FOUR reasons I believe in the sinful nature. (original sin/ancestral sin/total depravity)

[Dizerner]

You may need professional help. I mean it.

But many times it seems you don’t trust in his promises to change you.

Your slander and false accusations do not faze me.

I've done my duty in regards to warning you that you take sin too lightly.

The secular world will always encourage and belittle sin, and I will not entrust my soul to a brood of vipers.

"Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
"Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
(Matt. 3:7-8 NKJ)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Your slander and false accusations do not faze me.

You are the one accusing yourself from the opening post.
You accuse yourself of being evil.
God tells you today through Bahá’u’lláh: “Noble I created thee”

I've done my duty in regards to warning you that you take sin too lightly.

Your duty is to shine, so that we can see your light and glorify The Father.
So just shine, my brother… shine!

The secular world will always encourage and belittle sin, and I will not entrust my soul to a brood of vipers.

You entrust your soul to a brood of vipers when you pay heed to their accusation: “You are worthless”.
God is telling you today: You, Dizerner, are my beloved son. I created you noble. Rise up to that for which you were created.

"Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
"Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
(Matt. 3:7-8 NKJ)

What are the fruits worthy of repentance? love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness…
Yet you are putting in bold the words “wrath to come”. You seem to be obsessed with God’s wrath, and trapped in fear. Why is that, Dizerner?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Just for the record.

The correct answer is "Because he took upon himself your sin and bore its punishment."

And yet you keep punishing yourself, as if you didn’t believe what you preach.
Shine! Smile! Dance!
You are worthy, worthy, worthy! So worthy, that the Shepherd was willing to leave his other 99 sheep to go after you… after YOU, Dizerner!
He has found you. He has taken you in his arms and put you over his shoulders. He is taking you back to the flock. He is happy. He’s throwing a party for you. Just for you.

 

[TomL]

Make the case for it being spiritual. I have given you information that is contrary to what you believe. I did this for a reason. These types of questions are not just yes or no questions. The spirit of Adam did not change when he sinned. He did NOT have immortal life in spirit nor flesh.

It is a question.

Adam would die

It either has to be physical or spiritual

Are you denying he would face death in any manner?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Actually, as shown, it does not.



PS thou shall not eat of it does nothing at all to show Adam was a sinner before he ate.

The Law shows us we are sinners. This is elementary.
There is no difference between the Law of God and a Command of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7: 8–12.

By God commanding "thou shalt not eat of it (the Tree)," shows that Adam and the woman were sinners just as Saul explains above in Romans.

Adam and the woman were created sinful, that is, "missing the mark" (which is the definition of sin according to Strong.) What is the "mark" that these two "missed"?
The glory of God. They were created fallen short of the glory of God.
And although they were created sinful, their sin did not revive until God said, "Thou shalt not eat of it (the Tree.)"
Adam and the woman for however long before the test of the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil came to be lived a blissful life knowing only "good" because there was no restriction that would prove they were sinful. All God was doing was giving the man and woman the KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness. When the Command came, sin revived in them, and they died. They died because they were created sinful and with the command came their KNOWLEDGE of their sinfulness.

THAT'S how the test went. God used the Tree to show them they were sinful. And even if there was no test, in time - maybe 900 years they would have eventually died because they were not created eternal. In this alone shows they fallen short of the glory of God because they were not eternal.
The comparison is Christ, the last Adam. He was sinless, He was Holy, He was Righteous, nor was guile found in His mouth. And being EQUAL to God He could stand before a Holy God blameless.
But not the man or the woman. They were not eternal. Example: Jesus Christ could possess ALL the Attributes of Deity and be able to stand before God blameless. But if Jesus Christ was not eternal, then by that one lack He would be judged as being fallen short of the glory of God.
It's not hard to understand.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is scripture

Scripture makes it clear he does cause all that happens

James 1:13–14 (LEB) — 13 No one who is being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires.

1 John 2:16 (LEB) — 16 because everything that is in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the arrogance of material possessions—is not from the Father, but is from the world.

Jeremiah 32:35 (LEB) — 35 And they built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to present as offerings their sons and their daughters to Molech, which I had not commanded them, and it had not come to my mind to do this detestable thing in order to cause Judah to sin.”

Isaiah 30:1 (LEB) — 1 “Oh rebellious children!” declares Yahweh, “to make a plan, but not from me, and pour out a libation, but not from my Spirit, so as to add sin to sin.

Galatians 5:7–8 (LEB) — 7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from the one who calls you!

1 Corinthians 10:13 (LEB) — 13 Temptation has not come upon you except what is common to humanity. But God is faithful, who will not permit you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will also make a way out together with the temptation, so that you may be able to endure it.

I do not see where you have addressed it


God does not cause everything that happens, and sovereignty does not necessitate micromanagement.

All God did was create a sinful man and woman, wind their clock and let it tick on its own.
Scripture says the angels that sinned are locked up until judgment day. Man doesn't need anyone to help him sin. Man's sin comes from being a sinner. God doesn't have to micromanage. But He has stepped in at opportune times in the history of His covenant people to carry them along, for without His intervening Israel as a people would be wiped out.
And so there will come a day in which Gentiles are attacking Israel and have taken half the city. But then the heavens open and Christ comes down to fight alongside Israel as their King and He destroys Israel's enemies, God's enemies, His enemies, and when all guns and bombs have fallen silent, then comes His ruling the Gentile nations that remain with a rod of iron.
God has covenant with Abraham and with Abraham's seed. God is obligated to deliver His people. He is not going to sit back and watch their annihilation. He's going to get involved because He still has many promises yet to fulfill.
Even on a personal level. There might be Christian couple in a car, and they get hit by an oncoming car. What's the result? Death? Life? Isn't God obligated through covenant to either do something that would ensure their survival, of He can take them both home. Or one of them. Or they both survive. And if they survive who will they thank? The car manufacturer for seat belts? God for His saving their lives. You figure it out. I have.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I was hoping you would expose more of your closet Catholicism and how you merged it with your Ethnic Cleansing mindset. That could have explained events like the Inquisition.

Don't be shy to tell us how your closet Catholicism includes Catholics in with the OT Covenants. How is that possible?? Oh oh I know, I know. They all have some Jewish ancestry, however small in their DNA. See I'm learning all these wacky theories from you.

God has covenant with Abram the Hebrew.
And God has covenant with Abram's seed.
Israel are His Chosen people. Israel is His Church and His Bride.
When Christ returns, He comes back when Israel is near total destruction by Gentile nations.
He will not allow Israel to be decimated. He will return to fight alongside Israel and He will destroy ALL the Gentile nations that come against the apple of His eye. He will protect His Bride.

I find no covenant like this one with Gentiles. Gentiles do not have covenant with God. They got nothing coming to them of God and do you know why?

Because God has NO COVENANT with Gentiles.

And when it is time to give Abraham His land, guess who's going to populate THEIR Promised Land?

Abraham and His seed. God never promised Gentiles any land. Whatever land Gentiles presently have is stolen. And they refuse to give God His due for even having land in the first place. Not to mention food.
There is only ONE Christian nation on the planet and that nation is Israel.

 

[TomL]

All God did was create a sinful man and woman, wind their clock and let it tick on its own.
Scripture says the angels that sinned are locked up until judgment day. Man doesn't need anyone to help him sin. Man's sin comes from being a sinner. God doesn't have to micromanage. But He has stepped in at opportune times in the history of His covenant people to carry them along, for without His intervening Israel as a people would be wiped out.
And so there will come a day in which Gentiles are attacking Israel and have taken half the city. But then the heavens open and Christ comes down to fight alongside Israel as their King and He destroys Israel's enemies, God's enemies, His enemies, and when all guns and bombs have fallen silent, then comes His ruling the Gentile nations that remain with a rod of iron.
God has covenant with Abraham and with Abraham's seed. God is obligated to deliver His people. He is not going to sit back and watch their annihilation. He's going to get involved because He still has many promises yet to fulfill.
Even on a personal level. There might be Christian couple in a car, and they get hit by an oncoming car. What's the result? Death? Life? Isn't God obligated through covenant to either do something that would ensure their survival, of He can take them both home. Or one of them. Or they both survive. And if they survive who will they thank? The car manufacturer for seat belts? God for His saving their lives. You figure it out. I have.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.

There is no evidence God created sinful man

Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

Rather it teaches sin entered the world through the sin of Adam

Romans 5:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And the gift is not as through the one who sinned, for on the one hand, judgment from the one sin led to condemnation, but the gift, from many trespasses, led to justification. 17 For if by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.

Nowhere do we read God created man sinful

 

[TomL]

The Law shows us we are sinners. This is elementary.
There is no difference between the Law of God and a Command of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7: 8–12.

By God commanding "thou shalt not eat of it (the Tree)," shows that Adam and the woman were sinners just as Saul explains above in Romans.

No, it does not.

It is only by breaking the commandment did they become sinners. Only when man's desire leads him into breaking a commandment is he a sinner

James 1:14–15 (LEB) — 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then desire, after it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is brought to completion, gives birth to death.

 

[jeremiah1five]

There is no evidence God created sinful man

Romans 5:12 (LEB) — 12 Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned.

It doesn't say, "through THE ACT of one man" does it? No, it says "through one man." if "the act of" one man is not mentioned then it is safe to understand it merely by the PRESENCE of one man. A sinful man.

Rather it teaches sin entered the world through the sin of Adam

Romans 5:16–17 (LEB) — 16 And the gift is not as through the one who sinned, for on the one hand, judgment from the one sin led to condemnation, but the gift, from many trespasses, led to justification. 17 For if by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ.

Nowhere do we read God created man sinful

Trespass and transgression always refer to the Law (or command) of God.

And yes, to kick off the Plan of God it was necessary to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness. That was the purpose of the Tree.

Let's say Adam was created sinless, an attribute of God. To remain sinless God would have to create man with ALL the other God Attributes such as eternalness, omniscience, omnipotent, all-wise, all knowing, all the attributes that Jesus possessed to remain blameless before God. And if God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against, then that one man would have been as the last Adam and not sinned. BUT he did sin. And sin comes from sinner. It doesn't miraculously come out of thin air. A sinful man sins. A Holy Man (Jesus) doesn't. And that other belief that Adam was "innocent." What a crock. The fact that there is a "thou shalt not" proved this "innocent" man was a sinner still and will sin because the command of God specifically told him to not eat of the Tree. He didn't become a sinner by the act of sin/disobedience. If this was the case, then this belief (Adam was innocent) makes the Doctrine of Imputation incomprehensive. It changes the reality of BE-ing sinful into the act of sin which makes one sinful. This changes the Doctrine of Imputation to becoming "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" to read "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him" thus leaving the sinful nature intact in the man.

If merely performing an act of sin is what makes us a sinner, then Christ died so that we have the righteous acts of God as our excuse. But that's not the Doctrine of Imputation. The Doctrine of Imputation is a nature-swap. Christ takes our sinful nature, and we take Christ's sinless nature, not acts of sin to be given righteous acts because that leaves the sin nature intact.
You have to decide which it true:

We are sinners because we sin, or
We sin because we are sinners.

 

[jeremiah1five]

No, it does not.

It is only by breaking the commandment did they become sinners. Only when man's desire leads him into breaking a commandment is he a sinner

James 1:14–15 (LEB) — 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires. 15 Then desire, after it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when it is brought to completion, gives birth to death.

So, you believe it is the acts of sin that make us sinners. I don't. I believe what the bible teaches in that we sin because we are sinners.
We are NOT sinners because we sin. That belief destroys the Doctrine of Imputation for it exchanges our acts of sin under the Doctrine of Imputation so that Christ takes our acts of sin, and we receive His righteous acts. This leaves the sin nature intact.

The Doctrine of Imputation is a nature-swap.
Christ takes our sin nature, and we receive His righteous nature. One for one. Tit for tat.

It is not our acts of sin that make us sinners. We are not sinners because we sin, rather we sin because we are sinners.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It is a question.

Adam would die

It either has to be physical or spiritual

Are you denying he would face death in any manner?

Again. It is not a yes or no question. Nor is it a simple question to answer given your and others propensity to prefer a specific narrative you believe is true.

Adam's dead right? Did His spirit cease to exist?

Our body slowly dies around us yet our spirit lingers on in fullness of life. Now there are things that cause our spirit to rot away. That is a good conversation to have but have you really given such things much thought? I've meet few that do.

You don't think like I think. You don't see what I see. I once thought and saw what you see but it was an empty set of nonsense driven by ego and power. Just like PCE..... PCE "backdoors" meriting God Grace in the "necessity" of suffering for some fleeting sense of "justice".

Why do you believe Adam lost something in death? He didn't. He suffered in death and in that process gained so much more. Can you think of anyone else that did similar?

What right did Adam have to Eternal Life when he was taken from the earth and became flesh?

 

[praise_yeshua]

And yet you keep punishing yourself, as if you didn’t believe what you preach.
Shine! Smile! Dance!
You are worthy, worthy, worthy! So worthy, that the Shepherd was willing to leave his other 99 sheep to go after you… after YOU, Dizerner!
He has found you. He has taken you in his arms and put you over his shoulders. He is taking you back to the flock. He is happy. He’s throwing a party for you. Just for you.

Your problem is MUCH worse. You pretend there is not a single meritorious action that can be taken to merit Eternal Life. That such is simply gifted to all regardless of character or desire.

You desire evil things. It shows in every word you preach against the meritorious work of Jesus Christ.

Your damnation is Just.

 

[synergy]

So, you believe it is the acts of sin that make us sinners. I don't. I believe what the bible teaches in that we sin because we are sinners.
We are NOT sinners because we sin. That belief destroys the Doctrine of Imputation for it exchanges our acts of sin under the Doctrine of Imputation so that Christ takes our acts of sin, and we receive His righteous acts. This leaves the sin nature intact.

The Doctrine of Imputation is a nature-swap.
Christ takes our sin nature, and we receive His righteous nature. One for one. Tit for tat.

It is not our acts of sin that make us sinners. We are not sinners because we sin, rather we sin because we are sinners.

You're projecting your own particular situation to everyone else. Just because you've adopted an sinful dark spirit that revels in Ethnic Cleansing raptures, that does not mean that everyone has done the same. Break free of that Ethnic Cleansing dark spirit and you'll be very thankful you did.

 

[TedT]

I know you believe this but I certainly would like to know why......... "reincarnation"? The idea that the soul comes from an preexistent state?

There is no "re-" in our physical incarnation in the PCE theology...I accept that we are sown into our bodies by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:36-39, only one time. That some people claim they have been in more than one body is immaterial to me as Hebrews 9:27 tells me that there is no redemptive effect nor spiritual growth to be found in living more than once.

You say there is no sin relative to birth yet insist "conception" is proof of sinfulness.

How can you sincerely make this contradictory statement?

Because it is not contradictory. I contend that neither birth nor conception cause sinfulness which I thought you agreed with, sorry. Everyone is a sinner at conception and birth because only sinners are sent to earth to be conceived / born as human.

I accept the doctrine that DEATH IS THE WAGES FOR SIN which means death is NOT a condition of ordinary life but of sinfulness, leading to accepting that only sinners die. Therefore since infants of every age die, their conception or birth are corollaries to death, not the cause of death.* This means that though I contend they are sinners at conception, I deny that they are sinners by GOD's will and by HIS placing them in Adam but are sinners due to their pre-earthly life free will decision to rebel against GOD's call.

*Sin is in fact the cause of their conception and birth as only sinners were said to be flung into this world, Rev. 12:4-9.

Death is the wages of sin.
Only sinners die.
Infants in the womb die.
Therefore infants in the womb are sinners.

I reject the contention that our being created human somehow makes us liable to sin and death because I accept wholeheartedly that GOD IS HOLY, ie HE doesn't sin nor create evil by any means, even by the means of the surrogate, Adam. Our creation must have been perfect with no hint of sin or evil or God is not holy but we die in the womb so we are sinners after our conception which must have been caused by our free will choice to rebel against HIM before our conception! The logic is not contradictory though it does contradict previous theologies about our creation and our fall.

Evil is ONLY caused by the person's free will decision to rebel against GOD's call or command.
Death proves sinfulness.
Infants die in the womb, proving their sinfulness.
GOD cannot create evil people.
Therefore their sin was not caused by their creation as human.
Therefore their choice to become evil in HIS sight happened previously to their being conceived as human.
No contradiction.

 

[TedT]

I agree.

Sounds like Mormonism. I debated mormonism with a Mormon over a decade ago. I remember something about Origen believing in the prexistance of people and his writings were unceremoniously tossed out the window mainly because of that heresy.

It is not Mormonism...and Origen was a heretic for his awful Christology, not his belief in our pre-conception existence.

When I first was taught about our pre-conception existence (pce) I too wondered if it was the Mormon concept so I asked a Mormon I knew who called in three elders to discuss our definitions and theology and they all decided that we were seriously UnMormon, and anathematized us (cursed us) for being idolaters following a demonic spirit. We said thank you for helping us to find this distinction between us and sent them off, shaking their feet.

PCE is an ancient concept as old as the theory of our being created on earth at our conception, taught in rabbinic literature and can be seen to be in the Bible, both the protestant bible and expressly in the Catholic bible though Christianity as a whole denies this interpretation of what is written in favour of the current favorite theory that we are created on earth...as sinners....contrary to GOD's attribute of perfect holiness, ie, HE cannot create evil by any means, even by means of a surrogqate.

Judaism
In rabbinic literature, the souls of all humanity are described as being created during the six days of creation (Book of Genesis). When each person is born, a preexisting soul is placed within the body. (See Tan., Pekude, 3). Tan., Pekude, 3: http://tinyurl.com/cnpetph

This was loooong before Origen who invented nothing.

Bible: [including 3 verses out of 3 dozen verses available]
For example, in Jeremiah 1:5 we read, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." which Origen also quoted in his explanation of HIS pce pov.

But Origen claimed his strongest impulse to accept PCE theology arose from his study of Romans 9:11-14
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Origen argued that God could not love Jacob and hate Esau until Jacob had done something worthy of love and Esau had done something worthy of hatred, therefore, this passage must mean that Jacob and Esau who had not yet done good or evil in this life that their conduct before this life was the reason why Esau would serve Jacob. He rejected the position that God loves or hates a soul based on its inclination toward good or evil, before the soul actually commits a good or evil act.

A look at his trial some hundreds of years after his death proves that most of his being condemned was due to the politics of the day, not his theology.

Jn 9:1-3 The question Christ's disciples asked about the man born blind, suggests that they believed in the pre-existence of the man's spirit / soul.
1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.
How does it make sense that the disciples ask if the man was born blind due to his own sin, if they did not believe in the pre-existence of the spirit/person able to sin before their (supposed) creation on earth? Notice Jesus did not chastise them for making an error about our creation but only about the reason for his suffering nor did He correct them!

Catholicism:
The Wisdom of Solomon 8:20 As a child, I was born to excellence and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body ......
or
I was a boy of happy disposition. I had received a good soul as my lot, or that, being good, I had entered an undefiled body.
pretty straight forward unless you are a 'created on earth' believing Catholic or a Protestant denying that the Wisdom of Solomon is scripture...but it does prove that PCE was believed looong before Joseph Smith added it into his absurd theology.

 

[TedT]

He did say they "cursed him". Seems there is some connection he isn't willing to admit.

Yes, my connection to them is that they rejected my PCE as being anti-Mormon. which I said at the time you refer to...interesting that you missed that part, sigh.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, my connection to them is that they rejected my PCE as being anti-Mormon. which I said at the time you refer to...interesting that you missed that part, sigh.

I didn't miss anything. You saying they "cursed me" is more intimate than just "they don't like PCE".....

Your choice of words is meaningful.

 

[praise_yeshua]

There is no "re-" in our physical incarnation in the PCE theology...I accept that we are sown into our bodies by the Son of Man or the devil, Matt 13:36-39, only one time. That some people claim they have been in more than one body is immaterial to me as Hebrews 9:27 tells me that there is no redemptive effect nor spiritual growth to be found in living more than once.

Sown? Describe "sown"?

Conception in the joining of two seeds in the male and female established both the spirit and flesh of a human being.

Because it is not contradictory. I contend that neither birth nor conception cause sinfulness which I thought you agreed with, sorry. Everyone is a sinner at conception and birth because only sinners are sent to earth to be conceived / born as human.

You're obviously mixing paganism with Christian theology.

I accept the doctrine that DEATH IS THE WAGES FOR SIN which means death is NOT a condition of ordinary life but of sinfulness, leading to accepting that only sinners die. Therefore since infants of every age die, their conception or birth are corollaries to death, not the cause of death.* This means that though I contend they are sinners at conception, I deny that they are sinners by GOD's will and by HIS placing them in Adam but are sinners due to their pre-earthly life free will decision to rebel against GOD's call.

I get it. Punishment of sinners is God's pleasure. He loves it so much that He just keeps doing it over and over throughout Eternity.

*Sin is in fact the cause of their conception and birth as only sinners were said to be flung into this world, Rev. 12:4-9.

Death is the wages of sin.
Only sinners die.
Infants in the womb die.
Therefore infants in the womb are sinners.

How precious...... I thought the "fruit of the womb" was God's reward?

I reject the contention that our being created human somehow makes us liable to sin and death because I accept wholeheartedly that GOD IS HOLY, ie HE doesn't sin nor create evil by any means, even by the means of the surrogate, Adam. Our creation must have been perfect with no hint of sin or evil or God is not holy but we die in the womb so we are sinners after our conception which must have been caused by our free will choice to rebel against HIM before our conception! The logic is not contradictory though it does contradict previous theologies about our creation and our fall.

God takes time to create things. Especially the actions He takes to win over the willingness of His creation. Your position is overly simplistic.

Evil is ONLY caused by the person's free will decision to rebel against GOD's call or command.
Death proves sinfulness.
Infants die in the womb, proving their sinfulness.

How does these "sinners" implanted into the womb exercise freedom of will?

This life is full of victims. Some more so than others. Knowledge is required to not become a victim. Men exercise power of birth and death. Cain murdered his brother because Abel's deeds were good. Death comes to men regardless of personal sin. Paul was very clear about that. Abel didn't sin like Adam. Yet, he certainly was murdered. We don't see death as we should. We all just think of ourselves in such. Death is a limit set by God upon the rebellious nature of man. Such was the law that established the death of lawbreakers.

GOD cannot create evil people.
Therefore their sin was not caused by their creation as human.
Therefore their choice to become evil in HIS sight happened previously to their being conceived as human.
No contradiction.

No. You just actually only moved culpability to an pre-existing form of sentient life that either predates mankind or operates in a corollary path to humanity.

For the life of me, I don't see any Glory due God from your fabricated theology. None.

 

[TomL]

Again. It is not a yes or no question. Nor is it a simple question to answer given your and others propensity to prefer a specific narrative you believe is true.

Adam's dead right? Did His spirit cease to exist?

Our body slowly dies around us yet our spirit lingers on in fullness of life. Now there are things that cause our spirit to rot away. That is a good conversation to have but have you really given such things much thought? I've meet few that do.

You don't think like I think. You don't see what I see. I once thought and saw what you see but it was an empty set of nonsense driven by ego and power. Just like PCE..... PCE "backdoors" meriting God Grace in the "necessity" of suffering for some fleeting sense of "justice".

Why do you believe Adam lost something in death? He didn't. He suffered in death and in that process gained so much more. Can you think of anyone else that did similar?

What right did Adam have to Eternal Life when he was taken from the earth and became flesh?

Spiritual death is separation from God, not a discontinuance of an immaterial existence

God stated Adam would die if he ate of the fruit

you need to present a way in which Adam would die should he eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil