I agree.
Sounds like Mormonism. I debated mormonism with a Mormon over a decade ago. I remember something about Origen believing in the prexistance of people and his writings were unceremoniously tossed out the window mainly because of that heresy.
FOUR reasons I believe in the sinful nature. (original sin/ancestral sin/total depravity)
- Thread starter Dizerner
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
He did say they "cursed him". Seems there is some connection he isn't willing to admit.
It would be hilarious in this day and age if Mormons believe in "curses".
Dizerner
Well-known member
Just for the record.
The correct answer is "Because he took upon himself your sin and bore its punishment."
???????
Matthew 13:36–39 (KJV 1900) — 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
That text says nothing whatsoever about Adam being moved from Sheol and sown into a human body.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Just for the record, Sin didn't kill Jesus. He had to "give up His life". Christ suffered for sin. The just for the unjust.
A willing sacrifice was required. A willing sacrifice is required now.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Just FYI......The seeds of Satan sown are through parents that Satan has already won to himself or deceived.
Yep
Again the passage and the word you post refers to disaster
Isaiah 45:7 (NASB95) — 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Isaiah 45:7 (NIV) — 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (UASV) — 7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (ESV) — 7 I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (LSB) — 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Producing peace and creating calamity; I am Yahweh who does all these.
Isaiah 45:7 (The Modern Language Bible: Berkeley Version) — 7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create calamity; I am the LORD who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NRSV) — 7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (CSB) — 7 I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NKJV) — 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’
Isaiah 45:7 (NABRE) — 7 I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NJB) — 7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NCV) — 7 I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the LORD, do all these things.
You have ignored the multiplicity of translations, context as revealed through previous commentary and selectively appealed to a meaning of your choice
It is a terrible slur upon the character of God to make him the cause of all evil.
Are you perhaps appealing to spiritual death here?
Genesis 2:17 (LEB) — 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.”
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I don't believe Adam was immortal. I don't believe Adam had Eternal life when he was formed. The proof of this in the fact Adam had to eat to sustain his life. Life was given to Adam in the consumption of fruit from the garden before Adam supposedly "fell".
Notice the appeal to the "day" in the verse you referenced above. Notice the absence of any context of an immediate death. Thusly, there is no thought that ties the eating of the fruit from this certain tree to the death of Adam.
The death of Adam involves Eve. There is no separation to be seen between the two. Eve was included in judgement of Adam but she received hope in her condemnation and a promise of redemption through her seed. Not specifically in Adam seed but her seed. It is an appeal to the virgin birth in Jesus Christ.
What people see in these events comes from false teachings involving the context of "original sin" from both Protestants and Catholics alike.
The idea that God would condemn Adam to death in the manner taught would require an immediate judgement of death. Justice requires immediate retribution.
This nonsense that exists in PCE is nothing more than a deception.
So you are speaking of spiritual death?
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus Jesus clearly said they he spoke earthly things to him. Jesus told him that he wouldn't understand heavenly things. Earthly things include spiritual things. Earthly things mimic spiritual things. Eternal life is more than spiritual things to us. To our creation in Adam.
You're looking at this the wrong way and I'm struggling trying to find the right way to communicate these things to you.
Adam did not have the right to Eternal Life without the work of Jesus Christ in suffering in the ashes of flesh for Adam and his descendents. Flesh could not inherit the kingdom of God. Adam was flesh and bone just like us. Some difference physically no doubt existed. Those who rejected God in the old world before the flood caused our bodies that we now have to weaken to a lesser state than before. We are ultimately the descendents of those who continued to sin after the flood. They sinned against their own flesh. Sinned against their descendants. US.
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Dizerner
Well-known member
God doesn't kill innocent people.
The Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Repent before the Judgment.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You believe your sin killed Jesus Christ. That is nothing more than delusions of self worth. I sincerely believe God doesn't need me at all. That everything I have as is comes from his benevolence.
Christ suffered for me and I praise His name.
Yet, If suffering is evil, then you don't understand the willingness of Christ to display His Love.
We suffer for Him right? We suffer for one another right?
I know this is foreign to you but I ask you reconsider what I say. I do care about you. We need each other.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Make the case for it being spiritual. I have given you information that is contrary to what you believe. I did this for a reason. These types of questions are not just yes or no questions. The spirit of Adam did not change when he sinned. He did NOT have immortal life in spirit nor flesh.
Does the spirit of life in Jesus Christ have spiritual immortal life?
Adam was a work in progress. He was planted in the garden in hope of Eternal Life. All of creation has subjected to vanity in Hope of Eternal Life. This involves more than just Adam. Yet, that is exactly what these false teachers want you to focus upon.
He was simply innocent and lacking of understanding he needed. He sinned for Eve. Which is exactly what any of us would have done. It is the very nature of God to suffer for the innocent.
The necessity of a willingness to knowingly choose God free of coercion was something Adam needed to learn. It is what Abraham discovered in patiently waiting on Isaac. All theologies I've ever known have this fatal flaw in understanding. People often sin because they don't know the results of sin. Such can't be instantly gifted. It must be learned. Such takes time and effort. It Gods hope in humanity.
So.. when you want a yes or no question. You are falling into the trap of evil men. Have you ever noticed that you find no "yes or no" retorts in the Scriptures. People use "yes or no" as means of controlling conversations and limiting understanding.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
What is the worth of repentance, if we still feel and speak as if we were defeated and worthless?
If you have been forgiven, your life should be filled with the peace and joy of Christ… and that changes the way you feel, speak and behave!
I encourage you to reflect in your obsession for sin and evil, my brother. You may need professional help. I mean it.
I perceive in your words anxiety, instead of peace. Sorrow, instead of joy.
I’m being sincere in how I perceive you through your posts.
Look: To deny the power of God in making you holy would be equivalent to to declare worthless the sacrifice of Jesus.
So don’t tell us again what Jesus did for you 2000 years ago outside the walls of Jerusalem. We already know it.
Show us instead what Jesus does for you today! Show us the happiness of your resurrected life!
Show us how it feels like and looks like to be seated, today, in heavenly places with Christ!
You claim to trust in God’s Word. But many times it seems you don’t trust in his promises to change you.
If you do not believe you can be healed, and feel and act like a healed person, whats the point of having faith?
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Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
“O Son of Spirit!
Noble have I created thee,
yet thou hast abased thyself.
Rise then unto that
for which thou wast created.”
[Bahá’u’lláh, The Hidden Words)
Noble have I created thee,
yet thou hast abased thyself.
Rise then unto that
for which thou wast created.”
[Bahá’u’lláh, The Hidden Words)
