FOUR reasons I believe in the sinful nature. (original sin/ancestral sin/total depravity)

Sure.

Physically existing is colloquially called life.

This is why Jesus told us what "true" or "real" life is, which gives greater precedence and authenticity to spiritual life over physical existence.

If you can't see that, you will never appreciate what grace really means, and exalt naturalism over redemption.

We all exist beyond the physical. Death isn't the absence of existence.

To many, this is the only the life they will ever know. This is God's grace to all men.

Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17 contains one of the shortest yet deepest sermons Paul ever preached. It changed my life the day I started paying attention to what he said.

It is the life that is afforded all of humanity that leads men to God. This life is designed to teach us. It is all that is left for rebels that deny God like we've done in our past.
 
Now people confuse and conflate what is being claimed by so-called "total depravity" quite a bit, which does not help the issue. What is generally meant is a sin nature, and not "inherited guilt," which is a completely different doctrine that is false, and also not believed by very many, usually a small percentage of hardcore Calvinists. Of course we do not literally have the guilt for Adam's particular sins, because Adam is a different person whose free will choices are his own, but since Adam's choice caused him to be spiritually corrupted and disconnected from spiritual life, everyone born to him is also born with a nature that is evil, and cannot help but accrue personal sin immediately with a sinful nature. nature, all grounded in Biblical truth.
Um that is actually the defacto belief of Calvinism



The Ground of the Imputation of Adam’s Sin

The ground of the imputation of Adam’s sin, or the reason why the penalty of his sin has come upon all his posterity, according to the doctrine above stated, is the union between us and Adam. There could of course be no propriety in imputing the sin of one man to another unless there were some connection between them to explain and justify such imputation. The Scriptures never speak of the imputation of the sins of angels either to men or to Christ, or of his righteousness to them; because there is no such relation between men and angels, or between angels and Christ, as to involve the one in the judicial consequences of the sin or righteousness of the other. The union between Adam and his posterity which is the ground of the imputation of his sin to them, is both natural and federal. He was their natural head


Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 196.



Imputation of Adamic Guilt

This first sin in both of its parts, internal and external, is imputed to Adam and his posterity as sin and guilt because they committed it. The evil desire and the evil act were the desiring and acting of the human nature in the first human pair. The biblical proof of this fundamental and much disputed position is found in the following: “Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12)


William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology (ed. Alan W. Gomes; 3rd ed.; Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 557.





SECTION V.—IMPUTATION OF ADAM’S SIN TO HIS POSTERITY


We have seen that all mankind are sinners; that all men are by nature depraved, guilty, and condemnable; and that the transgression of our first parents, so far as respects the human race, was the first sin. We have still to consider the connection between Adam’s sin and the depravity, guilt, and condemnation of the race.

(a) The Scriptures teach that the transgression of our first parents constituted their posterity sinners (Rom. 5:19—“through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners”), so that Adam’s sin is imputed, reckoned, or charged to every member of the race of which he was the germ and head (Rom. 5:16—“the judgment came of one [offence] unto condemnation”). It is because of Adam’s sin that we are born depraved and subject to God’s penal inflictions (Rom. 5:12—“through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin”; Eph. 2:3—“by nature children of wrath”). Two questions demand answer,—first, how we can be responsible for a depraved nature which we did not personally and consciously originate; and, secondly, how God can justly charge to our account the sin of the first father of the race. These questions are substantially the same, and the Scriptures intimate the true answer to the problem when they declare that “in Adam all die” (1 Cor. 15:22) and “that death passed unto all men, for that all sinned” when “through one man sin entered into the world” (Rom. 5:12). In other words, Adam’s sin is the cause and ground of the depravity, guilt, and condemnation of all his posterity, simply because Adam and his posterity are one, and, by virtue of their organic unity, the sin of Adam is the sin of the race.


Augustus Hopkins Strong, Systematic Theology (Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1907), 593.
 
Um that is actually the defacto belief of Calvinism

"Um," Calvinists actually vary very widely in their beliefs and do not all adhere to or lock in step with any official document.

Many Calvinists have not even ever read John Calvin and ascribe no loyalty whatsoever to him.

In my dealings with Calvinists they are very varied, granted I know of no official census or population count of different kinds.

I can grant that my percentages may be off, it does not matter to my point, and is moot and irrelevant.
 
"Um," Calvinists actually vary very widely in their beliefs and do not all adhere to or lock in step with any official document.

Many Calvinists have not even ever read John Calvin and ascribe no loyalty whatsoever to him.

Same is true of most any organized "denomination", sect, clan or "click". I realized a very long time ago that Arminians and Calvinists have basically the same methodology. Their foundational theological views are self serving.

Whether they both admit or not, both find themselves value themselves either in election or perseverance. Neither really believe God doesn't need them.
 
Um that is actually the defacto belief of Calvinism



The Ground of the Imputation of Adam’s Sin

The ground of the imputation of Adam’s sin, or the reason why the penalty of his sin has come upon all his posterity, according to the doctrine above stated, is the union between us and Adam. There could of course be no propriety in imputing the sin of one man to another unless there were some connection between them to explain and justify such imputation. The Scriptures never speak of the imputation of the sins of angels either to men or to Christ, or of his righteousness to them; because there is no such relation between men and angels, or between angels and Christ, as to involve the one in the judicial consequences of the sin or righteousness of the other. The union between Adam and his posterity which is the ground of the imputation of his sin to them, is both natural and federal. He was their natural head


Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology (vol. 2; Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 196.



Imputation of Adamic Guilt

This first sin in both of its parts, internal and external, is imputed to Adam and his posterity as sin and guilt because they committed it. The evil desire and the evil act were the desiring and acting of the human nature in the first human pair. The biblical proof of this fundamental and much disputed position is found in the following: “Death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12)


William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology (ed. Alan W. Gomes; 3rd ed.; Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 557.





SECTION V.—IMPUTATION OF ADAM’S SIN TO HIS POSTERITY


We have seen that all mankind are sinners; that all men are by nature depraved, guilty, and condemnable; and that the transgression of our first parents, so far as respects the human race, was the first sin. We have still to consider the connection between Adam’s sin and the depravity, guilt, and condemnation of the race.

(a) The Scriptures teach that the transgression of our first parents constituted their posterity sinners (Rom. 5:19—“through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners”), so that Adam’s sin is imputed, reckoned, or charged to every member of the race of which he was the germ and head (Rom. 5:16—“the judgment came of one [offence] unto condemnation”). It is because of Adam’s sin that we are born depraved and subject to God’s penal inflictions (Rom. 5:12—“through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin”; Eph. 2:3—“by nature children of wrath”). Two questions demand answer,—first, how we can be responsible for a depraved nature which we did not personally and consciously originate; and, secondly, how God can justly charge to our account the sin of the first father of the race. These questions are substantially the same, and the Scriptures intimate the true answer to the problem when they declare that “in Adam all die” (1 Cor. 15:22) and “that death passed unto all men, for that all sinned” when “through one man sin entered into the world” (Rom. 5:12). In other words, Adam’s sin is the cause and ground of the depravity, guilt, and condemnation of all his posterity, simply because Adam and his posterity are one, and, by virtue of their organic unity, the sin of Adam is the sin of the race.


Augustus Hopkins Strong, Systematic Theology (Philadelphia: American Baptist Publication Society, 1907), 593.
Adam and the woman's sin was not imputed. They were created sinful ("missing the mark" of the glory of God.)

Isaiah said:
For there is only ONE God,
there is NONE like Him,
and He gives His glory to NO ONE.

By holding to these three things spoken by Isaiah the only conclusion is that Adam and the woman were created fallen short of the glory of God.
The word for that is sin.
 
Adam and the woman's sin was not imputed. They were created sinful ("missing the mark" of the glory of God.)

Isaiah said:
For there is only ONE God,
there is NONE like Him,
and He gives His glory to NO ONE.

By holding to these three things spoken by Isaiah the only conclusion is that Adam and the woman were created fallen short of the glory of God.
The word for that is sin.
Um God declared his creation very good. It would not be so if it was made in sin

Genesis 1:31 (LEB) — 31 And God saw everything that he had made and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.

Coming into the world

Romans 5:12 (NASB95) — 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—




d
 
Um God declared his creation very good. It would not be so if it was made in sin
Here we go again.
The word "good" merely means "good enough" or "to specification." There is no morality to this word. We say the same thing after we do a job "good enough" or "to specification." God is merely saying after a creative act that that which He created is to His specification.

And the belief that Adam was "sinless" or "holy" or "righteous" is a lie. These attributes of sinlessness, holiness and "righteousness" are all Deific Attributes and Nature of God and Isaiah says, there is only ONE God - not two.
There is NONE like Him - Man is definitely NOT like God.
And God gives His glory to NO ONE means God doesn't share, give, copy, reduplicate any aspect of His Nature or Deific Attributes to NO ONE.
And, if Adam was sinless and possessed this Nature of God, then Adam would have to possess ALL the Nature of God or he would fall short of God glory. First Corinthians 15 gives a comparison of the first and last Adam. One is of the dirt, one is from above distinct from dirt. And so it goes. The Bible also says lying is a sin and those that lie do not have eternal life. Adam and the woman lied about what God actually said in the Garden. Adam and the woman LIED when they said, "neither shall ye touch it."

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

So, before they sinned in eating the forbidden fruit they were already sinners because they lied about God's word. Besides this it is only common sense that sin comes from sinners. Sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this.
Genesis 1:31 (LEB) — 31 And God saw everything that he had made and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning, a sixth day.

Coming into the world

Romans 5:12 (NASB95) — 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—




d
That's right. By virtue of Adam's creation as a being fallen short of God's glory sin entered the world. But the world and the universe is not eternal. Neither was Adam. He would have died in time if left to himself because he was not eternal. Christ is, though. The only Person that can stand before a Holy God is a Holy Son.
Only God is Eternal.
Only God is Holy.
Only God is Righteous.
Created matter is NOT holy, or righteous, or sinless.
You need to study this because you are believing a lie about the first Adam.
A lie.
 
Here we go again.
The word "good" merely means "good enough" or "to specification." There is no morality to this word. We say the same thing after we do a job "good enough" or "to specification." God is merely saying after a creative act that that which He created is to His specification.
Utter nonsense

Very good does not mean to specification, even if sinful

Genesis 1:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


Making man corrupt is not very good and makes God the author of sin

Romans 5:18–19 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.



And the belief that Adam was "sinless" or "holy" or "righteous" is a lie.
Really then provide a verse which tells us what the Sin Adam was born with was
 
Here we go again.
The word "good" merely means "good enough" or "to specification." There is no morality to this word. We say the same thing after we do a job "good enough" or "to specification." God is merely saying after a creative act that that which He created is to His specification.

And the belief that Adam was "sinless" or "holy" or "righteous" is a lie. These attributes of sinlessness, holiness and "righteousness" are all Deific Attributes and Nature of God and Isaiah says, there is only ONE God - not two.
There is NONE like Him - Man is definitely NOT like God.
And God gives His glory to NO ONE means God doesn't share, give, copy, reduplicate any aspect of His Nature or Deific Attributes to NO ONE.
And, if Adam was sinless and possessed this Nature of God, then Adam would have to possess ALL the Nature of God or he would fall short of God glory. First Corinthians 15 gives a comparison of the first and last Adam. One is of the dirt, one is from above distinct from dirt. And so it goes. The Bible also says lying is a sin and those that lie do not have eternal life. Adam and the woman lied about what God actually said in the Garden. Adam and the woman LIED when they said, "neither shall ye touch it."

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

So, before they sinned in eating the forbidden fruit they were already sinners because they lied about God's word. Besides this it is only common sense that sin comes from sinners. Sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this.
God did not create sinful human nature. He is not a pagan god that creates sinful things. Our human nature came straight from God. God does not produce sinful anything, let alone a sin nature. Only pagan gods produce sinful things. It is us, as persons, who sin and degrade ourselves. Granted, our bodies do decay and die but that is a consequence of Adam's sin and not because God is in the business of creating sinful nature.

If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have? Your Ethnic Cleansing mindset is in a pickle now as it's always been. 🥒
 
Utter nonsense

Very good does not mean to specification, even if sinful

Genesis 1:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
"good" [Strong's #2895]

Hebrew Word: טוֹב
Transliteration: ṭôb
Part of speech: verb.

a primitive root, to be (transitive do or make) good (or well) in the widest sense


It's a verb, not a noun. It means "well" or "good enough" or "to specification."
Making man corrupt is not very good and makes God the author of sin
Scripture says otherwise. And because it contradicts your long-held belief God is not the Author of sin...

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:6–7.

And this verse, too, if you know how it applies:

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev. 13: 8.
Romans 5:18–19 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous.


Really then provide a verse which tells us what the Sin Adam was born with was
Adam wasn't born; he was created.

Yes, it was disobedience, but sin had to come from somewhere. Sin comes from sinners. Wickedness comes from the wicked:

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

God's people knew this fact that sin comes from sinners a long, long, time. Maybe from the Garden.

Man was created sinful. In order to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness it was necessary to show him by giving him permission to eat from every edible tree except one.
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
Adam disobeyed the command. But the man was sinful in his creation and though there was no restriction in adding to God's word "neither shall ye touch it" the man still added to God's word and was found out to be a liar.

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

It's like if Adam killed the woman. There was no restriction to not kill but it showed his sinfulness for if after eating from the tree the man killed the woman is it a sin?
The same in the way God populated the earth. He did it through incest. Father with daughter, mother with son, brother with sister, and so on. It only became a sin when God said "Thou Shalt Not!"

But although the test was in the Tree, by lying (adding to God's Word) Adam showed himself a sinner. Therefore, there is no "Fall" because Adam was already sinful and a sinner, which is why he sinned.
 
God did not create sinful human nature. He is not a pagan god that creates sinful things. Our human nature came straight from God. God does not produce sinful anything, let alone a sin nature. Only pagan gods produce sinful things. It is us, as persons, who sin and degrade ourselves. Granted, our bodies do decay and die but that is a consequence of Adam's sin and not because God is in the business of creating sinful nature.

If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have? Your Ethnic Cleansing mindset is in a pickle now as it's always been. 🥒
Scripture contradicts your false belief.

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:6–7.

But it doesn't jive with what you always thought was true, that God cannot create anything sinful or evil. But Scripture says God is the Author of sin and evil. He created man and woman - fallen short of God's glory, which is why they sinned and disobeyed God. Sin comes from sinner, just as wickedness comes from the wicked.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

And here's another passage that applies but I bet one billion dollars you don't know how it applies.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev. 13: 8.
 
Scripture contradicts your false belief.

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:6–7.
Massive failure on your part. This passage says nothing about sin. It talks about calamity, what appears to be an evil act on the part of God but is not. The Cross is an excellent example.
But it doesn't jive with what you always thought was true, that God cannot create anything sinful or evil. But Scripture says God is the Author of sin and evil. He created man and woman - fallen short of God's glory, which is why they sinned and disobeyed God. Sin comes from sinner, just as wickedness comes from the wicked.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

And here's another passage that applies but I bet one billion dollars you don't know how it applies.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev. 13: 8.
You failed miserably to prove that "God is the author of sin". Mind you, your god, being a sinful pagan god, is the source of sin.
 
Scripture contradicts your false belief.

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:6–7.

But it doesn't jive with what you always thought was true, that God cannot create anything sinful or evil. But Scripture says God is the Author of sin and evil. He created man and woman - fallen short of God's glory, which is why they sinned and disobeyed God. Sin comes from sinner, just as wickedness comes from the wicked.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

And here's another passage that applies but I bet one billion dollars you don't know how it applies.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev. 13: 8.
calamity is the better translation not evil.
 
And if God hates evil/ sin then He sure does not cause either of them but will use them for His good. Illustrated with Joseph and his brothers.

The evil of men are overcome by His absolute Goodness. God didn't purpose it, but He certainly overcomes evil with His Goodness. Sometimes, He alone is our treasure.

Of whom this world is not worthy.....

Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Heb 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:)
 
God did not create sinful human nature. He is not a pagan god that creates sinful things. Our human nature came straight from God. God does not produce sinful anything, let alone a sin nature. Only pagan gods produce sinful things. It is us, as persons, who sin and degrade ourselves. Granted, our bodies do decay and die but that is a consequence of Adam's sin and not because God is in the business of creating sinful nature.
There, you said it. Sin comes from sinner. Wickedness comes from the wicked. That's the way man was created because of these three truths:
1. There is only ONE God. This means God cannot reduplicate or copy Himself in man. Otherwise, man would also be God but that's impossible. This also means that man was created from existing matter, that is, dust/dirt from the ground. This alone proves that man is less than God, that he is fallen short of the glory of God.
God is the standard by which everything and everyone is judged against.
God is Eternal. Man is not.
God is Eternal. Man dies.
God is Holy. Man is not.
God is Omnipotent, man is not.
God is omniscient, man is not.
God is Alpha and Omega, man was created and has a beginning - and an end.

But let's see what Scripture says:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:42–49.

Man is sown or planted in corruption. Man is sown or planted in dishonor. Man is sown or planted in weakness. Man is sown a natural, of the earth, earthy. There is nothing holy or righteous or sinless about the man created from an existing matter: dust/dirt of the ground. In man's creation he is created sinful, that is, "missing the mark." What is the "mark" missed? The glory of God, or the glory that is God.

There is only ONE Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless, and that Person is the Holy Son. Man sinned because he was created a sinner. Christ did not sin because He is the Only Begotten Son of God. Neither was guile found in His mouth. So, there is distinction between uncreated God and created man. A BIG difference.
Man sinned because sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from Holy. The last Adam (Christ) proved this.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Samuel 24:13.

Believe the Scripture.
If human nature is sinful then what does that make Jesus who took up the very same human nature we all have? Your Ethnic Cleansing mindset is in a pickle now as it's always been. 🥒
The sin nature is passed on to the offspring through the man. Man was responsible for the sin of the woman. In Jesus' birth the man was not involved. He was taken out of the equation.
That seems to me that God ethnically cleansed the race by excluding man in the birth of Jesus.
Repeat after me..."sin comes from sinner just as wickedness comes from the wicked."
Believe the Scripture.
 
"good" [Strong's #2895]

Hebrew Word: טוֹב
Transliteration: ṭôb
Part of speech: verb.

a primitive root, to be (transitive do or make) good (or well) in the widest sense


It's a verb, not a noun. It means "well" or "good enough" or "to specification."

Un that is your first error

It is an adjective

1743023143580.png


 
Massive failure on your part. This passage says nothing about sin. It talks about calamity, what appears to be an evil act on the part of God but is not. The Cross is an excellent example.
So, God is the Author of calamity.
Everything in creation is the result of God. Nothing entered creation unless God willed it and made it happen.

Besides, the word "evil" (Isaiah 47:7) refers to evil just as the word is translated.

I posted Revelations 13: 8 and just as I thought you do not know how that passage applies.
You failed miserably to prove that "God is the author of sin". Mind you, your god, being a sinful pagan god, is the source of sin.
God is Sovereign. Everything that happens in creation is the result of God willing it or making it happen.
Man sinned because he was created a sinner. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy.
 
Un that is your first error

It is an adjective

View attachment 1642
Strong says it's a verb. It can also be an adjective, but in the creation narrative it's a verb.
After God created something He declared it "good" or "well" or "to specification."
We say something is "good" when we finish a job well done.
Father: "How did the cake turn out?"
Mother: "It came out good." (or to specification.)
 
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