Um the bible does not call Adam a sinner before he ate of the tree
FOUR reasons I believe in the sinful nature. (original sin/ancestral sin/total depravity)
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
Um it states sin entered the world through the man not God's act of creation
and sin was in the world for Adam sinned.
Romans 5:13–14 (NASB95) — 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
and again not because of the act of creation.
The text says that the (sinful) people of the kingdom were sown into this world by the Son of man and the sinful people of the evil one were sown into this world by the devil. Since the devil sows also, this CANNOT refer to our creation!!! Therefore to conclude it is used in its ordinary meaning "to move from a place of storage to a place of growth" is an obvious step except it contradicts the ordinary preconception of our creation.
Since you brought up Sheol as the place of storage, I suggest that Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. Berean Standard Bible gives the clearest hint of this.
That all verses that are hints to pce have been interpreted as something else for centuries means that you can read them and never even see that they might contain a hint to PCE, nor can you find a commentary that accepts our pre-conception existence as a possibility though the best will mention it. Like Ps 9:17 The wicked do turn back / return to Sheol, All nations forgetting God. Going to Sheol is the result of a judgment. The implication is clear. The wicked are punished by being sent to Sheol instead of heaven. The word is translated as return 391 times by the biased KJV, just not here in this verse when something else is needed to uphold convention.
TURN BACK, RETURN TO; Strong’s H7725 shûb - shoob
A primitive root; to turn back
to return, turn back
• to turn back
• to return, come or go back
• to return unto, go back, come back
English Standard Version
The wicked shall RETURN to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
Berean Study Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
New American Standard Bible
The wicked will RETURN to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.
which suggests that return is a completely honest and even proper translation of shûb.
IF the wicked RETURN to Sheol, logic and ordinary use of language indicates that they were there before but left. We have humans coming from Sheol and then returning back to there. We also have Christ telling us that the good seed, the people of the kingdom are sown into the world by the Son of Man and the people of the evil one are sown into the world by the devil, Matt 13:36-39. Where were they before they were sown?? The only reason to distrust this interpretation is that orthodoxy has already declares it means something else and so cannot be a reference hint to our pce. And we got the King James Bible to keep us straight (or to hide the fact of PCE?) about the orthodox interpretation, that is: The wicked shall be turned into sheol, and all the nations that forget God. ignoring to mention it was a return to where they were before.
Now if there were only two or three verses like this, ordinary hermeneutics demands that they be accepted as a witness but what if there were in fact dozens, all suppressed? People generally are not willing to do the work to parse the verses to see if a hint could be hidden in scripture even if I provide them - just too many apples would be spilled!!
Ummm, so sinful people create new sinners, if I got that right. [OR Satan creates new sinners then sends them to earth thru their sinful parents which is a bit too far out and which I doubt you mean.]
So GOD created a system of creating new sinners by making it possible for sinners to create new sinners. This is an inescapable progression of the logic.
Too bad this contradicts the absolute holiness of GOD who can cause no evil by any means.
ImCo, a sinner can only be created by his own free will decision to rebel or repudiate GOD or HIS call / command.
GOD cannot create sinners, nor does HE tempt any to sin.
Satan cannot create sinners, he can only tempt others to sin.
Sinners cannot create sinners, they can only tempt others to sin.
Only a person rebelling against GOD self creates himself as a sinner.
Last edited:
I've heard this before but it implies that there can be no elect sinners under the promise of salvation as to call for an immediate judgment against any sin before their redemption and sanctification as per Heb 12:5-11, would end them in hell.
Berean Standard Bible
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made mankind upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
Schemes: 2810. chishshabon: thought, plan, device;
Is repeating Scripture about what GOD has already said considered to be a revelation? I am reminded of Balaam, son of Beor, and Satan speaking scripture to Christ in the dessert...
I'm glad Bahá’u’lláh had some grasp of scripture but speaking scriptural concepts is not a proof of being in Christ or of holiness.
By cursing us they were saying that we were not only not Mormon but antagonistic to Mormonism at its core. That is, for a person to believe in our PCE would mean destroying any belief in Mormonism...for which we were very glad as our understanding of their fallacies was thereby vindicated.
What "dark" secrets are you hinting at? If you have something to say, spit it out, eh? Hidden innuendo is not the way of the Spirit.
You must have really p*ssed them off for them to react so negatively.
I personally understood PCE as Angelicism, the attempt to transform man into Angels. Just like Angels were created at the beginning of creation, the sane way our souls were created at the same time. Of course there are differences between us and Angels but those are deemphasized but an attempt is made to bring us up to their level of existence. The mythological story of the struggle between satan and Christ patterns itself very closely to when satan rebelled against God. This was my conclusion to myself over a decade ago.
This was my Mormon friend's favorite verse. This verse is nothing more than the fact that God is independent of space and time. If the verse had said something like "you knew me also" then I would agree with you but it doesn't.
The point that these verses are trying to make is that Vocational Election is Unconditional. That point would be totally destroyed if Origen’s remarks are true.
How does it make sense, you ask? The Disciples wanted to know if there's a link between sin and physical misfortune. The Disciples didn't say anything about him sinning pre-birth. You're reading that into the text.
I'm not that well versed into the Wisdom of Soloman.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Yes, my friend.
Key concepts are repeated several times across different sacred texts, centuries and civilizations.
For example, the authors in the New Testament repeated several things already said centuries earlier.
When examining the divine inspiration of a text, skepticism comes from two different fronts:
- If the author is writing something that has been already said, the skeptical protests: "That's nothing new. So it can't be inspired by God"
- On the other hand, if the author is writing something that had not been said before, the skeptical protests: "That's something new. So it's a different Gospel and can't be inspired by God".
Cambridge English dictionary:
sow
to put seeds in or on the ground so that plants will grow:
In the metaphor in these verses, seeds are the sons of the kingdom or the sons of the evil one, that is, they are people sown / sent into mankind when a zygote is formed at conception.
The joining of the male and female gametes create the new body but it is the infusion of the spirit that makes it a person and gives the zygote life. My only distinction to this very ordinary Christian belief is that the spirit cannot have been created at the moment of conception as your traducian system suggests nor at birth as creationism suggests...
because I believe that GOD cannot create evil people and yet infants die in the womb, proving their sinfulness.
A system that suggests that sinners create sinners without that being by GOD's will seems foolish to me, fraught with difficulty.
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made mankind upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” says to me that we were created as innocent and morally perfect, not sinners by sinful parents, and that we contaminated ourselves by choosing sin by our free will, before our being sown, not created, into mankind as sinners.
No one who has enslaved themself to sin has a free will. A free will is restored to a sinner by rebirth into Christ, nothing else. To equate the enslaved will of a sinner to a true free will not under any compulsion or coercion is a contradiction of terms, doublethink at its best.
...which is one of the points that endears me to PCE theology!! In it there is no place to define our sinfulness as relating back to GOD's will in the least as every theology based upon our being created on earth suggests but rather our being in a state of sinfulness proven by our being liable to death, is ONLY due to our own free will rebellion to HIS call or command. Where is the horror in that? Where is the heresy?
I contend that all spirits created in HIS image, ie, able to become a proper Bride for HIM, were created before the foundation of the world with a true free will (uncoerced by any force especially not by GOD's will) and with an equal ability and opportunity to choose to join GOD's Church Family by putting our faith in HIM as our GOD and Saviour OR able to become HIS eternal enemy fit only for destruction by putting our faith in him being a liar and a false god.
True, but he was given a command which is only given to convict sinners, [1 Timothy 1:9 and Romans 3:20] and he is called `erm, naked, which is also used to describe the serpent's superior cunning in evil and he was convicted of his nakedness which he had before he ate and not for his eating...sigh.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
There is that Arminian in you again.
Adam wasn't separated from God. God loved Adam and took care of Adam/Eve and their descendents. God even blessed Cain. Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden. Don't feed me that nonsense claim you're making. You're assuming things without establishing them yourself. Don't assume anything. Prove. If Adam was actually separated from God, then Adam would have died immediately. With God we live move and have our being....
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Sure He did. Yet, that is not a statement of what caused the actual death of Adam. It simply relates a causal effect that brought about the death of Adam. Adam died much later after spending a long and blessed life with God and his family. Adam became an immortal being through the new birth. Adam became something he never was before.....
No I don't. That is your requirement. Not mine.
Adam didn't die when he ate of the tree. We know he didn't. He began to die. Adam would have died much sooner if God wouldn't have taken care of Adam. God sustained Adam.
You need to abandon this "Arminian" you've embraced in your life. It isn't worth being.
Abel never sinned. Not once. This fabrication you've embraced is so full of holes it is worse than thinly sliced swiss cheese.
Again. Adam was never eternal. He was "Spiritually Alive" in the new birth. It really is very simple. Adam needed to be born twice to be in the image of God. The very image of Jesus Christ.
Last edited:
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Yes. Not through birth though. Conception and life is from God alone. Sinners are created in how they are taught.
Pay attention to saints
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
*** (side note)*** notice God speaking of Abraham's CHILDREN. Not just Isaac. All of Abraham's children.
vs sinners....
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
I'm not going to reply to everything you wrote in response to me.
This response has a good question. If I see something worth responding to I will. If you want to discuss this personally. We can.
I would write: the attempt to transform man into Angels as rather, the attempt to recognize that men are spirits created in the image of GOD as are the angels except we are fallen elect spirits and the holy elect spirits become angels which is a job description as messenger, NOT a definition of a race of beings.
The differences between men and angels are found in the fact men are spirits fallen into enslaving sin by our free will rebellion to GOD's call and have been flung into the earth to be sown into mankind for our redemption. We can only come back up to their level of existence by redemption and sanctification by the Holy Spirt.
When we die we go to be with the Lord...Ecc 12:7 ...before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. We know the spirits of the wicked return to Sheol, Ps 9:17, so this verse in Ecc must refer only to HIS sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HIS sinful elect.
So what form do you think we might be in as spirits that return?? We are spirits in our bodies and we are spirits after our bodies die so what kind of heresy is it to think we are spirits before our fall and before our being sown into mankind as sinners?
I have nothing to say about how others misunderstand our relationship with angels as if we were a different race rather than in different jobs and lifestyles.
is only true from the interpretation of Calvinism..not for me. So don't bother throwing unconditional election at me like a stone, my faith is firmly in place.
“Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” How could can he punished for a sin before he was born if he is created at conception?? Born blind for a sin can only mean he existed and chose sin before he was born...
Whey asked who sinned and you say they say nothing was said about him being born blind for being a sinner...weird. How do you parse this if not by just ignoring it?
Nor me...I doubt that it is scripture and only quote it to prove that PCE is NOT a newfangled Mormon ideology.
Then they are innocent until they accept such teaching and as innocent they are not liable to the wages of sin, suffering and death. Unless all the definitions are changed, only sinners die. If innocents do not die then your ideology is proven to be wrong by reality.
