FOUR reasons I believe in the sinful nature. (original sin/ancestral sin/total depravity)
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
This is your third error
It does not mean according to specification
3. good, excellent of its kind:
a. of the several creations, וירא אלהים כי טוֹב and God saw that it was good, excellent Gn 1:4, 1:10, 1:12, 1:18, 1:21, 1:25 (P); כל אשׁר עשׂה והנּה טוֹב מאד 1:31 (P) God saw all that he had made, and behold it was very excellent. o
Brown, Driver Briggs Hebrew lexicon
Last edited:
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
It depends on the context. But where Isaiah 45:7 is concerned it means morally evil. Sin. In all its expressions.
And create evil. The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of men to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not prove that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the Old Testament: Isaiah (vol. 2; London: Blackie & Son, 1851), 150.
create evil—not moral evil (Jam 1:13), but in contrast to “peace” in the parallel clause, war, disaster (compare Ps 65:7; Am 3:6).
Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset, and David Brown, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible (vol. 1; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 482.
45:5–7. Again the uniqueness of God is stressed. The fact that there is no other is stated in verses 5–6, 14, 18, 21–22 (also see 43:11; 44:6; 46:9). In Cyrus’ day the Lord was not universally acknowledged, but eventually He will be (cf. Phil. 2:10–11). People will realize that all that happens-light (life), darkness (death), prosperity, and disaster (not “evil” as in the KJV; cf. Amos 3:6)—comes from God. As the sovereign LORD of the universe He can do everything.
John A. Martin, “Isaiah,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck; vol. 1; Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 11100.
that is your fourth error
Not according to scripture
James 1:13–14 (LEB) — 13 No one who is being tempted should say, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away and enticed by his own desires.
1 John 2:16 (LEB) — 16 because everything that is in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the arrogance of material possessions—is not from the Father, but is from the world.
Jeremiah 32:35 (LEB) — 35 And they built the high places of Baal that are in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to present as offerings their sons and their daughters to Molech, which I had not commanded them, and it had not come to my mind to do this detestable thing in order to cause Judah to sin.”
Isaiah 30:1 (LEB) — 1 “Oh rebellious children!” declares Yahweh, “to make a plan, but not from me, and pour out a libation, but not from my Spirit, so as to add sin to sin.
Galatians 5:7–8 (LEB) — 7 You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from the one who calls you!
1 Corinthians 10:13 (LEB) — 13 Temptation has not come upon you except what is common to humanity. But God is faithful, who will not permit you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will also make a way out together with the temptation, so that you may be able to endure it.
You have posted error after error
He when off from the very beginning identifying good as a verb when it is an adjective in Gen 1:31 as shown by multiple sources
Biblehub, Logos, Accordance
civic
Well-known member
Nice Tom
Mary was still involved. So for your scheme to work, she must have been immaculately conceived. You're a closet Catholic. I didn't know that, interesting.... Tell us more.
May you and your sinner pagan god be happy with each other. As for me and my family, we will serve the eternally Holy God.
Thank you my friend.Nice Tom
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
If you can understand these two passages then you can understand that yes, God created evil when He created man.
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:6–7.
"evil" [Strong #7451]
Hebrew Word: רַע
Transliteration: raʿ
from <H7489> (ra`a`); bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral)
Translated as: (KJV)
evil 442 times
wickedness 59 times
wicked 25 times
mischief 21
hurt 20
bad 13
trouble 10
sore 9
affliction 6
ill 5
adversity 4
favoured 3
harm 3
naught 3
noisome 2
grievous 2
sad 2
miscellaneous translations 34
The word is correctly defined as "bad" and "evil" (natural or moral.)
There's no getting around this passage. God is the Author of everything in creation. God created the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God is Author of everything in creation.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:5.
God is the creator of light as well as darkness, of good as well as evil. I know this shatters your theology of a God who cannot be the Author of evil, but as Isaiah says, God created evil. Now the question is: How can a Righteous God create an unrighteous being - man? But you cannot get to that question while you refuse to believe the Scripture as to where evil came from.
Here's a very old proverb:
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Samuel 24:13.
That's the same as saying "sin comes from sinner." And so, God created sinful man. That's the only way God can create man.
God is the standard by which all things are judged against. God cannot share, copy, reduplicate any of His Nature and Deific Attributes in man. These are His glory and Isaiah says, [God] shares His glory with No One. Only God is Eternal, man is not. Heaven is not eternal. Eternalness is an Attribute of God and He shares none of His glory with man, nor does He share His Eternalness in matter. God is Holy, man is not. God is Sinless, man is sinful. It's not hard to understand.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Revelation 13: 8.
The plot thickens.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
All that is well and good but what matters most is what Isaiah says about God:
There is only ONE God.
There is NONE like Him.
He [God] gives His glory to NO ONE.
This, when applied to man means that Adam possessed NONE of God's Attributes at creation. Isaiah states that there is none like God meaning that Adam was not God, thus he was created 'less' than God and this means fallen SHORT of God's glory, and God does not give His glory (Sinlessness, Holiness, Righteousness, etc.), to man.
Man was not created eternal. He would have died in time even if he did not eat from the forbidden tree. All the tree did was to be used of God to give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness. Adam sinned BEFORE he disobeyed God to not eat from the Tree.
6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.
Adam was proven to be a liar when he added to God's word:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Gen. 3:3.
There was no "Fall" of man. Man was created sinful, and this is why he sinned because sin comes from sinners.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:16–17.
The existence of "thou shalt not" proves man was a sinner before he ate from the Tree.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For qwithout the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Romans 7:7–13.
God told the man, "Thou shalt not [eat of it.]" Now, let's take Saul's words and apply them to Adam:
Adam: "I had not known disobedience except the Commandment said, thou shalt not eat of it."
It's not hard to understand. The existence of a "thou shalt not" proves Adam was a sinner.
The contrast between the first Adam and the last Adam is clear. The first Adam was of the earth, earthy. The last Adam is the Lord from heaven. One is of created matter, the dust of the ground, the last Adam is from the Lord from heaven. He is the Lord from heaven.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Westcott & Hort were closet Catholics.
You obviously do not know what I know.
God created man sinful. God is the Author of evil.
Isaiah's statements blow your Gentile theology out of the water.
By saying, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]" proves Adam was a sinner before he ate from the forbidden tree.
The existence of a "thou shalt not" in the Garden proves Adam was a sinner before he disobeyed and ate from the forbidden Tree.
Again the passage and the word you post refers to disaster
Isaiah 45:7 (NASB95) — 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Isaiah 45:7 (NIV) — 7 I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (UASV) — 7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (ESV) — 7 I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (LSB) — 7 The One forming light and creating darkness, Producing peace and creating calamity; I am Yahweh who does all these.
Isaiah 45:7 (The Modern Language Bible: Berkeley Version) — 7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create calamity; I am the LORD who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NRSV) — 7 I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (CSB) — 7 I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NKJV) — 7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’
Isaiah 45:7 (NABRE) — 7 I form the light, and create the darkness, I make weal and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NJB) — 7 I form the light and I create the darkness, I make well-being, and I create disaster, I, Yahweh, do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7 (NCV) — 7 I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the LORD, do all these things.
You have ignored the multiplicity of translations, context as revealed through previous commentary and selectively appealed to a meaning of your choice
and..?? Tell us more about how you merged your Ethnic Cleansing mindset with Catholicism. We would like to know what came out of that union.
Thank God I do not know the depths of your Ethnic Cleansing delirium.
May you and your sinner pagan god be happy with each other. As for me and my family, we will serve the eternally Holy God.
So the fact that there are laws against murder makes you a sinner of that law??? This is typical of your thinking that warps minds.
My problem is not with our having a sin nature but with the current contradiction within the doublethink logic that GOD is HOLY ie, HE cannot do evil, yet HE creates evil sinners by creating them in Adam and by conception into Adam. I take GOD's holiness much more seriously than to accept that.
To have a nature enslaved to sin as proven by a liability to death, MUST BE by a free will decision to rebel against GOD and in no way can it be a result of GOD's choice for our creation.
We must have been created before our conception on earth.
We must have become sinners by our free will before the foundation of the earth as being born as reprobate proves.
We must have been sent to earth as sinners by the will of GOD for the redemption of HIS sinful elect by the blood of the Son.
Dean
New member
I just read this.
The Bible refers to it as “sin nature.” Adam and Eve sinned against God by doing what He told them not to do, and the sin principle they established was forever passed to every person who would ever be born. God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for our sins, and to deliver us from them. He came to undo what Adam did. When we accept Jesus as our Savior, He comes to live in our spirit, and if we allow that renewed part of us to rule our decisions, we can overcome the sin nature in our flesh. It doesn’t go away, but the greater One Who lives in us helps us overcome it daily (see Gal. 5:16). That does not mean that we never sin, but we can improve and make progress throughout our lives.
LINK
The Bible refers to it as “sin nature.” Adam and Eve sinned against God by doing what He told them not to do, and the sin principle they established was forever passed to every person who would ever be born. God sent His Son, Jesus, to die for our sins, and to deliver us from them. He came to undo what Adam did. When we accept Jesus as our Savior, He comes to live in our spirit, and if we allow that renewed part of us to rule our decisions, we can overcome the sin nature in our flesh. It doesn’t go away, but the greater One Who lives in us helps us overcome it daily (see Gal. 5:16). That does not mean that we never sin, but we can improve and make progress throughout our lives.
LINK
