Foreknowledge and Predistination

[Complete]

Read John 12:32.

All men without exception

'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'
(Joh 20:30)

Hello @civic, ( Ref: replies #15 & #18 )

This cannot be all, 'All without exception'. For not all have the faith to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing have life through His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[civic]

'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'
(Joh 20:30)

Hello @civic, ( Ref: replies #15 & #18 )

This cannot be all, 'All without exception'. For not all have the faith to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and believing have life through His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

drawing everyone does not mean everyone will be saved. We are saved by faith but that does not mean the Holy Spirit does not convict all men, everyone of their sin as Jesus promised. The gospel likewise goes out to everyone just like in Romans 1 all men, everyone is without excuse because God has made Himself known to everyone through creation.

 

[Complete]

drawing everyone does not mean everyone will be saved. We are saved by faith but that does not mean the Holy Spirit does not convict all men, everyone of their sin as Jesus promised. The gospel likewise goes out to everyone just like in Romans 1 all men, everyone is without excuse because God has made Himself known to everyone through creation.

'"Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say?
.... Father, save Me from this hour:
...... but for this cause came I unto this hour.
........ Father, glorify Thy name."
Then came there a voice from heaven, saying,
.... "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered:
others said, An angel spake to Him.
.. Jesus answered and said,
.... "This voice came not because of Me, but for your sakes.
...... Now is the judgment of this world:
........ now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
.......... And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
............ will draw all men unto Me.
This He said, signifying what death He should die.'
(Joh 12:27-33)

Hi @civic,

The word translated, 'draw', is always used in the New Testament of, 'drawing with force', not merely exercising an attractive influence.
A moment of crises had arrived in John 20, the world would pronounce judgment against the Lord Jesus Christ and His claims. Yet His death and resurrection would be the means whereby He would draw all men unto Himself. Some use this as proof that all men will be saved, but John's words in John 20:30-31 show that this is not true.

'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'
(Joh 20:30-31)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[civic]

'"Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say?
.... Father, save Me from this hour:
...... but for this cause came I unto this hour.
........ Father, glorify Thy name."
Then came there a voice from heaven, saying,
.... "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered:
others said, An angel spake to Him.
.. Jesus answered and said,
.... "This voice came not because of Me, but for your sakes.
...... Now is the judgment of this world:
........ now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
.......... And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
............ will draw all men unto Me.
This He said, signifying what death He should die.'
(Joh 12:27-33)

Hi @civic,

The word translated, 'draw', is always used in the New Testament of, 'drawing with force', not merely exercising an attractive influence.
A moment of crises had arrived in John 20, the world would pronounce judgment against the Lord Jesus Christ and His claims. Yet His death and resurrection would be the means whereby He would draw all men unto Himself. Some use this as proof that all men will be saved, but John's words in John 20:30-31 show that this is not true.

'And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through His name.'
(Joh 20:30-31)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Not true as it can mean to persuade as well. Context determines the meaning of words. Liddel/Scott Greek lexicons show it can have 14 variances, nuances of meaning. One of them being by force.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

'And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me.
This He said, signifying what death He should die.'
(John 12:32-33)

'All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me;
and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.'
(Joh 6:37)

'And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me,
that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing,
but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of Him that sent Me,
that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him,
may have everlasting life: and I will raise Him up at the last day.'
(Joh 6:39-40)

Hello @The Rogue Tomatoe,

It is interesting to compare the verse you are considering (John 12:32) with the two scriptures I have placed above for comparison. In both John 2:22 and John 6:39-40, the Lord refers to Himself in resurrection or 'lifted up' from the earth, so that cannot be pointed out as a point of difference between them. Also in John 6:39-40 reference is made to 'seeing the Son', and we know that unbelievers neither see or hear 'the Son', for they are doing neither with the eyes of faith. They, during His lifetime, saw His form, and heard His voice, but did not acknowledge His Sonship, that requires 'eyes that see' and 'ears that hear', and they had neither.

So, 'All men' (John 2:32), refers to those who have both, 'heard' and 'seen' that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and believing have received life through His name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Exactly! Only God can open our eyes and ears. Deuteronomy

I was simply explaining that "all" in the quote he gave meant "all without distinction" not "all without exception".

I love the promise in John 6, where it says very clearly "All the Father giveth me SHALL come to me". There is no possibility that whom the Father gives the son will not come to him. They SHALL come to Jesus. Period.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's not what it says. It doesn't say "all men". It simply says "all". The word "people" or "men" is only implied which is why it appears in translations. In the context of the chapter, it means all without distinction, meaning "not just the Jews but gentiles, too".

All Gentiles. All Jews. That covers everyone.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Exactly! Only God can open our eyes and ears. Deuteronomy

I was simply explaining that "all" in the quote he gave meant "all without distinction" not "all without exception".

I love the promise in John 6, where it says very clearly "All the Father giveth me SHALL come to me". There is no possibility that whom the Father gives the son will not come to him. They SHALL come to Jesus. Period.

A statement of Unity between Father and Son. Why would the Father save those who reject Him? It is a illogical nonsense that the draws the conclusion from the conclusion.

 

[TedT]

That's not what it says. It doesn't say "all men". It simply says "all".

All Gentiles. All Jews. That covers everyone.

IF all must cover everyone, then why is it not considered to cover every son of GOD in HIS explanation of the creation of the physical universe which ALL the sons of GOD witnessed: Job 38:7??

 

[brightfame52]

@The Rogue Tomato

This is what one has to falsify in order to falsify unconditional election. All the Father gives me SHALL come to me. That's unconditional. It's not conditioned upon a decision people make who comes to Jesus. It's those whom the Father gives to Jesus. They SHALL come to Jesus, period.

Correct, so this shows that coming or believing in Jesus is the result of election, the Father giving and election are one and the same. And those the Father chose, are the foreknown

 

[TomL]

@The Rogue Tomato



Correct, so this shows that coming or believing in Jesus is the result of election, the Father giving and election are one and the same. And those the Father chose, are the foreknown

False that refers to those that are the Fathers

John 17:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

While Jesus was on earth the father had given those that were his to the son in the context of a covenant transfer from the Old covenant to the New


That is a condition - hello

 

[TomL]

Exactly! Only God can open our eyes and ears. Deuteronomy

I was simply explaining that "all" in the quote he gave meant "all without distinction" not "all without exception".

I love the promise in John 6, where it says very clearly "All the Father giveth me SHALL come to me". There is no possibility that whom the Father gives the son will not come to him. They SHALL come to Jesus. Period.

Except all are not the Father's to be given to the son

This is not God giving unconditionally preselected men to the son but those that are his

John 17:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[Complete]

I had an idea... Since some of the Calvinists we've long argued with refuse to engage us anymore and ban us from their forums.....

I thought I take one of "ring leaders" comments from their forum and deal with it here.

Link to post in forum that shall not be named...



1. Foreknowledge is not meticulous determination. It is simply the power of God to accomplish His will. It is most definitely power exerted in purpose. However, there is no reason to assume meticulous causality in λαμβάνειν τελείαν

2. Also, Predestination does not establish meticulous causality beyond that depicted in the Scriptures. For example.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the disconnect from Predestination and various other causal events. There is no evidence being presented that establishes a link between Predestination and meticulous determination.

Calvinism often does this. When you ask for details, the argument always crumbles.

Subject Heading:- 'Foreknowledge and Predestination'

'For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called, them he also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @praise_yeshua, @TedT, @civic, @The Rogue Tomatoe, @brightfame52, @TomL.

The object of God's predestination in the verses above is that those predestined should be, 'conformed to the image of His Son'. God was able to pre-destinate because He has foreknowledge. He knows before in other words.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw Him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God'. (Isaiah 54:13)
.. Every man therefore that hath heard,
.... and hath learned of the Father,
...... cometh unto me.'
(Joh 6:44-45)

In regard to the words of our Lord, highlighted above in John 6: I believe that it should be remembered that during the Gospel and Acts periods, only a believing remnant were being called out, and not all Israel, as is explained to that 'remnant' by Paul, in Romans 11. Should that not influence our understanding of the election which was taking place during that period?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TomL]

Subject Heading:- 'Foreknowledge and Predestination'

'For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called, them he also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @praise_yeshua, & Co.,

The object of God's predestination in the verses above is that those predestined should be, 'conformed to the image of His Son'. God was able to pre-destinate because He has foreknowledge. He knows before in other words.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw Him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God'. (Isaiah 54:13)
Every man therefore that hath heard,
and hath learned of the Father,
cometh unto me.'
(Joh 6:44-45)

In regard to the words of our Lord, highlighted above, I believe that it should be remembered that during the Gospel and Acts periods, only a believing remnant were being called out, and not all Israel, as is explained to that 'remnant' by Paul, in Romans 11. Should that not influence our understanding of the election which was taking place during that period?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Um verse 28 should have been included for all that are in verse 29-30 pertain to it

Romans 8:28 (KJV 1900) — 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

what continues in verse 29 & 30 concerns those who love God and are called according to his will and not unconditionally select men

 

[brightfame52]

False that refers to those that are the Fathers

John 17:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

While Jesus was on earth the father had given those that were his to the son in the context of a covenant transfer from the Old covenant to the New


That is a condition - hello

Coming to Jesus in Faith is the result of Election by the Father.

 

[civic]

I love the promise in John 6, where it says very clearly "All the Father giveth me SHALL come to me". There is no possibility that whom the Father gives the son will not come to him. They SHALL come to Jesus. Period.

Did the Father give Jesus the 12 disciples ? yes or no

 

[TomL]

Coming to Jesus in Faith is the result of Election by the Father.

False that refers to those that are the Fathers

John 17:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

While Jesus was on earth the father had given those that were his to the son in the context of a covenant transfer from the Old covenant to the New


That is a condition - hello

 

[praise_yeshua]

Subject Heading:- 'Foreknowledge and Predestination'

'For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called, them he also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @praise_yeshua, @TedT, @civic, @The Rogue Tomatoe, @brightfame52, @TomL.

The object of God's predestination in the verses above is that those predestined should be, 'conformed to the image of His Son'. God was able to pre-destinate because He has foreknowledge. He knows before in other words.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw Him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God'. (Isaiah 54:13)
.. Every man therefore that hath heard,
.... and hath learned of the Father,
...... cometh unto me.'
(Joh 6:44-45)

In regard to the words of our Lord, highlighted above in John 6: I believe that it should be remembered that during the Gospel and Acts periods, only a believing remnant were being called out, and not all Israel, as is explained to that 'remnant' by Paul, in Romans 11. Should that not influence our understanding of the election which was taking place during that period?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Please establish that God knows the future because He has witnessed the events unfold?

God knows His Son. Conformity to the Son is how God knows the elect. The elect have no identity apart from Christ. The Son is Eternal. He alone has Immortality that is gifted to those who accept Him beyond their own understanding in "child like" faith.

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did the Father give Jesus the 12 disciples ? yes or no

Sure did. He will not answer. He has gotten like the rest of them. Just "hit and run".

Paul referenced what God has given Jesus in his letter to those at Corinth

1Co 10:26 For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.

Psa 24:1 A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.

Rather simple. Very complete.

 

[TomL]

Did the Father give Jesus the 12 disciples ? yes or no

Oops you mean Judas as well?

 

[civic]

Oops you mean Judas as well?

The stumbling block for being drawn, elect, chosen and sheep. The stumbling block for tulip