Faith to Faith

[praise_yeshua]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

The verse above establishes the following facts.

1. The very righteousness of God is reveal by the Gospel through the faithful sharing their faith (via the preaching of the Gospel) to others.
2. Timothy is a descendent of the faith through the faithfulness of his grandmother Lois and His mother Eunice.
3. The church at Corinth were "begotten" by Paul through the Gospel.

Thusly, from whence do the faithful come?

It is clear. Through the preaching of the Gospel. Notice how Paul works backwards from belief to the source of the event that generates belief.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

There is a reason that the faithful often appear in humanity across multiple generations.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

It is the work of the Gospel declared by faith men to humanity that produces saving faith.

 

[civic]

This is a great topic about the gospel which is often overlooked. And how some would pervert the gospel and take away from the simplicity of it. Some want people to be a theologian to understand the complexity of the atonement as a condition for salvation. Personally that has been my battleground this year with the gospel. I think Paul would say to them the same thing he did to the Galatians in chapter 1. Sorry I don't want to take your thread off topic but just wanted to vent a little with you brother.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is a great topic about the gospel which is often overlooked. And how some would pervert the gospel and take away from the simplicity of it. Some want people to be a theologian to understand the complexity of the atonement as a condition for salvation. Personally that has been my battleground this year with the gospel. I think Paul would say to them the same thing he did to the Galatians in chapter 1. Sorry I don't want to take your thread off topic but just wanted to vent a little with you brother.

You're not. I appreciate the comment because it is true. It is unbelief that clouds the message of the Gospel. Unbelief is also multi-generational.
Why would the children of the faithless seek God when they've been told their entire lives that God isn't real?

We know that God designed this life that man might seek Him.

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Every once in a while, God is found of those who "sought Him not". However, those that seek.... FIND. We know this because Jesus said so.

Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Luk 11:10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

That revelation needed for conversion comes about through the work of the Gospel.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Adding....

It is the revelation of the Gospel ALONE that provides ALL the information necessary for anyone to be saved.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Why would the children of the faithless seek God when they've been told their entire lives that God isn't real?

I'd like to add that people actually listen to those they love. Which is why love is essential to the Atonement. It is why Love is listed as the "bond of perfection".

Love BINDS..... Which is another reason that unbelief is often multi-generational. Sinners love their own. They show it....

Which is why you have the situation you have today and why the poor listen to the Gospel. The downtrodden. Those abandoned by society. It is why these are often open to the work of the Gospel.

Today, theology and governmental systems have provide a seemingly "loving" alternative to society that is absent God. I'm tell you.... if you accept this Truth from the Scriptures, you begin to see the Scriptures open to you. You will see this life constructed as God wills it. Not as others demand.

 

[Soyeong]

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

2Ti 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

1Co 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

The verse above establishes the following facts.

1. The very righteousness of God is reveal by the Gospel through the faithful sharing their faith (via the preaching of the Gospel) to others.
2. Timothy is a descendent of the faith through the faithfulness of his grandmother Lois and His mother Eunice.
3. The church at Corinth were "begotten" by Paul through the Gospel.

Thusly, from whence do the faithful come?

It is clear. Through the preaching of the Gospel. Notice how Paul works backwards from belief to the source of the event that generates belief.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

There is a reason that the faithful often appear in humanity across multiple generations.

Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

iIt is the work of the Gospel declared by faith men to humanity that produces saving faith.

In the context of Habakkuk 2, is saying that the righteous shall live by faith in accordance with living in obedience to God in opposition to those who do not live in obedience to Him or is it presented as a way of living that is an alternative to living in obedience to Him?

Is the Gospel that Paul taught in Romans 15:18-19 in accordance with living in obedience to God or an alternative to it?

Does Romans 10:16 speak in favor of those who obey the Gospel or against it?

In Genesis 18:19, is faith in the Gospel in accordance with doing righteousness and justice or an alternative to it?

Do you think that Christians should obediently walk in God's way or not?

 

[praise_yeshua]

In the context of Habakkuk 2, is saying that the righteous shall live by faith in accordance with living in obedience to God in opposition to those who do not live in obedience to Him or is it presented as a way of living that is an alternative to living in obedience to Him?

Is the Gospel that Paul taught in Romans 15:18-19 in accordance with living in obedience to God or an alternative to it?

Does Romans 10:16 speak in favor of those who obey the Gospel or against it?

In Genesis 18:19, is faith in the Gospel in accordance with doing righteousness and justice or an alternative to it?

Do you think that Christians should obediently walk in God's way or not?

I don't believe your actually hold an Orthodox Christian position on the doctrine of Sola Fide. . Which is fine. However, I'm dealing with the intricacies of a distinctly Christian "sola". We are so far apart in our theologies that I question how we can ever be close to being on the "same page" enough to discuss this particular subject with one another.

We really should be having an apologetic discussion concerning your rejection of Sola Fide.

 

[Soyeong]

I don't believe your actually hold an Orthodox Christian position on the doctrine of Sola Fide. . Which is fine. However, I'm dealing with the intricacies of a distinctly Christian "sola". We are so far apart in our theologies that I question how we can ever be close to being on the "same page" enough to discuss this particular subject with one another.

We really should be having an apologetic discussion concerning your rejection of Sola Fide.

Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so you see this as being in accordance with his doctrine of Sola Fide or as rejecting it?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith, so you see this as being in accordance with his doctrine of Sola Fide or as rejecting it?

I'm not disciple of Luther. I'm a disciple of Christ. My appeals are always based upon the Scriptures, facts, circumstances and reason.

You keep bring up the same aspect of the law we have continually argued over in every post you make to me. We've said enough to each other about it. I don't mind continuing to discuss this with you but you're obviously trying to battle a "demon" you have in dealing with faith contrasted against your family teachings. I can imagine that is a difficult process for you. A real struggle.

I'm here sharing my faith. I've spent so many words trying to do just that with YOU.... and YOU actually believe I don't have a working faith? Just look at what I've done in responding to you.

 

[Soyeong]

I'm not disciple of Luther. I'm a disciple of Christ. My appeals are always based upon the Scriptures, facts, circumstances and reason.

While I am also not a disciple of Luther, you spoke about the doctrine of Sola Fide that he coined, which is why I asked whether you thought that he rejected his own doctrine. If so, then you would also be incorrect for thinking that I reject it.

You keep bring up the same aspect of the law we have continually argued over in every post you make to me. We've said enough to each other about it. I don't mind continuing to discuss this with you but you're obviously trying to battle a "demon" you have in dealing with faith contrasted against your family teachings. I can imagine that is a difficult process for you. A real struggle.

I'm here sharing my faith. I've spent so many words trying to do just that with YOU.... and YOU actually believe I don't have a working faith? Just look at what I've done in responding to you.

I don't think you understand what it means to have a working faith. The real struggle in you is evident by the fact that you've refused to answer all of the questions that I've asked you in this thread.

 

[praise_yeshua]

While I am also not a disciple of Luther, you spoke about the doctrine of Sola Fide that he coined, which is why I asked whether you thought that he rejected his own doctrine. If so, then you would also be incorrect for thinking that I reject it.

Luther did not "coin" Sola Fida. Sola Fida is from Latin. Latin has been around in one form or another since before Christ. Making such a claim is nonsense. Sola Fida is taught in the Scriptures. It is a Latin expression denoting a Scriptural teaching.

I know you reject because I can read your words. Origen wrote in contrast to the doctrine of Sola Fide....

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James” – Origen

This is your position.

What the Early Church Believed: Faith and Works

Did the Church Fathers believe that we are we justified by faith apart from works, as Protestants claim, or did they believe that our actions play a part in our justification, as the Catholic Church teaches?

www.catholic.com

Which is comical in and of itself because Origen rejected the book of James.

I give you some advice concerning "internet theology" and "early church history". There is so many lies and misinformation to be found that you should really reconsider making such claims as you made above without careful research.

Indeed, I don't think you understand what it means to have faith. The real struggle in you is evident by the fact that you've refused to answer all of the questions that I've asked you in this thread.

I've more than answered your questions. I noticed how you ignore the obvious fact that I'm here sharing my faith with you in obedience the Gospel. Why did you do this in clear opposition to what I've done in obedience to Christ?

 

[Soyeong]

Luther did not "coin" Sola Fida. Sola Fida is from Latin. Latin has been around in one form or another since before Christ. Making such a claim is nonsense. Sola Fida is taught in the Scriptures. It is a Latin expression denoting a Scriptural teaching.

The fact that the phrase is in Latin does not mean that Luther did not coin it as part of the five Solas of the Reformation. The Bible does not actually state that we are justified by faith alone, but it does directly states that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Nevertheless, there is a sense that we are justified by faith alone that Luther was speaking about in accordance with what the Bible teaches and which is in accordance with saying that an idle faith is not a justifying faith.

I know you reject because I can read your words. Origen wrote in contrast to the doctrine of Sola Fide....

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James” – Origen

This is your position.

What the Early Church Believed: Faith and Works

Did the Church Fathers believe that we are we justified by faith apart from works, as Protestants claim, or did they believe that our actions play a part in our justification, as the Catholic Church teaches?

www.catholic.com

Which is comical in and of itself because Origen rejected the book of James.

I give you some advice concerning "internet theology" and "early church history". There is so many lies and misinformation to be found that you should really reconsider making such claims as you made above without careful research.



I've more than answered your questions. I noticed how you ignore the obvious fact that I'm here sharing my faith with you in obedience the Gospel. Why did you do this in clear opposition to what I've done in obedience to Christ?

We both know that you have not answered my questions. What you share with me is not in accordance with the Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23, which called for repentance from our disobedience to God's law, but rather you oppose his Gospel.

 

[Soyeong]

@civic

Do you think that @praise_yeshua has answered the questions that I asked in posts #6 and #8?

 

[civic]

@civic

Do you think that @praise_yeshua has answered the questions that I asked in posts #6 and #8?

I think the problem is where do works fit into the salvation equation.

PY snd I would say the are proof one is saved which obedience is the fruit of salvation but not the means to salvation. James says the same thing. A real genuine faith will produce good works or fruit proving it’s alive not dead.

Paul says the same thing in Eph 2:8-10

 

[praise_yeshua]

The fact that the phrase is in Latin does not mean that Luther did not coin it as part of the five Solas of the Reformation.

You can't possibly know that Luther "coined the phrase". That was your claim. You claim is empty. I'm being exacting in my response to you. You're not returned the same to me in response.

Sure. Luther used the phrase during the Reformation to summarize a historical teaching contradicted by Catholicism.

The Bible does not actually state that we are justified by faith alone, but it does directly states that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Nevertheless, there is a sense that we are justified by faith alone that Luther was speaking about in accordance with what the Bible teaches and which is in accordance with saying that an idle faith is not a justifying faith.

James is not canonical. Origen said it wasn't. The earlier canonical collection list of the NT does not contain James. James has long been disputed. I know the topic well. You're basing your responses to me on "James's" flawed comments. He was not inspired. He was simply a commentator. Nothing more. He had not authority whatsoever to dictate such nonsense.

We both know that you have not answered my questions. What you share with me is not in accordance with the Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23, which called for repentance from our disobedience to God's law, but rather you oppose his Gospel.

I know you believe repentance is embracing your potential to please God. I know that is how you see repentance. It permeates every word you write. It comes from your heritage. The Jews that sought to murder Jesus Christ believed the same thing. They EMBRACED JOHN's teaching of repentance until they began to understand what it actually meant. Then they abandoned him like the Jews always have done to the prophets sent to them.

John 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

You have not keep the law. You don't keep it now. It demands your death and you NEED MERCY... YOU NEED GRACE.

So tell me once again how successful you've been. Tell me how you're different than those before you.... It is the same "story".... over and over again. You need Grace. I pray you find it young man.

 

[Soyeong]

I think the problem is where do works fit into the salvation equation.

PY snd I would say the are proof one is saved which obedience is the fruit of salvation but not the means to salvation. James says the same thing. A real genuine faith will produce good works or fruit proving it’s alive not dead.

That ironically didn't answer whether or not you think he answered my questions.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law through faith is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is neither the case that our salvation us the result of having first done those works nor is it the case that doing those works is the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I think the problem is where do works fit into the salvation equation.

PY snd I would say the are proof one is saved which obedience is the fruit of salvation but not the means to salvation. James says the same thing. A real genuine faith will produce good works or fruit proving it’s alive not dead.

I can agree with parts of this but I disagree with parts of what you said above.

The genuineness of faith is only relative to the one who approves it. No man has the authority nor right to judge the genuineness of faith. We can question faith... which is what is done throughout the entirety of NT by many different individuals. There is nothing wrong with questioning a person's faith. HOWEVER, proof is only found in God's approval alone. Not in our approval. The Scriptures called Lot a righteous man. A righteous man that was "vexed" with the deeds that surrounded him. However, none of us would never know this.....because he actually joined the ungodly people he was surrounded by. This often happens with faithful people.

It is obvious that @Soyeong is demanding that I don't have faith myself because I don't act like he wants me to act. I don't preach what he wants me to preach. He has become MY JUDGE.

However, I am showing my faith in God through what I preach and live. I'm showing it in spending a significant amount of time actually trying to reason with him about the problems with his view of repentance. He actually sees repentance as embracing his potential to obey God. That is exactly how he sees repentance. If he wants to believe that. Let him do it. He can go about his way... trying to live a perfect life of obedience. He will fail. You know he will fail. I know he will fail. All men fail. When we fail, it is not the law the gives us the remedy for our failures. It is Grace. It is mercy. If we got what we deserve, God would kill us right now according to the demands of the law.

I've basically told him this many times now. I'm fine with him living as he pleases. He doesn't answer to me. However, he should recognize that I'm showing my faith by my actions and he is refusing to acknowledge it. I'm doing what James said is required of me to be saved.

However, I disagree that what James said is a requirement for salvation and I believe based upon what James taught.... James did not teach "Faith alone".

 

[praise_yeshua]

That ironically didn't answer whether or not you think he answered my questions.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to God's law through faith is intrinsically part of the concept of being saved from not living in obedience to it.

Like I haven't answered you many times now. If being "saved from sin" means you MUST be obedient and not sin...... THEN WHY do YOU sin? YOU.... I said ..... YOU fail your own theological requirement.

You've never answered this. You just keep repeating yourself.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is neither the case that our salvation us the result of having first done those works nor is it the case that doing those works is the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works..

Then why do you do ungodly things? A righteous man FALLS and gets up. However, HE FALLS. Over and OVER and OVER again. Just like you do.

Apart for faith that brings Grace and Mercy. You have no hope. You're not obedient. You're pretending you are.

 

[Soyeong]

You can't possibly know that Luther "coined the phrase". That was your claim. You claim is empty. I'm being exacting in my response to you. You're not returned the same to me in response.

Sure. Luther used the phrase during the Reformation to summarize a historical teaching contradicted by Catholicism.

I didn't claim that he invented the concept, but that he coined the phrase. So I was curious, do you think that that Luther's position that an idle faith is not a justifying faith is in accordance with or in rejection of Sola Fide?

James is not canonical. Origen said it wasn't. The earlier canonical collection list of the NT does not contain James. James has long been disputed. I know the topic well. You're basing your responses to me on "James's" flawed comments. He was not inspired. He was simply a commentator. Nothing more. He had not authority whatsoever to dictate such nonsense.

Others consider it canonical, which is why it is included in Catholic and Protestant Bibles. In any case, the Bible does not directly state that we are justified by faith alone.

I know you believe repentance is embracing your potential to please God. I know that is how you see repentance. It permeates every word you write. It comes from your heritage. The Jews that sought to murder Jesus Christ believed the same thing. They EMBRACED JOHN's teaching of repentance until they began to understand what it actually meant. Then they abandoned him like the Jews always have done to the prophets sent to them.

Repentance is inherently an act of faith and it is by that faith that God is pleased. The Jews who sought to murder Jesus also ate food and breathed air, so you might want to be careful with doing that. The issue of whether we should repent from our sins is not the same as believing whether Jesus is the Messiah.

John 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Act 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

You are blatantly taking that of out context. The fact that he said that the people he was speaking to have not obeyed the law does not mean that he was saying that no one has kept it. Moreover, notice that he connected those who have uncircumcised hearts and who resist the Spirit with not keeping God's law.

You have not keep the law. You don't keep it now.

That is still a lie.

So tell me once again how successful you've been. Tell me how you're different than those before you.... It is the same "story".... over and over again. You need Grace. I pray you find it young man.

God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14), yet you resist His grace while telling me that I need it.

 

[Soyeong]

I can agree with parts of this but I disagree with parts of what you said above.

The genuineness of faith is only relative to the one who approves it. No man has the authority nor right to judge the genuineness of faith. We can question faith... which is what is done throughout the entirety of NT by many different individuals. There is nothing wrong with questioning a person's faith. HOWEVER, proof is only found in God's approval alone. Not in our approval. The Scriptures called Lot a righteous man. A righteous man that was "vexed" with the deeds that surrounded him. However, none of us would never know this.....because he actually joined the ungodly people he was surrounded by. This often happens with faithful people.

It is obvious that @Soyeong is demanding that I don't have faith myself because I don't act like he wants me to act. I don't preach what he wants me to preach. He has become MY JUDGE.

I edited my post right after I posts it to say that I don't think that you understand what it means to have a working faith, but either way, I was not acting as your judge. So I'll let you answer me directly: do you have faith in God to guide you in how to rightly live through His law? It's not about whether you do what I want, but whether you are willing to trust what God has instructed in His law.

However, I am showing my faith in God through what I preach and live. I'm showing it in spending a significant amount of time actually trying to reason with him about the problems with his view of repentance. He actually sees repentance as embracing his potential to obey God. That is exactly how he sees repentance. If he wants to believe that. Let him do it. He can go about his way... trying to live a perfect life of obedience. He will fail. You know he will fail. I know he will fail. All men fail. When we fail, it is not the law the gives us the remedy for our failures. It is Grace. It is mercy. If we got what we deserve, God would kill us right now according to the demands of the law.

Repentance is turning away from living in sin and returning to living in obedience to God's law through faith, which has nothing to do with trying to live a perfect life of obedience. The fact that someone is repenting means that they have already sinned and can no longer have perfect obedience. If we fail, then we can repent. God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law, but you want God to be gracious to us instead of teaching us to obey His law. It is contradictory to think that God is merciful while also thinking that He instructed a law that is without mercy. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the law.

I've basically told him this many times now. I'm fine with him living as he pleases. He doesn't answer to me. However, he should recognize that I'm showing my faith by my actions and he is refusing to acknowledge it. I'm doing what James said is required of me to be saved.

However, I disagree that what James said is a requirement for salvation and I believe based upon what James taught.... James did not teach "Faith alone".

People can have faith in anything, such as in a couch to support their weight, but I am speaking about what it means to have faith in the God of Israel, which is not what you are speaking in favor of or what James said is required to be saved. James taught faith alone in the same sense that Paul did and also taught against faith alone in the same sense that Paul did, so the issue what it is alone from.