FOUR reasons I believe in the sinful nature. (original sin/ancestral sin/total depravity)

[TomL]

There is that Arminian in you again.

Adam wasn't separated from God. God loved Adam and took care of Adam/Eve and their descendents. God even blessed Cain. Adam and Eve were removed from the Garden. Don't feed me that nonsense claim you're making. You're assuming things without establishing them yourself. Don't assume anything. Prove. If Adam was actually separated from God, then Adam would have died immediately. With God we live move and have our being....

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

You still have to state how you believe Adam would die. I listed two forms of death. Is there another you can point to?

You denied physical death and spiritual death

What other death do you believe is left.

 

[TomL]

True, but he was given a command which is only given to convict sinners, [1 Timothy 1:9 and Romans 3:20] and he is called `erm, naked, which is also used to describe the serpent's superior cunning in evil and he was convicted of his nakedness which he had before he ate and not for his eating...sigh.

You mean the law. The mosiac law

Christ was born under the law

Galatians 4:4 (LEB) — 4 But when the fullness of time came, God sent out his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,


Are you going to call him a sinner?

 

[jeremiah1five]

You're projecting your own particular situation to everyone else. Just because you've adopted an sinful dark spirit that revels in Ethnic Cleansing raptures, that does not mean that everyone has done the same. Break free of that Ethnic Cleansing dark spirit and you'll be very thankful you did.

The God of Ethnic Cleansing:

The land God Promised Abraham was occupied by Canaanites. God sent Joshua to totally eradicate all the Canaanites in the land and Joshua did exactly that.

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. Genesis 12:6–7.

And after Jesus returns and finally gives Abraham and his seed their Promised Land God Himself cleanses the land of all Canaanites (Gentiles.)

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:
And all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein:
And in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 14:21.

It says "House" for each House represents each tribe of Jacob and the lots of land parceled out to them as recorded in the Pentateuch.

The Chosen people get their land and there are no Gentiles anywhere in this real estate.
Glory to the God of Ethnic Cleansing!
Halellu-JAH!

 

[praise_yeshua]

You still have to state how you believe Adam would die. I listed two forms of death. Is there another you can point to?

I surely did. Adam is dead.... right? Is his bones with us now?

You denied physical death and spiritual death

No. I didn't. Is there more than one appointed death? It is appointed unto man once to die. That is a physical death.

Do you believe there is more than one appointment?

I clearly told you that the spirit of Adam did not change in what you call "original sin". Which isn't original at all. Sin was external to this world. It entered this world. You've said it yourself.

What other death do you believe is left.

I have an appointment with death in the future. You do too. For us, physical death is still real for us. So it is for sinners. So it is for us.

The book of Revelation speaks of a second death. A death solely judged by Jesus Christ.

Why do you believe Adam died a "spiritual death"? Why do you insist such when Adam was never a "heavenly creature"? He was always of the earth. Always.

It is rare that I ever get to ask this but I'll ask you to prove that Adam "spiritually died".

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Consider the necessity of death.

Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

 

[praise_yeshua]

By cursing us they were saying that we were not only not Mormon but antagonistic to Mormonism at its core. That is, for a person to believe in our PCE would mean destroying any belief in Mormonism...for which we were very glad as our understanding of their fallacies was thereby vindicated.

What "dark" secrets are you hinting at? If you have something to say, spit it out, eh? Hidden innuendo is not the way of the Spirit.

I'm not hiding anything. Why should I trust you to be sincere? I don't know you. You don't know me. You said something that still remains rather odd. Maybe you just speak that way. Not sure yet.

PCE is a joke. You don't even understand what Justice is. Everyone wants justice until they apply to themselves. You're obviously no different.

So tell me how you evil ways "crushed the Lord" to the point He almost "fainted".... from the value of your sin.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Um the bible does not call Adam a sinner before he ate of the tree

I've already explained it to you, it does.
The Law shows men they are sinners merely by the existence of a Law against a thing.
Thou shalt not bear false witness.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's ***.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not eat of it (the Tree.)

For in the day thou eatest of it thou shalt SURELY die. Not maybe die, not might have died. Not can possibly die, but thou shalt SURELY die.
Death was already a factor in the Garden before he ate from the Tree. Even if he did not disobey and eat of the Tree he would have died in time. But in eating of the Tree, he was to SURELY die for that act, an act that God used to teach Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Cambridge English dictionary:
sow
to put seeds in or on the ground so that plants will grow:

In the metaphor in these verses, seeds are the sons of the kingdom or the sons of the evil one, that is, they are people sown / sent into mankind when a zygote is formed at conception.

I see a claim without evidence. Mind sharing the evidence that establishes your definition. I don't believe "Cambridge" was trying to define the origins of man.

The joining of the male and female gametes create the new body but it is the infusion of the spirit that makes it a person and gives the zygote life. My only distinction to this very ordinary Christian belief is that the spirit cannot have been created at the moment of conception as your traducian system suggests nor at birth as creationism suggests...
because I believe that GOD cannot create evil people and yet infants die in the womb, proving their sinfulness.

Infants die from defects due the sin of men before us. Also they die from circumstances of evil deeds of others. Your foolishness is offensive.

Pray tell why did you die? Sinner?

Do you preach to others or do you preach to yourself?

A system that suggests that sinners create sinners without that being by GOD's will seems foolish to me, fraught with difficulty.
Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made mankind upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” says to me that we were created as innocent and morally perfect, not sinners by sinful parents, and that we contaminated ourselves by choosing sin by our free will, before our being sown, not created, into mankind as sinners.

Is a cloned animal devoid of a spirit?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I would write: the attempt to transform man into Angels as rather, the attempt to recognize that men are spirits created in the image of GOD as are the angels except we are fallen elect spirits and the holy elect spirits become angels which is a job description as messenger, NOT a definition of a race of beings.

The differences between men and angels are found in the fact men are spirits fallen into enslaving sin by our free will rebellion to GOD's call and have been flung into the earth to be sown into mankind for our redemption. We can only come back up to their level of existence by redemption and sanctification by the Holy Spirt.

When we die we go to be with the Lord...Ecc 12:7 ...before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. We know the spirits of the wicked return to Sheol, Ps 9:17, so this verse in Ecc must refer only to HIS sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HIS sinful elect.

So what form do you think we might be in as spirits that return?? We are spirits in our bodies and we are spirits after our bodies die so what kind of heresy is it to think we are spirits before our fall and before our being sown into mankind as sinners?

I have nothing to say about how others misunderstand our relationship with angels as if we were a different race rather than in different jobs and lifestyles.

Start a thread about the Wisdom of Solomon evidence you see in this and I'll certainly participate. It doesn't say what you believe it says.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then they are innocent until they accept such teaching and as innocent they are not liable to the wages of sin, suffering and death. Unless all the definitions are changed, only sinners die. If innocents do not die then your ideology is proven to be wrong by reality.

Like Jesus?

Are you a "son" just like Jesus?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Um it states sin entered the world through the man not God's act of creation

and sin was in the world for Adam sinned.

Romans 5:13–14 (NASB95) — 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

and again not because of the act of creation.

For until the Law sin was [already] in the world.
But sin is not imputed when there is no Law, which explains why God said nothing about Adam and the woman's lying in their adding to God's Word when they said, "neither shall ye touch it." A clear lie from the pit of hell. But in adding to God's Word there was no "good for food, pleasant to the eyes, and [to be] desired to make one wise," Adding to God's Word did not accomplish that.
Only a shiny apple can accomplish that.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

There's a reason why we must ALL see the same Jesus:

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2.

And is He and how does He appear?
Exactly the same as He is described in Scripture.
This is what separates between the true Christian and the fake that "look for antichrist and receive his number of his name."
The true Christian is taught the truth of Scripture - like I am doing - and the true Christian sees Jesus as He is truly described and taught of in Scripture.

Not only that but we must ALL say the same thing as God. We don't add to His Word, such as adding Gentiles to God's covenants when there is no Scripture that says Gentiles are added to His covenants.

 

[synergy]

The God of Ethnic Cleansing:

The land God Promised Abraham was occupied by Canaanites. God sent Joshua to totally eradicate all the Canaanites in the land and Joshua did exactly that.

6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land.
7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him. Genesis 12:6–7.

And after Jesus returns and finally gives Abraham and his seed their Promised Land God Himself cleanses the land of all Canaanites (Gentiles.)

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts:
And all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein:
And in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
Zechariah 14:21.

It says "House" for each House represents each tribe of Jacob and the lots of land parceled out to them as recorded in the Pentateuch.

The Chosen people get their land and there are no Gentiles anywhere in this real estate.
Glory to the God of Ethnic Cleansing!
Halellu-JAH!

The text says Canaanites, not Gentiles. You deliberately inserted the word Gentiles to satisfy the Ethnic Cleansing delirium of your dark ethnic cleansing spirit. Tell us the name of your dark spirit so that we can start with its exorcism.

 

[TedT]

You mean the law. The mosiac law

Christ was born under the law

No I do not mean the Mosaic law, I refer to the command in Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” which was a law or by eating they would not have been judged unto death nor have had their eyes opened to their nakedness.

 

[TedT]

Like Jesus?

Are you a "son" just like Jesus?

We both know Jesus was a special case since He was divine... I'm talking only about non-divine humans, sinners, as you well know. I wish you'd take this seriously and instead of trying to sneer everything just be normal....

 

[synergy]

I would write: the attempt to transform man into Angels as rather, the attempt to recognize that men are spirits created in the image of GOD as are the angels except we are fallen elect spirits and the holy elect spirits become angels which is a job description as messenger, NOT a definition of a race of beings.

What about the angels that fell when satan rebelled against God? Is that a 3rd classification of beings?

The differences between men and angels are found in the fact men are spirits fallen into enslaving sin by our free will rebellion to GOD's call and have been flung into the earth to be sown into mankind for our redemption. We can only come back up to their level of existence by redemption and sanctification by the Holy Spirt.

When we die we go to be with the Lord...Ecc 12:7 ...before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it. We know the spirits of the wicked return to Sheol, Ps 9:17, so this verse in Ecc must refer only to HIS sheep gone astray into sin, the sinful people of HIS kingdom, HIS sinful elect.

The spirit returns to God Who judges where it is to go. Now Christians go to be with the Lord (Christ).

So what form do you think we might be in as spirits that return?? We are spirits in our bodies and we are spirits after our bodies die so what kind of heresy is it to think we are spirits before our fall and before our being sown into mankind as sinners?

Jesus is our Model. He is still human (soul and flesh) so we will retain our human nature along with our spirit.

is only true from the interpretation of Calvinism..not for me. So don't bother throwing unconditional election at me like a stone, my faith is firmly in place.

Election (the vocational type) is not a calvinist theory. It is Biblical. Read 1 Pet 1:1-2. Origen's remarks would totally destroy the meaning that Paul was trying to get across for Rom 9:11-14.

“Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” How could can he punished for a sin before he was born if he is created at conception?? Born blind for a sin can only mean he existed and chose sin before he was born...

Whey asked who sinned and you say they say nothing was said about him being born blind for being a sinner...weird. How do you parse this if not by just ignoring it?

You are forgetting about God's Foreknowledge. God can see past the blind man's conception and into his future where his current sins reside.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The text says Canaanites, not Gentiles. You deliberately inserted the word Gentiles to satisfy the Ethnic Cleansing delirium of your dark ethnic cleansing spirit. Tell us the name of your dark spirit so that we can start with its exorcism.

Canaanites are non-Hebrew. Another word for that is "Gentile."

 

[praise_yeshua]

We both know Jesus was a special case since He was divine... I'm talking only about non-divine humans, sinners, as you well know. I wish you'd take this seriously and instead of trying to sneer everything just be normal....

I'm being direct and to the point.

So you're good and came into your human body external to the this world? That is what you're saying. Doesn't that make you divine?

I don't believe you understand what you're saying.

 

[TomL]

No I do not mean the Mosaic law, I refer to the command in Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” which was a law or by eating they would not have been judged unto death nor have had their eyes opened to their nakedness.

Would you deny God's law is commanded?

Giving a command or law does not make one a sinner.

There simply is no value in such an argument

 

[Dizerner]

Like Calvinism, Universalism and Pelagianism, I do think PCE can solve our feelings of God committing injustice.

However, we must simply put the Word over and above our own selfish preferences and fallen inclinations.

 

[TomL]

Like Calvinism, Universalism and Pelagianism, I do think PCE can solve our feelings of God committing injustice.

However, we must simply put the Word over and above our own selfish preferences and fallen inclinations.

There is no biblical evidence for PCE Pre-creation existence

 

[Dizerner]

There is no biblical evidence for PCE Pre-creation existence

In one sense, anything can be read into Scripture depending on your starting presuppositions, and everyone presupposes things.

False doctrines do have their supporting verses and sometimes they can seem like in some way they support them.

This is why we must turn to earnest prayer when we read Scripture or our very own hearts will deceive us.