOT mean that that no one can go to the Son unless the Father draws him, as Calvinists understand the word DRAW.

Why?

Because then it would mean that the whole world is saved because Jesus said:
John 12:32
And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

In John 6:65, Jesus reiterates, "No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father," doubling down on the necessity of divine initiative.

This interpretation does not require a Calvinist lens-what I keep on telling you- it emerges from the text itself.

NO.
It requires a Calvinist lens.
There is NO VERSE in scripture that supports Calvinism.
Calvinism is NOT biblical and cannot be supported by scripture.

Non-Calvinist scholars, such as Arminians, may disagree on the implications (e.g., whether the drawing is resistible), but the verse’s assertion of human inability apart from divine action is difficult to dispute without altering its clear meaning.

Why is it difficult?
I gave you the simple explanation above.
No scholar needed.
Scripture explains itself.
Praise God.

If you believes this is eisegesis, YOU must demonstrate how the text supports an alternative reading (e.g., that humans can seek God independently) without imposing your own assumptions.

I've been doing that all along.
And have done it again here with your 3 verses.
I have no problem exegeting ANY verse you may believe supports calvinsim.

Establishing That Man Is Unable to Seek God

Please post a few verses that show that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD when scripture is full of verses that command us to do it.
I've done this a couple of times now just today....
do you even read my posts??

The Bible consistently portrays humanity as spiritually incapacitated due to sin, unable to seek God without divine intervention.
Romans 3:11: "No one seeks for God." This categorical statement, rooted in Psalm 14:1-3, describes the universal condition of fallen humanity. The Greek (ekzēteō) implies a deliberate seeking, which Paul says no one does naturally.

Already replied to.

Ephesians 2:1-3: Humans are "dead" in sin, following the "course of this world" and their own desires. Spiritual death implies an inability to initiate a relationship with God, akin to a corpse’s inability to act.

We are spiritually dead. Not physically dead.
Post some verses that plainly state that we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

JESUS stated in Matthew 6:33 TO SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Jesus does not agree with you that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

John 8:34, 43-44: Jesus describes unbelievers as slaves to sin, unable to hear or understand His words because of their spiritual condition.

Read Romans 6:16...we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we will obey.
Then reconcile the two.
THIS is exegesis...

Colossians 1:21: Before reconciliation, humans are "alienated and hostile in mind," indicating a natural enmity toward God.

So?
Of course this is true.
Where does it state we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD?

These passages collectively show that sin has so corrupted human nature that people are unwilling and unable to seek God apart from His grace. The "drawing" in John 6:44 (Greek: helkyō, to draw or drag) suggests a divine act that overcomes this inability, as seen elsewhere (e.g., Jeremiah 31:3, where God draws with lovingkindness). NOT by FORCE as you accuse me of.

If humans could seek God independently, it would imply some inherent goodness or ability unaffected by the Fall, contradicting the doctrine of total depravity (supported by Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9).

Apparently, you trust your own conclusions more than scripture.
Please reconcile all the verses I gave you declaring we are to seek God with what you just posted above.

Even Arminian theology, which emphasizes free will, typically acknowledges prevenient grace—a divine enablement—as necessary for humans to respond to God.

Your assertion demands proof of human inability but offers no counter evidence that humans can seek God without divine aid.

Again...I suppose scripture is not good enough for you.

To refute the claim, you- the accuser should provide:

Scriptural examples of unregenerate people seeking God without prior divine intervention.

Done.
You refuse plain scripture.

Please provide scripture that states that a person cannot seek God unless there is divine intervention.

Which would make Calvinism correct.

A contextual explanation of John 6:44 that negates the necessity of divine drawing.

Passages sometimes cited to argue human ability (e.g., "Seek and you will find," Matthew 7:7) are addressed to those already responding to God’s initiative or within the covenant community, not to unregenerate humanity at large.

Interesting.
Those ALREADY SAVED are told to seek?

No further comment necessary on my side.

Again,,,,JESUS said seek and you will find.
Did YOU read that He was speaking to already saved persons?
Please provide the proof as you demand of me.

That said-your assertion that "one verse does not doctrine make" is a weak critique when John 6:44 is supported by a robust biblical framework.Your accusation of eisegesis fails, as the interpretation of human inability flows naturally from the text and its context.

It's not a weak critique because YOU keep referring to John 6:44 which I've explained several times now.
(not in this post).

The challenge to establish that man is unable to seek God is met with clear scriptural evidence (Romans 3:11, Ephesians 2:1, etc.), showing that humans, apart from divine grace, are spiritually dead and incapable of seeking God. The burden now lies with YOU to provide scriptural evidence to the contrary.

Thanks.

J.

Done.

But YOU have not provided ANY verse that shows that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

I've provided MANY verses stating/commanding man to seek God.

Now YOU post as many verses stating man cannot...
or at least a few.

 

[GodsGrace]

Have you considered having that made into a Tee-shirt?


You have refused to engage with a Calvinist (although I am technically a Particular Baptist) on the Scripture that has actually been provided, as is the custom of people with CDS [Calvinism Derrangement Syndrome]

Always referral to ad hominems when difficulty presents itself.

John 6:44 states “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Now why don't YOU exegete that verse to demonstrate that what Jesus really means is:

• EVERYONE without exception, all men the whole world, can come to Jesus
• The FATHER's draw is not needed in all cases because MANY just WANT to come to Jesus innately without any draw from God and the rest exercise their FREE WILL to choose to come to Jesus when they are ready, or they choose not to come if that is what the people want.
• Jesus will raise THEM (everyone) on the last day as long as that person chooses to maintain their faith by the power of their own free will internal strength.

I look forward to it.

Done it many times.
See post 74...the bottom half.

What Jesus really means does not require your bullet points.
It only requires reading scripture with no preconceived ideas.

Except that Jesus SAID what Jesus said (and the Doctrines of Grace say the same thing because We agree with Jesus).

Apparently Jesus does not agree with the "doctrines of grace".
A term only calvinists use.

"UNABLE TO" is tricky since you have already rejected Jesus saying "no one can" as indicating "unable".
Would you accept man WILL NOT or DOES NOT SEEK GOD?

If Jesus said NO ONE CAN....
and it means what YOU THINK it means...

then Jesus did not know the OT scriptures and told many lies.

I posted the following verses in my post no. 47 to you...
maybe you missed it:

Matthew 6:33​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.


Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.


Matthew 7:7-8
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.


Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.


James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


Acts 17:27
That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,


There are many more if the above are not sufficient.

 

[Kampioen]

Let’s put a pin in Irresistible Grace for a moment, we will get there.

“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44

So we have established that “No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY]” is biblically correct EXEGESIS and not the “eisigesis” that you claimed it was. Let us move on …

It says they won't come if not drawn. It doesn't say they will necessarily come if drawn. They need the drawing but it doesn't say irresistible or inability except for the fact that they don't know.

John 6:40 (KJV) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, *and believeth* on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

They must see and believe the Son first. Then they will respond to the drawing and come as in verse 44.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me …”

• So what is the CONDITION that is a prerequisite for the Father to draw making the person an exception to the “no one can come” (since we know that some do come).
• According to Jesus and TULIP, it is “the Father”, so it is no CONDITION related to the person that comes. That is the definition of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION, the Father chooses because the Father chooses, not because of any merit in the person chosen.
• I welcome your explanation of the CONDITION for God’s choice.

 

[brightfame52]

They were not saved.

Next fallacy

You dont know who was saved among that people, nevertheless, they were Gods chosen people already, and it wasnt by their own freewill choice, as it is today, God has a chosen people that is saved, and it wasn't by their own choice.

 

[atpollard]

It says they won't come if not drawn. It doesn't say they will necessarily come if drawn. They need the drawing but it doesn't say irresistible or inability except for the fact that they don't know.

Define the word DRAW in English.
Then locate the exact GREEK word used (no fancy arguments from Greek here) ... just look up EVERY verse where that word [G1670] appears in scripture (there are 8 of them). Then we can talk about whether DRAW [G1670] means they will "necessarily come" or not.

 

[Johann]

WHERE in the above verses does it state that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD??

Romans 3:10-11 NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD.
How can this be correct when I posted a page full of verses COMMANDING man to seek God?


Your verse no. 1


Romans 3:10-11
10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Romans 3 comes from
Psalm 14:1-3
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

It is referring to THE FOOL who believes THERE IS NO GOD.
These people are corrupt...THESE PEOPLE...
They have committed abominable deeds....

This does NOT refer to EVERYONE,,,but to those that do not believe in God and do abominable deeds.

Verse 4
DO ALL THE WORKERS OF WICKEDNESS NOT KNOW....

It is speaking of workers in wickedness...NOT EVERYONE.

Verse 5
They are in great dread, for God is with the righteous generation...

Apparently there is a righteous generation....not ALL are unrighteous.

Also,,,,
Was Abraham not righteous?
Was Noah not righteous?
Jonah?

Psalms was referring to a SPECIFIC situation and Calvinism takes advantage of this one verse as if it means that man is unable to seek God.
MAN IS COMMANDED to seek God, and I've shown that with many verses.

*********************************************

Your verse no. 2:

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved ),


We are all dead in trespasses and sins.
We followed the prince of the air: satan.
We are, by nature, tending toward sin and children of wrath.
But God made us alive together with Christ.....by GRACE we have been saved.

It is God's GRACE that saves us...by our faith.

As Paul states:
Romans 10:17
17faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God...

God made us alive again because we presented ourselves TO HIM for salvation.
Paul states:
Romans 6:16
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
We present OURSELVES, through our own free will, to the one we will obey...God or satan.

It is God that makes us alive....
when we choose to be made alive.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE is not biblical.

********************************************************************************

Your verse no. 3

1 Corinthians 2:14
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot * understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

So? A non-believer cannot understand concepts in the bible.
Only the Holy Spirit can help a believer to understand.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to help us.



NO.
John 6:37 does NOT indicate Divine election.
All that believe in the Father...of their own free will....
are given to Jesus FOR SALVATION...
Jesus is the Savior...
HE is the one we look to for salvation.

And, for the upteenth time...
John 6:44 CANNOT mean that that no one can go to the Son unless the Father draws him, as Calvinists understand the word DRAW.

Why?

Because then it would mean that the whole world is saved because Jesus said:
John 12:32
And if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men to Myself.

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


NO.
It requires a Calvinist lens.
There is NO VERSE in scripture that supports Calvinism.
Calvinism is NOT biblical and cannot be supported by scripture.

Why is it difficult?
I gave you the simple explanation above.
No scholar needed.
Scripture explains itself.
Praise God.

I've been doing that all along.
And have done it again here with your 3 verses.
I have no problem exegeting ANY verse you may believe supports calvinsim.



Please post a few verses that show that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD when scripture is full of verses that command us to do it.
I've done this a couple of times now just today....
do you even read my posts??

Already replied to.

We are spiritually dead. Not physically dead.
Post some verses that plainly state that we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

JESUS stated in Matthew 6:33 TO SEEK FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Jesus does not agree with you that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

Read Romans 6:16...we PRESENT OURSELVES to the one we will obey.
Then reconcile the two.
THIS is exegesis...

So?
Of course this is true.
Where does it state we are UNABLE TO SEEK GOD?

Apparently, you trust your own conclusions more than scripture.
Please reconcile all the verses I gave you declaring we are to seek God with what you just posted above.

Again...I suppose scripture is not good enough for you.


Done.
You refuse plain scripture.

Please provide scripture that states that a person cannot seek God unless there is divine intervention.

Which would make Calvinism correct.


Interesting.
Those ALREADY SAVED are told to seek?

No further comment necessary on my side.

Again,,,,JESUS said seek and you will find.
Did YOU read that He was speaking to already saved persons?
Please provide the proof as you demand of me.


It's not a weak critique because YOU keep referring to John 6:44 which I've explained several times now.
(not in this post).

Done.

But YOU have not provided ANY verse that shows that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.

I've provided MANY verses stating/commanding man to seek God.

Now YOU post as many verses stating man cannot...
or at least a few.

Please allow me some time to respond-I'm not able to sit at my computer constantly, as I have other responsibilities that require my attention.

J.

 

[civic]

Please allow me some time to respond-I'm not able to sit at my computer constantly, as I have other responsibilities that require my attention.

J.

Just type it in your own words from your phone.