Foreknowledge and Predistination

[TomL]

The stumbling block for being drawn, elect, chosen and sheep. The stumbling block for tulip

You mean Christ shed his blood for Judas and gave his body for him

Luke 22:14–22 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

What is to be of the doctrine of limited atonement, irresistible grace?

 

[TedT]

So God is into killing birds? and removing hair from men's heads to determine the final count?

Extending an argument into absurdity is considered bad form in discussions....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Extending an argument into absurdity is considered bad form in discussions....

I don't remember making that comment. Can you link to the post?

 

[TedT]

Isn't the link provided in my quote of your words??

 

[TomL]

Falsify unconditional election using scripture, not just by your idea of what a loving God would do.

Easily done

Ephesians 1:3–4 (KJV 1900) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

It's in Christ

that would be a condition

 

[brightfame52]

False that refers to those that are the Fathers

John 17:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

While Jesus was on earth the father had given those that were his to the son in the context of a covenant transfer from the Old covenant to the New


That is a condition - hello

Coming to Jesus in Faith is the result of Election by the Father.

 

[TomL]

Coming to Jesus in Faith is the result of Election by the Father.

nope but of learning and hearing from the father

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

and/or being drawn by Christ

John 12:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[brightfame52]

nope but of learning and hearing from the father

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

and/or being drawn by Christ

John 12:32 (KJV 1900) — 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Coming to Jesus in Faith is the result of Election by the Father.

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Foreknowledge and Predestination'

'For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom He did predestinate,
them He also called:
and whom He called, them he also justified:
and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(Rom 8:29-30)

Hello @praise_yeshua, @TedT, @civic, @The Rogue Tomatoe, @brightfame52, @TomL.

The object of God's predestination in the verses above is that those predestined should be, 'conformed to the image of His Son'. God was able to pre-destinate because He has foreknowledge. He knows before in other words.

'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw Him:
and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God'. (Isaiah 54:13)
.. Every man therefore that hath heard,
.... and hath learned of the Father,
...... cometh unto me.'
(Joh 6:44-45)

In regard to the words of our Lord, highlighted above in John 6: I believe that it should be remembered that during the Gospel and Acts periods, only a believing remnant were being called out, and not all Israel, as is explained to that 'remnant' by Paul, in Romans 11. Should that not influence our understanding of the election which was taking place during that period?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thank you, @TomL, @civic and @praise_yeshua, for responding to my post. Yet I am disappointed that no one has taken up the question I asked in the last paragraph, for it is a valid point and one worth considering.

Israel as a nation were an elect nation, the disciples of our Lord were an elect company, as were the believing remnant of Israel during the ministry of the Lord, and the ministry of them that heard Him (i.e., the twelve Heb. 2:3 & Rom.11) . The members of the church which is the Body of Christ were also chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4), not chosen to salvation itself, but through salvation to membership of the One Body of which Christ is the Head, (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. Titus & Phile.)

Just thoughts.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[civic]

Thank you, @TomL, @civic and @praise_yeshua, for responding to my post. Yet I am disappointed that no one has taken up the question I asked in the last paragraph, for it is a valid point and one worth considering.

Israel as a nation were an elect nation, the disciples of our Lord were an elect company, as were the believing remnant of Israel during the ministry of the Lord, and the ministry of them that heard Him (i.e., the twelve Heb. 2:3 & Rom.11) . The members of the church which is the Body of Christ were also chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4), not chosen to salvation itself, but through salvation to membership of the One Body of which Christ is the Head, (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. Titus & Phile.)

Just thoughts.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes and Paul makes the point in Romans 11-13 that the Elect Jew does not mean they are or were saved since most died in unbelief. Being chosen or elect in the calvinist doctrine of predestination does not biblically mean one is saved. The calvinist conflates the terms.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thank you, @TomL, @civic and @praise_yeshua, for responding to my post. Yet I am disappointed that no one has taken up the question I asked in the last paragraph, for it is a valid point and one worth considering.

Israel as a nation were an elect nation, the disciples of our Lord were an elect company, as were the believing remnant of Israel during the ministry of the Lord, and the ministry of them that heard Him (i.e., the twelve Heb. 2:3 & Rom.11) . The members of the church which is the Body of Christ were also chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4), not chosen to salvation itself, but through salvation to membership of the One Body of which Christ is the Head, (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. Titus & Phile.)

Just thoughts.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Corporate Election. I've believed in the teaching before anyone sought to publicly define the belief. To me, it is simply the Gospel.

Individual Election dishonors Jesus Christ.

I've said this "a lot" recently but conformity to the image of God's Son proves that election isn't about the individual. We have no identity apart from Christ. None.

Everyone seems to want to be unique anymore. That is nothing more than the desire of our ego. If we all are going to be confirmed into the image of Christ....

Then the only praise due anyone is Christ.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Thank you, @TomL, @civic and @praise_yeshua, for responding to my post. Yet I am disappointed that no one has taken up the question I asked in the last paragraph, for it is a valid point and one worth considering.

Israel as a nation were an elect nation, the disciples of our Lord were an elect company, as were the believing remnant of Israel during the ministry of the Lord, and the ministry of them that heard Him (i.e., the twelve Heb. 2:3 & Rom.11) . The members of the church which is the Body of Christ were also chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4), not chosen to salvation itself, but through salvation to membership of the One Body of which Christ is the Head, (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. Titus & Phile.)

Just thoughts.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Another thought...... As far as your reference to "Elect Israel", the Calvinist would reject your claim based upon what they believe concerning "Covenant Theology".

 

[civic]

I had an idea... Since some of the Calvinists we've long argued with refuse to engage us anymore and ban us from their forums.....

I thought I take one of "ring leaders" comments from their forum and deal with it here.

Link to post in forum that shall not be named...



1. Foreknowledge is not meticulous determination. It is simply the power of God to accomplish His will. It is most definitely power exerted in purpose. However, there is no reason to assume meticulous causality in λαμβάνειν τελείαν

2. Also, Predestination does not establish meticulous causality beyond that depicted in the Scriptures. For example.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Notice the disconnect from Predestination and various other causal events. There is no evidence being presented that establishes a link between Predestination and meticulous determination.

Calvinism often does this. When you ask for details, the argument always crumbles.

Spot on lol. I was his best buddy and a “ good teacher “ when I was a Calvinist but became his enemy when I challenged Calvinism. Public enemy number 1 lol. And I don’t miss it over there at all.

 

[civic]

You mean Christ shed his blood for Judas and gave his body for him

Luke 22:14–22 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

What is to be of the doctrine of limited atonement, irresistible grace?

Yep

 

[TomL]

Yep

That should be the end of limited atonement

 

[Complete]

@praise_yeshua, @civic,

Thank you for your further responses.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TomL]

Thank you, @TomL, @civic and @praise_yeshua, for responding to my post. Yet I am disappointed that no one has taken up the question I asked in the last paragraph, for it is a valid point and one worth considering.

Israel as a nation were an elect nation, the disciples of our Lord were an elect company, as were the believing remnant of Israel during the ministry of the Lord, and the ministry of them that heard Him (i.e., the twelve Heb. 2:3 & Rom.11) . The members of the church which is the Body of Christ were also chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. (Eph. 1:4), not chosen to salvation itself, but through salvation to membership of the One Body of which Christ is the Head, (Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. Titus & Phile.)

Just thoughts.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Can you clarify what you are asking?

PS note the word elect does not appear anywhere in John's gospel

and he writes

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[Complete]

@Complete reply#32
'No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw Him:
(Joh 6:44-45)

In regard to the words of our Lord, highlighted above in John 6: I believe that it should be remembered that during the Gospel and Acts periods, only a believing remnant were being called out, and not all Israel, as is explained to that 'remnant' by Paul, in Romans 11. Should that not influence our understanding of the election which was taking place during that period?

Can you clarify what you are asking?

PS note the word elect does not appear anywhere in John's gospel

and he writes

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Hello @TomL,

Thank you for responding.

The Lord's words in John 6 (above), are used by many as a proof text for salvation itself being by the election of God: and during the ministry of the Lord while on earth, and that of the Apostles subsequently during the 40 years of the Acts period, it is true that there was an election taking place: For a believing remnant were being called out of Israel at that time, as we are told in Romans 11. So references made to 'election' or 'choice' by God throughout the Gospels, the Acts, and the Epistles written during that period (1 & 2 Thess. 1& 2 Cor. Heb. Rom. Gal. 1 & 2 Pet.1, 2 &3 John, James, Jude) , should surely be viewed with that in mind.

I simply wanted to know if other forum members taking part in the thread had considered that. For Gentles were being brought in to the Kingdom from Acts 10 on, with the sole intent of making Israel jealous, so that they would seek to emulate them, and come to repentance (Rom. 10:19 & 11:11). Salvation was of the Jew (John 4:22) until the end of the Acts period when 'salvation is sent to the Gentiles' (Acts 28:28).​

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Complete]

Yes and Paul makes the point in Romans 11-13 that the Elect Jew does not mean they are or were saved since most died in unbelief. Being chosen or elect in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination does not biblically mean one is saved. The Calvinist conflates the terms.

Hello @civic,

Israel being an elect nation, from which a believing remnant were called during the gospels and the period covered by the book of Acts, who join the company of Abraham and those acknowledged for their faith in Hebrews 11. An election within an election. Overcomers within their generation. The church of the firstborn (Heb. 12:23). Is my thinking right here?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[TomL]

Hello @TomL,

Thank you for responding.

The Lord's words in John 6 (above), are used by many as a proof text for salvation itself being by the election of God: and during the ministry of the Lord while on earth, and that of the Apostles subsequently during the 40 years of the Acts period, it is true that there was an election taking place: For a believing remnant were being called out of Israel at that time, as we are told in Romans 11. So references made to 'election' or 'choice' by God throughout the Gospels, the Acts, and the Epistles written during that period (1 & 2 Thess. 1& 2 Cor. Heb. Rom. Gal. 1 & 2 Pet.1, 2 &3 John, James, Jude) , should surely be viewed with that in mind.

I simply wanted to know if other forum members taking part in the thread had considered that. For Gentles were being brought in to the Kingdom from Acts 10 on, with the sole intent of making Israel jealous, so that they would seek to emulate them, and come to repentance (Rom. 10:19 & 11:11). Salvation was of the Jew (John 4:22) until the end of the Acts period when 'salvation is sent to the Gentiles' (Acts 28:28).​

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

John 6:44 has nothing to do with unconditional election

During this time while Christ was on earth the Father was giving over to the son those that were his in a covenant transfer

John 17:6–9 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.


This was effected by the teaching of God

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Verse 45 quotes from Isa 54 which notes the true disciples will all be taught by God

these are not random unconditionally selected men throughout history but Jews who were disciples of God

Isaiah 54:1–13 (KJV 1900) — 1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: For more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD. 2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, And let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: Spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes; 3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; And thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, And make the desolate cities to be inhabited. 4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: Neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: For thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, And shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; The LORD of hosts is his name; And thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, And a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; But with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; But with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, Saith the LORD thy Redeemer. 9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: For as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; So have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee. 10 For the mountains shall depart, And the hills be removed; But my kindness shall not depart from thee, Neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, Saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. 11 O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, Behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, And lay thy foundations with sapphires. 12 And I will make thy windows of agates, And thy gates of carbuncles, And all thy borders of pleasant stones. 13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; And great shall be the peace of thy children.

The true Jewish church is presented as a barren women who will eventually produced many children who will be taught by the lord

Those that hear and learn from the Father will come to Christ. These are active not passive realities