GodsGrace
Well-known member
Make up your mind Johann...
are you a calvinist or not?
Why post a page full of verses to me that do NOT EVEN SUPPORT CALVINISM...
in response to something incorrect that a calvinist posted?
Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism
- Thread starter Behold
- Start date
are you a calvinist or not?
Why post a page full of verses to me that do NOT EVEN SUPPORT CALVINISM...
in response to something incorrect that a calvinist posted?
Johann
Well-known member
Your fixation on Calvinism, and your unfounded belief that I subscribe to it, has clouded your judgment. As such, I see no further reason to continue this conversation.
Shalom.
J.
Johann
Well-known member
This is not Calvinism but Biblical-ism.
@GodsGrace
In the Pauline Epistles, Paul emphasizes the Holy Spirit’s primary role in initiating salvation, as seen in verbs like ἐκχέω (ekcheō, “pour out,” Romans 5:5), ἀποκαλύπτω (apokalyptō, “reveal,” 1 Corinthians 2:10), σῴζω (sōzō, “save,” Titus 3:5), and ἀνακαινόω (anakainoō, “renew,” Titus 3:5). These suggest that the Spirit acts first to enable faith and regeneration.
The question is whether an unregenerate person, prior to this divine work, can make a meaningful choice to accept or reject salvation. Right?
Romans 8:7-8
“The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it οὐχ ὑποτάσσεται (ouch hypotassetai, present passive of ὑποτάσσω, ‘does not submit’) to God’s law; indeed, it οὐ δύναται (ou dynatai, present middle of δύναμαι, ‘is not able’).”
Context: Paul describes the unregenerate state, characterized by spiritual inability.
Implication: The unregenerate mind οὐ δύναται (cannot) submit to God, suggesting that without the Spirit’s intervention, the unregenerate lack the capacity to choose salvation. The verb οὐχ ὑποτάσσεται reinforces their natural hostility, indicating no inherent ability to choose God’s offer of salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:14
“The natural person οὐ δέχεται (ou dechetai, present middle of δέχομαι, ‘does not accept’) the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and οὐ δύναται (ou dynatai, ‘is not able’) to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
Context: Paul contrasts the natural (unregenerate) person with the spiritual (regenerate) person.
Implication: The verb οὐ δέχεται indicates the unregenerate person’s inability to accept spiritual truths, and οὐ δύναται underscores their incapacity to understand them without the Spirit’s prior work (ἀποκαλύπτω, “reveal,” v. 10). This suggests that the unregenerate cannot make an informed choice for salvation without divine enablement.
Ephesians 2:1-5
“You were dead in your trespasses and sins… But God… ἐζωοποίησεν (ezōopoiēsen, aorist active of ζωοποιέω, ‘made alive’) with Christ.”
Context: Paul describes the unregenerate as spiritually dead, saved by grace through faith (v. 8).
Implication: Spiritual death implies an inability to choose salvation, as the dead cannot act. The verb ἐζωοποίησεν shows that God, through the Spirit, initiates salvation by making the unregenerate alive, enabling faith. The unregenerate state precludes autonomous choice until the Spirit acts.
Titus 3:5
“He ἔσωσεν (esōsen, aorist active of σῴζω, ‘saved’) us… by the washing of regeneration and ἀνακαινώσεως (anakainōseōs, ‘renewal’) of the Holy Spirit.”
Context: Paul emphasizes salvation by God’s mercy, not human works.
Implication: The Spirit’s ἀνακαινόω (renewing) work precedes human response, suggesting that regeneration enables any choice for salvation. The unregenerate, prior to this, lack the spiritual capacity to choose.
Romans 10:17
“Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.”
Context: Paul explains how faith arises through gospel proclamation.
Implication: While no specific verb here describes the Spirit’s action, the process of ἀκοή (akoē, “hearing”) implies the Spirit’s work (cf. Galatians 3:2, ἀκοῆς πίστεως, “hearing of faith”). The unregenerate may hear the gospel, but the Spirit must ἐνεργεῖ (energei, “work,” implied) to enable a faith response.
Reformed/Calvinistic View (Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace)
Based on texts like Romans 8:7-8 (οὐ δύναται) and 1 Corinthians 2:14 (οὐ δέχεται), the unregenerate are spiritually dead and incapable of choosing salvation due to total depravity. The Spirit must first ἐζωοποιέω (make alive, Ephesians 2:5) and ἀνακαινόω (renew, Titus 3:5) the heart, effectually enabling faith. Any “choice” follows regeneration and is a result of the Spirit’s irresistible work.
Key Argument: The unregenerate cannot choose salvation autonomously; the Spirit’s initiative is both necessary and sufficient.
Arminian/Wesleyan View (Prevenient Grace)
Arminians agree that the unregenerate are spiritually dead but argue that God’s prevenient grace, through the Spirit, restores their ability to choose. While texts like Ephesians 2:1 emphasize deadness, the Spirit’s universal work (implied in ἐνεργεῖ, “works,” in gospel proclamation) enables the unregenerate to πιστεύω (pisteuō, “believe,” Ephesians 2:8). Romans 10:17 suggests that hearing the gospel provides an opportunity for choice, empowered by the Spirit.
Key Argument: The unregenerate can choose salvation, but only because the Spirit’s prevenient grace enables them to do so.
Middle Ground (e.g., Some Baptist Views)
Some hold that the unregenerate can respond to the gospel due to the Spirit’s general conviction (ἐλέγχω, elegchō, “convict,” John 16:8, though not Pauline), but this response is not autonomous. The Spirit’s ἀποκαλύπτω (revealing, 1 Corinthians 2:10) and ἐνεργεῖ (working) in the gospel message enable a choice, though the Spirit’s role remains primary.
Key Argument: The unregenerate make a choice, but it is heavily dependent on the Spirit’s initiative.
Based on the Pauline Epistles, the unregenerate person’s ability to make a choice in salvation is severely limited or entirely dependent on the Holy Spirit’s prior work. Key Greek verbs like οὐ δύναται (1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:7) and οὐ δέχεται (1 Corinthians 2:14) indicate that the unregenerate lack the natural capacity to choose salvation due to spiritual deadness and hostility to God. The Spirit’s actions—ἐζωοποιέω (making alive, Ephesians 2:5), ἀνακαινόω (renewing, Titus 3:5), and ἀποκαλύπτω (revealing, 1 Corinthians 2:10)—are necessary to enable any faith response.
Reformed Perspective: The unregenerate cannot choose salvation; the Spirit must regenerate them first, and any choice is a result of this divine work.
Arminian Perspective: The unregenerate can choose, but only because the Spirit’s prevenient grace restores their ability to respond to the gospel.
Pauline Emphasis: Paul consistently prioritizes the Spirit’s initiative (ἔσωσεν, ἐσφραγίσθητε, ἐχαρίσθη), suggesting that any human choice is secondary to and enabled by the Spirit’s work. Romans 10:17 and Galatians 3:2 (ἀκοῆς πίστεως) imply that the Spirit works through the gospel to elicit faith, but texts like Ephesians 2:1-5 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 lean toward the unregenerate’s inability apart from divine intervention.
In Pauline theology, the unregenerate do not make an autonomous choice in salvation due to their spiritual incapacity (οὐ δύναται, οὐ δέχεται). Any choice to accept salvation is enabled by the Holy Spirit’s prior work of regeneration, revelation, or empowerment (ἐζωοποιέω, ἀνακαινόω, ἀποκαλύπτω).
The extent to which this choice is “free” depends on one’s theological framework, but Paul underscores the Spirit’s primary role in initiating salvation.
Not Calvinism, Biblicalism!
J.
Johann
Well-known member
atpollard
Well-known member
I apologize for the misunderstanding.
I stated:
“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44
You accused me of:
"Eisegesis, adding into the text.
So noted."
I accused you of making false claims and responded with: [emphasis added]
John 6:44
No one can come to Me ...
- Please explain who has the ability to come.
- Jesus says "no one" and TULIP says no one [that is what Total Inability means] and @Dizerner says "Eisegeis".
[I will allow you to respond to this before moving on to the next part].
Perhaps you could be clearer in responding so I will not misrepresent your answer.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
You seem to be defending the view of @atpollard.
You're free to do this,,,but I hope you understand that he is a reformed/calvinist believer.
If you support HIS view, it is, as I've said, you're prerogative.
But you ARE supporting a calvinist view.
Also, I spent time on replying to your EVERY VERSE.
None of those verses support the calvinist view, and yet, you posted them.
Why?
Apparently atpollard either cannot support his view or does not wish to speak to me because
he might be unable to. So kuddos for stepping in for him.
Having been a reformed believer and having left that belief system....
WHY are you supporting it now??
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Once again... even though the above is not for me....
HERE is who has the ability to seek God. See below.
THE BIBLE states that man is ABLE TO SEEK GOD.
Reformed/calvinist theology states that man is NOT able to seek God.
WHO IS RIGHT?
Apparently you did not read my post no. 25...
nor have you read the bible lately.
Stop reading the Confessions and start reading scripture...
what GOD wants you to know:
MAN IS ABLE TO SEEK GOD -- unlike what Calvinism teaches...
Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Matthew 7:7-8
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Isaiah 55:6-7
“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.
James 4:8
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Acts 17:27
That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,
I tend to believe what God states.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
One verse does not doctrine make.
You have eisegeted John 6:44,,as is the custom with calvinist understanding.
You have established NOTHING.
Please establish that man is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
Thanks.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Please understand the doctrine as properly stated does NOT state "man cannot seek God."
It states man cannot seek God on his own initiative in his own righteous desires apart from a preceding work of the undeserved grace of God.
Those are two distinctly different statements.
Johann
Well-known member
The Greek is even more emphatic-
Joh 6:44 No one οὐδεὶς is able δύναται to come ἐλθεῖν to πρός Me με unless ἐὰν . . . μὴ the ὁ Father, Πατὴρ the [one] ὁ having sent πέμψας Me, με draws ἑλκύσῃ him, αὐτόν, and I κἀγὼ will raise him up ἀναστήσω . . . αὐτὸν in ἐν the τῇ last ἐσχάτῃ day. ἡμέρᾳ.
Except the Father draw him (ean mē helkusēi auton). Negative condition of third class with ean mē and first aorist active subjunctive of helkuō, older form helkō, to drag like a net (Jhn_21:6), or sword (Jhn_18:10), or men (Act_16:19), to draw by moral power (Jhn_12:32), as in Jer_31:3. Surō, the other word to drag (Act_8:3; Act_14:19) is not used of Christ’s drawing power. The same point is repeated in Jhn_6:65. The approach of the soul to God is initiated by God, the other side of Jhn_6:37. See Rom_8:7 for the same doctrine and use of oude dunatai like oudeis dunatai here.
Robertson.
Draw (ἑλκύση)
Two words for drawing are found in the New Testament, σύρω and ἑλκύω. The distinction is not habitually observed, and the meanings often overlap. Σύρω is originally to drag or trail along, as a garment or torn slippers. Both words are used of haling to justice. (See Act_8:3; Act_17:6; Act_16:19) In Act_14:19, συ.ρω, of dragging Paul's senseless body out of the city at Lystra. In Jhn_21:6, Jhn_21:8, Jhn_21:11, both words of drawing the net. In Jhn_18:10, ἑλκύω, of drawing Peter's sword. One distinction, however, is observed: σύρω is never used of Christ's attraction of men. See Jhn_6:44; Jhn_12:32. Ἑλκύω occurs only once outside of John's writings (Act_16:19). Luther says on this passage: “The drawing is not like that of the executioner, who draws the thief up the ladder to the gallows; but it is a gracious allurement, such as that of the man whom everybody loves, and to whom everybody willingly goes.”
Vincent.
j.
You are missing what has actually been written to you. I once leaned toward Reformed theology and, like you, eventually left that system. But you seem to be overlooking the fact that this discussion is not about Reformed theology or Calvinism—it is about what the Bible actually says, not what Johann or any other system says.
I’m well-acquainted with the prooftexting habits of both theological camps, which is precisely why I’ve devoted myself to studying Scripture itself. You may not have a desire to study the Koine Greek, which is understandable-but don’t direct your frustration toward someone who has been committed to that kind of study for many years.
Does any of this even register with you? And by the way, the brother in question is fully capable of defending what he believes to be the truth.
J.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Of course. In calvinist theology man CAN DO NOTHING unless God decrees for man to take that action.
Also, TOTAL DEPRAVITY means that man is so depraved that he is UNABLE TO SEEK GOD.
Before you debate with a Calvinist,,,
make sure you know what Calvinism teaches.
They're the same.
Read your sentence again...slowly.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
Well the brother in question will not post to me because he finds it too difficult.
YOU, on the other hand, seem to be siding with someone who reads the bible completely incorrectly because he'd rather study the Confessions instead of the bible.
I've missed NOTHING of what you posted.
I replied to each and every verse and showed you how it has nothing to do with calvinism...
which you apparently believed they did.
And to which you did not reply.
However, your paragraph on DRAW is correct...and I don't have to know it from the Greek.
The draw in John 6:44 and John 12:36 is different from the DRAW in Acts 8:3
And...if DRAW means what @atpollard THINKS it means in John 6:44....
it would mean that ALL PERSONS ARE SAVED...because it is used also in John 12:32.
Calvinists have a difficult time with simple verses that are self-explanatory.
GodsGrace
Well-known member
PS
I'll tell you my fixations:
1. OSAS a doctrine that could cause some to lose their salvation.
2. CALVINISM it changes the nature and character of God.
3. GOOD WORKS some Christians seem to believe that good works are not necessary.
I will continue to be fixated on these 3 topics because I feel soteriology is the most important part of Christian theology.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Fascinating.
Those sentences are not logically the same, they are completely different.
One states a condition is necessary.
The other states no condition can apply.
Man can seek God all over the place by God's grace alone, there's no contradiction in that.
I think you have programmed yourself to read them the same... the difference WITH and WITHOUT grace is the difference between heaven and hell.
Dizerner
Well-known member
I was perfectly clear.
You just ran on in your assumptions.
You added words in the verse that don't derive from the verse, that is eisegesis.
It is YOUR faulty assumption that assumed I meant EVERY word.
atpollard
Well-known member
As long as they come for me with SCRIPTURE and not "ad hominem" I will be HAPPY!
I did not come here looking for agreement, but HONEST disagreement. [Like Elijah on Mount Carmel - 1 Kings 18 ...
]I'll give it a shot ...
Start with CONTEXT (at least the Paragraph).
Romans 5:12-17
[NLT] (easy to read)
12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break. 14 Still, everyone died--from the time of Adam to the time of Moses--even those who did not disobey an explicit commandment of God, as Adam did. Now Adam is a symbol, a representation of Christ, who was yet to come. 15 But there is a great difference between Adam's sin and God's gracious gift. For the sin of this one man, Adam, brought death to many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of forgiveness to many through this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 And the result of God's gracious gift is very different from the result of that one man's sin. For Adam's sin led to condemnation, but God's free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.
[ESV] (closer to word for word)
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Some HINTS from people that came before:
- “To Paul, Adam was more than a historical individual, the first man; he was also what his name means in Hebrew — ‘humanity.’ The whole of humanity is viewed as having existed at first in Adam.” (Bruce)
- Adam sinned with full knowledge ... 1 Timothy 2:14 [ESV] "and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."
- Genesis 2:17 [ESV] "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
- “All sinned in this case means ‘all sinned in Adam’; Adam’s sin is the sin of all.” (Morris)
- Psalm 51:5 [ESV] "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
- (David Brown) v.12
- Wherefore--that is, Things being so; referring back to the whole preceding argument.
- as by one man--Adam.
- sin--considered here in its guilt, criminality, penal desert.
- entered into the world, and death by sin--as the penalty of sin.
- and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned--rather, "all sinned," that is, in that one man's first sin. Thus death reaches every individual of the human family, as the penalty due to himself. (So, in substance, BENGEL, HODGE, PHILIPPI). Here we should have expected the apostle to finish his sentence, in some such way as this: "Even so, by one man righteousness has entered into the world, and life by righteousness." But, instead of this, we have a digression, extending to five verses, to illustrate the important statement of Rom 5:12; and it is only at Rom 5:18 that the comparison is resumed and finished.
- "THEREFORE" cannot be thrown away or ignored. the conclusion that follows is the result of what came before it. Paul has laid a careful foundation and is about to set a critical structural element upon that foundation. We must acknowledge the foundation and embrace the importance of the next critical support element that will carry the load of what will be built upon it. So what is this foundation?
- Romans 5:1, 11 [ESV] 1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. ... 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
- Another "THEREFORE", so looking back further ...
- Romans 4:13, 25 [ESV] 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. ... 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
- This is the foundation upon which Romans 5:12 is building.
- " just as sin came into the world through one man" ... I am predisposed to accept the doctrine of "Original Sin". I acknowledge it is a 'prejudice'. However, that does not make it INCORRECT.
- The one man is ADAM and sin [empirically speaking] DID enter the world through Adam who CHOSE sin and was not deceived.
- Scripture affirms a special relationship between ALL PEOPLE and TWO distinct people that share the special distinction of being directly "a special creation" of God. ADAM, the first man, and JESUS the "Christ". From ADAM, mankind inherits GUILT and a fallen nature. We are born into sin (its corrupting influence and damning consequence).
- ADAM truly was "humanity", when he fell, WE fell.
- "and death through sin" ... God does not lie, what would be the point? Whose "judgement" would God be hoping to escape? Could a GOD that speaks and the very act of saying it makes it so (let there be ... and there was) be capable of lying? Would God saying it not instantly make it TRUTH?
- God told Adam "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." ... not just "shall die" but "shall SURELY die". God does not just say it will happen, God GUARANTEES that it will happen!
- Therefore (my turn
), when Adam DID sin, DEATH did enter just as God guaranteed that it would.
- "and so death spread to all men" ... Just a fact, jack. barring being snatched like Enoch or in a Chariot of Fire ... everyone just DIES.
- First, the easy part. Physical death comes to all. It is a consequence of Adam's sin and God's curse and it is our "birthright" when we enter a fallen world. Physical death DID spread to all men.
- If that were only all of it! we are "conceived in sin" and "brought forth in iniquity" (not just David). Our flesh does not have our best interests at heart. Our mind dous not have our best interests at heart. Our 'idol factory' soul does not have our best interests at heart. Worse than the physical death that awaits us, we are born into a prison of spiritual death. As Paul cries out "Who will deliver me from this body of sin and death?" ... these chains that enslave us to sin (spiritual death).
- "because all sinned" ... Finally, some good news! We can stop worrying about any perceived unfairness in OUR being guilty for ADAM's sin (just because Adam represented all "humanity" and we are part of humanity). WE all live up to our full potential and achieve the sins of Adam (rebellion against God) completely on our own ... far exceeding the actions of Adam in EVIL and earning our damnation far more surely that even Adam earned his damnation.
- We all achieve PERSONAL GUILT (with only a little encouragement from our fallen nature).
- Let's be honest, how hard does your EYE really have to work to MAKE you LUST and commit adultery in your heart? How hard does your flesh really have to push you to be angry at the driver that changed lanes too close to you and MAKE you angry (murder in your heart). If we are honest, not very. We are a fairly willing victim.
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GodsGrace
Well-known member
OK. Let's go through them...from your post no. 49:
Please understand the doctrine as properly stated does NOT state "man cannot seek God."
In Calvinism, the statement of total depravity states that man is so depraved that he is unable to seek God.
This is what it states.
All Christians believe man is depraved...this is what the sin nature is about.
ONLY Calvinism teaches that man is so depraved that God must decree his every move...this being so, it teaches that man is unable to seek God and thus it is God that must choose who to save and who to damn.
It states man cannot seek God on his own initiative in his own righteous desires apart from a preceding work of the undeserved grace of God.
You say ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE....
Let's clarify what you mean by that.
Those are two distinctly different statements.
atpollard
Well-known member
You are still not clear in your response to what is being asked, so let me be EXPLICIT.
Is this part ...
- “No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY]"
[I will allow you to respond to this before moving on to the next part].
I propose to go through the verse item by item and examine each item in order, so that YOU might have an opportunity to support your LIES and I might have an opportunity to defend my EXEGESIS.
Johann
Well-known member
One Verse Does Not Doctrine Make?"
While it’s true that sound doctrine should be built on the broader testimony of Scripture, a single verse can carry significant theological weight when it aligns with the consistent teaching of the Bible. John 6:44 ("No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him") is not an isolated statement but part of a larger biblical narrative about human inability and divine initiative.
Other passages corroborate this idea:
Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
Ephesians 2:1-5: Humans are "dead in trespasses and sins," incapable of spiritual life apart from God’s intervention.
1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them."
These verses, among others, form a cumulative case that human beings, in their natural state, lack the ability to seek God without divine enablement. Thus, John 6:44 is not a standalone proof-text but part of a broader scriptural pattern.
On your Accusation of Eisegesis and Calvinist Bias
Eisegesis implies imposing a preconceived interpretation on the text. However, the interpretation of John 6:44 as indicating human inability aligns with the plain reading of the verse in its context. Jesus states unequivocally that "no one can come" (Greek: dynamai, indicating ability) unless the Father draws them. The emphasis is on divine action as a prerequisite for human response.
The context of John 6 reinforces this:
In John 6:37, Jesus says, "All that the Father gives me will come to me," indicating divine election precedes human faith.
In John 6:65, Jesus reiterates, "No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father," doubling down on the necessity of divine initiative.
This interpretation does not require a Calvinist lens-what I keep on telling you- it emerges from the text itself.
Non-Calvinist scholars, such as Arminians, may disagree on the implications (e.g., whether the drawing is resistible), but the verse’s assertion of human inability apart from divine action is difficult to dispute without altering its clear meaning.
If you believes this is eisegesis, YOU must demonstrate how the text supports an alternative reading (e.g., that humans can seek God independently) without imposing your own assumptions.
Establishing That Man Is Unable to Seek God
The Bible consistently portrays humanity as spiritually incapacitated due to sin, unable to seek God without divine intervention.
Romans 3:11: "No one seeks for God." This categorical statement, rooted in Psalm 14:1-3, describes the universal condition of fallen humanity. The Greek (ekzēteō) implies a deliberate seeking, which Paul says no one does naturally.
Ephesians 2:1-3: Humans are "dead" in sin, following the "course of this world" and their own desires. Spiritual death implies an inability to initiate a relationship with God, akin to a corpse’s inability to act.
John 8:34, 43-44: Jesus describes unbelievers as slaves to sin, unable to hear or understand His words because of their spiritual condition.
Colossians 1:21: Before reconciliation, humans are "alienated and hostile in mind," indicating a natural enmity toward God.
These passages collectively show that sin has so corrupted human nature that people are unwilling and unable to seek God apart from His grace. The "drawing" in John 6:44 (Greek: helkyō, to draw or drag) suggests a divine act that overcomes this inability, as seen elsewhere (e.g., Jeremiah 31:3, where God draws with lovingkindness). NOT by FORCE as you accuse me of.
If humans could seek God independently, it would imply some inherent goodness or ability unaffected by the Fall, contradicting the doctrine of total depravity (supported by Genesis 6:5, Jeremiah 17:9).
Even Arminian theology, which emphasizes free will, typically acknowledges prevenient grace—a divine enablement—as necessary for humans to respond to God.
Your assertion demands proof of human inability but offers no counter evidence that humans can seek God without divine aid.
To refute the claim, you- the accuser should provide:
Scriptural examples of unregenerate people seeking God without prior divine intervention.
A contextual explanation of John 6:44 that negates the necessity of divine drawing.
Passages sometimes cited to argue human ability (e.g., "Seek and you will find," Matthew 7:7) are addressed to those already responding to God’s initiative or within the covenant community, not to unregenerate humanity at large.
That said-your assertion that "one verse does not doctrine make" is a weak critique when John 6:44 is supported by a robust biblical framework.Your accusation of eisegesis fails, as the interpretation of human inability flows naturally from the text and its context.
The challenge to establish that man is unable to seek God is met with clear scriptural evidence (Romans 3:11, Ephesians 2:1, etc.), showing that humans, apart from divine grace, are spiritually dead and incapable of seeking God. The burden now lies with YOU to provide scriptural evidence to the contrary.
Thanks.
J.
civic
Well-known member
Taking down the Calvinist Strawman on Free Will.
How often have I read in various Facebook theological discussions the declaration of a Calvinist – “Freewill is not taught in Scriptures”? Of course, the freedom of will to go against one’s nature, even for God, is not possible. It is impossible for God to lie or to deny Himself (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18, 2 Tim 2:13). And it is impossible for me to fly by just flapping my arms. But the ability to freely make decisions commensurate with the limits of one’s nature and with the opportunities provided for such decision making is logically part of God’s and man’s nature and experience. The exercise of that ability by God and by man is also well documented in Scripture. And I can fly… if I decide to get on an airplane and allow its power to transport me through the air!
The following is an attempt at a rather thorough study of words used in the OT and NT that teach aspects and examples of the exercise of freewill. The reader will hopefully become convinced, contrary to Calvinistic dramatic false statements in opposition, that freewill is clearly taught in the Scriptures –
The Hebrew word [verb] נדב naw-dab’ is a primitive root that means – to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously…primarily translated as an adverb “willingly” which indicates free motivation or voluntary decision. It is used 17 times in 15 verses throughout OT Scripture [also 3 times in 3 verses using the same root in Aramaic – Ezra 7:13, 15, 16]. (Most of definitions for this paper are adapted from Strong’s Concordance lexical definitions.)
Here are all the verses that translate this word, נדב naw-dab’, with the translation of it underlined. The ESV translation for each verse was chosen to accommodate Calvinist readers, so they won’t have to keep running back to their favorite translation, which is deterministically flavored.
Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contribution for me.
Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spirit moved him….
Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD.
Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselves willingly, bless the LORD!
Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levites in my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.
—-[The verbal form in this last verse is a participle, on the Hithpael stem, which is reflexive in meaning, thus the word “themselves” should be added. This Hithpael verbal stem is used 17 times in the same reflexive way – Jg 5:2, 9; 1Ch 29:5, 6, 9(2x), 14, 17(2x); 2Ch 17:16; Ezr 1:6, 2:68, 3:5, 7:13, 15, 16; Neh 11:2]. The reflexive action only helps to emphasize the non-compulsory action of the person’s will in the decision made in each context—-
The noun נדבה ned-aw-baw’ is used 26 times in 25 verses, mostly in connection with a voluntary – “freewill” – offering to God. With all these verses one cannot help but ask “How can you have a freewill offering without a freewill?” Calvinists reject its normal meaning, but the Bible literally uses the word 26 times. Even the Calvinist translators of the KJV and ESV freely chose “freewill” as a suitable translation. Their translation choice is telling of what they believed this original word meant.
Here are the verses in which this noun is used:
Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them to bring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it as a freewill offering to the LORD. —-[The idea in this verse of a sacrifice made as a free-will offering, one not commanded as an obligation, is also found in – Ex 36:3; Le 7:16, 22:18, 21, 23, 23:38; Nu 15:3; 29:39; De 12:6, 17; 16:10; 2Ch 31:14; Ezr 1:4, 3:5, 8:28; Ps 54:6, 119:108; Eze 46:12(2x); Am 4:5]
Deut 23:23 ESV You shall be careful to do what has passed your lips, for you have voluntarily vowed to the LORD your God what you have promised with your mouth.
2Ch 35:8 ESV And his officials contributed willingly to the people, to the priests, and to the Levites….
Ps 68:9 ESV Rain in abundance, O God, you shed abroad; you restored your inheritance as it languished;
Ps 110:3 ESV Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holy garments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.
Hos 14:4 ESV I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned from them.
—All these OT verses clearly confirm that man, even an unregenerate man, can exercise a free-will in a manner pleasing to God. Even God is said to exercise His freewill in Hos 14:4. The translation in Ps 68:9 was obviously determined with some subjectivity. It could easily be translated – “A shower of freewill gifts, O God, you have shed abroad…”
Here are some NT words and verses to consider that also speak to the issue of the freedom of the will. A Calvinist may try to attribute all of the following examples as a result of regeneration, but that does not seem to fit this first example –
Acts 17:11-12 ESV Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.
—-[from προθυμια proth-oo-mee’-ah, meaning predisposition. See also – 2Co 8:11, 12, 19, 9:2;] The Calvinist may endeavor to suggest this willing predisposition of the Bereans was a result of regeneration, which they think is before faith is expressed. It is very difficult to convince them otherwise when their loyalty to Calvinism is so strong that they refuse to see the gospel of John clearly teaches light is freely received before faith which is before new birth life is given. See John 1:4-13, 12:35-36, 20:30-31.
Other NT verses to consider that speak to the issue of freewill are these –
1Cor 7:37 ESV But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well. —-from μη ἔχων ἀνάγκην , literally – “not having a necessity”, which would be impossible if everything was predetermined eternally and immutably, making every event a necessary result of God’s decree. Notice also the verse says this man “having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart.”
1Cor 9:17 ESV For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. —- from εχων hek-own’ meaning willingly.
2Cor 8:3 ESV For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, and 2Cor 8:17 ESV For he not only accepted our appeal, but being himself very earnest he is going to you of his own accord. —-from αυθαιρετος ow-thah’-ee-ret-os – meaning self-chosen, and by implication – voluntary.
2Cor 9:7 ESV Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. —- from προαιρεομαι pro-ahee-reh’-om-ahee – meaning to choose for oneself before another thing, to prefer and by implication, to intend.
Phlm 1:14 ESV but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. —- from εκουσιος hek-oo’-see-on – meaning willingness.
1Pet 5:2 ESV shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; —-from εκουσιον hek-oo-see’-ose – meaning willingly.
The existence of a free will, even post regeneration, runs counter to the idea of an eternally immutable divine will that had completely determined everything forever into the future before creation began. Calvinism is based upon that philosophical premise, making the exercise of any free-will for God or man impossible, before creation and especially after it. That premise makes a falsehood out of these clear Scriptures shared here. These Scriptures and many others clearly show that free will does exist and is being exercised by God and man.Wagner
hope this helps !!!
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