I had an idea... Since some of the Calvinists we've long argued with refuse to engage us anymore and ban us from their forums.....
I thought I take one of "ring leaders" comments from their forum and deal with it here.
Link to post in forum that shall not be named... 
1. Foreknowledge is not meticulous determination. It is simply the power of God to accomplish His will. It is most definitely power exerted in purpose. However, there is no reason to assume meticulous causality in λαμβάνειν τελείαν
2. Also, Predestination does not establish meticulous causality beyond that depicted in the Scriptures. For example.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Notice the disconnect from Predestination and various other causal events. There is no evidence being presented that establishes a link between Predestination and meticulous determination.
Calvinism often does this. When you ask for details, the argument always crumbles.
Yes one of the greatest fallacies many make is conflating foreknowledge with predestination.
4309 proorizó(from
4253 /
pró, “before” and
3724 /
horízō, “establish boundaries, limits”) – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine. Since the root (
3724 /
horízō) already means “establish boundaries,” the added prefix (pro, “before”) makes
4309 (
proorízō) “to pre-establish boundaries,” i.e. before creation.–
HELPS™ Word-studies
4267 proginóskó(from
4253 /
pró, “before” and
1097 /
ginṓskō, “to know”) – properly,
foreknow; used in the NT of “God pre-
knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-
determining (requiring) them” .–
HELPS™ Word-studies
What is the difference between foreknowledge, election, and predestination?
To have foreknowledge or prior knowledge of something is crucial when one is designing and planning. If you are designing a building, you must know ahead of time how to finance, where to place it, its basic layout, structure, materials, workers, etc. God, the Great Creator of all, plans as well.
Abraham knew God had a plan, because he was looking for a “city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God”
Hebrews 11:10. God knew when He designed the earth that man would sin and He had already planned to help mankind “…
redeemed with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless…
foreknown before the foundation of the world…”
1 Peter 1:18-20.
Foreknowledge does not indicate manipulation of free will which all men have from Adam down to our day. It implies an intelligence so great that God can plan without violating any of His four main attributes: justice, wisdom, love and power, and without violating man’s freedom to choose. God’s foreknowledge knows that once mankind reflects on choices which led to sin and destruction, and once they see God’s new covenant which will bring joy and happiness, they will
choose righteousness, become perfect, and live forever (
Psalm 76:10,
Revelation 21:4).
The scriptures demonstrate that there have been, are, and will be
“elected” groups, such as the nation of Israel (
Amos 3:2,
Isaiah 45:4); the church (God’s elect, the true and faithful followers of Jesus) (
Romans 8:33,
Mark 13:27, and others.); God’s elect in the future (
Isaiah 65:22). These are ones who have been chosen at different times for different purposes, and
not chosen or called to the isolation or elimination of others, as one day “all the families of the earth” will be blessed, and will eventually be of God’s elect, God’s “ransomed” people.
Isaiah 35:10
Predestination, as referred to in
Romans 8:29, shows that
God foreknew that he would call out a Bride, the Lamb’s Wife, for His son, as in
Ephesians 1:4,
5 – chosen “before the foundation of the world.” This
predestination is of a class, not individuals.
In
Romans 8:29, the Apostle Paul coined a brand-new Greek word,
proorizo, translated into English as “predestined.” However, the word actually
means “to set a boundary ahead of time.” This “boundary” was that the church would be composed of 144,000 (
Revelation 7:1-4) who would develop a Christlike character.
Romans 8:30: (NASB 1995)
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
This verse is about the
body of Christ. There will be a
class of individuals who
conform to preordained standards. The Heavenly Father planned this class even before the foundation of the world. God purposed to grant the Christ (Jesus and His body members) a place of glory, honor, and immortality. (
Romans 2:7,
1 Corinthians 15:53)
To give an illustration, let’s suppose a person decided he wanted to have a sports team. Even before the individual members were selected, it was predetermined that the team would exist. Let us also suppose that all of the criteria for the team were predetermined: the number of team members, the positions, the abilities, a team captain, etc. All of these factors were established years before the team came into existence. Sometime later a general announcement is made for tryouts for the team. This tryout is not mandatory; but those who do tryout, meet the qualifications, and actually make the team could be thought of as being the
elect of this predestinated team.
These same principles apply to God’s selection of the church.
Ephesians 1:4,
5 explain that before the foundation of the world, God purposed to have through Christ a select class brought to sonship. The qualification was they must conform to the character image of His son (
Romans 8:29). Following the team illustration, God predestined that there shall be a class with Christ as the head and the church as his body. (
Ephesians 1:22,
23)
The individual members were not predestinated, but the collective as a whole was. Paul in
Romans 8 tells us how God goes about finding individuals that fit into this elect class. The process is described in verse 30 but is listed in reverse order (predestinated, called, justified, and glorified).
The process
starts with those he “glorified,” (Greek word “
doxazo,” Strongs #G1392). This word is usually translated as “glorified,” but the word also means “honor.” (For an example, see
1 Corinthians 12:26.) From the context of
Romans 8:30, the correct translation should be “honored.”
How was this class honored? They were honored with the knowledge of the gospel, for the sound went into all the earth. (
Romans 10:18,
1 Peter 1:12). Those whom He
honors with the gospel and knowledge of Christ, He
justifies through Christ. Those who are justified through Christ are
called to be of the
predestinated class. Thus, although it was preordained that individuals should make up this predestinated class, it is of their
own “free will” that they enter into this relationship with God. In this relationship, they strive to be copies of His son Jesus Christ who was the first born of this class. (
Colossians 1:18,
Romans 8:29) This is the class that God purposed and preordained before the foundation of the world.
In the end, because of God’s grand foreknowledge, there will be Christ and his church, who as part of Abraham’s seed (the stars), will bless all the families of the earth (sand of seashore).
Genesis 22:17,
18,
Galatians 3:16,
17,
27,
29. What grand plans God laid out before the foundations of the world!biblesources.info
hope this helps !!!
