Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Jim]

@Doug Brents



Yes it accompanies Salvation Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
It comes with the Spirits Sanctifying work of Salvation 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief here in the greek is the word noun πίστις:
faith (239x),

There you go. Regeneration is an aspect of salvation by Grace and it brings Faith/or Belief of the Truth

You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word "through". Salvation does not bring faith, Salvation occurs through faith. Faith must exist before the gift of salvation is given.

 

[synergy]

ROTFLMBO! Bright, do you understand English? Read the end of verse 13 again with me.
From the beginning, God has chosen you to be saved. And He chose to save you through the cleansing of the Spirit AND through belief of (faith in) the truth.
It is through faith and the cleansing (sanctification) of the Spirit that we receive salvation.

Just as I suspected and you just confirmed, Bright is linguistically challenged. Unfortunately, if the person you're talking to does not have language skills, it is futile to carry on a conversation.

 

[Muckah]

Just as I suspected and you just confirmed, Bright is linguistically challenged. Unfortunately, if the person you're talking to does not have language skills, it is futile to carry on a conversation.

 

[synergy]

I am back. Had a great week. I was saddened to see the response from @GodsGrace and @Jim it seems like the whole story went over both of your heads. and you still do not see the picture.

I thanked you for reminding us of Abel's good works of offering the best of his flocks, a reflection of his solid commitment to and belief in God. That's exactly what we are all called to do: have faith in God and to do preordained good works.

The answer to our sin was the death of an animal. God killed the animal to cover Adam and Eve.

He did not keep killing animals to cover them every time they sinned. He just covered them

They did not take this covering off and replace it with their fig leaves again thinking they had to keep trying to cover their nakedness for which the knowledge of sin had left them exposed..

The law showed that for any redemption or atonement to occur. an innocent animal without blemish had to be offered. there was no other means of atonement or forgiveness.

Jesus died once for all time for all sin. so we could be set free. Not so we could go back to the law and try earn our salvation again, if salvation can be lost. Jesus would have to come and die again. For without the shedding of blood. there is no forgiveness.

Nobody here is going back to the Law. Our ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago.

We do not come to God. God comes to us. He offers us his salvation. we have the ability to receive this free gift. or the opportunity to reject it.

sadly. we have far to many people who have a false repentence. they claim they repented. claim they trusted God. but in reality, they not only have not repented. but you can tell by their words. they have no faith in the promises of God.. their trust continues to be in self..

Over here we trust God and how He elected each one of us to do the good works that He preordained for us.

 

[brightfame52]

@Doug Brents

LOL, no. That means that the language God used to write the NT Scriptures is very exact and concise.

Duh thats why it takes the Spirit of God to know the things of the Spirit of God, not greek scholars. 1 Cor 2:10-14

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Maybe Paul should have added a course or two of greek that we may know the things of the Spirit of God

 

[brightfame52]

ROTFLMBO! Bright, do you understand English? Read the end of verse 13 again with me.
From the beginning, God has chosen you to be saved. And He chose to save you through the cleansing of the Spirit AND through belief of (faith in) the truth.
It is through faith and the cleansing (sanctification) of the Spirit that we receive salvation.

I understand when the Spirit saves us He gives Faith with it. See the Spirit saves the elect inwardly and spiritually as part of Christ saving us. The elect needed more than just legal forgiveness, we needed to be saved from the power of sin inwardly. Thats part of salvation Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; This is the Sanctification of the Spirit that gives Faith

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Faith is part of Sanctification. Christ prayed for that as a benefit of His death Jn 17:17-20

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

 

[brightfame52]

You obviously do not understand the meaning of the word "through". Salvation does not bring faith, Salvation occurs through faith. Faith must exist before the gift of salvation is given.

Yeah, salvation spiritually is by means of the Spirit.. The Spirit is instrumental in saving by regeneration, renewal Titus 3:5

See believing is part of conversion which the Spirit does. Now when He saves us it brings Faith/belief, hence Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 the same greek word

This is elementary. The same Truth is in 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

obedience here is obeying the Truth, Faith and its followed by sanctification of the Spirit, same as in 2 Thess 2:13

This is Gospel my friend

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I thanked you for reminding us of Abel's good works of offering the best of his flocks, a reflection of his solid commitment to and belief in God. That's exactly what we are all called to do: have faith in God and to do preordained good works.

yes, God saved us by grace through faith

And the new creatures he made us were created for good works..

Nobody here is going back to the Law. Our ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago.

Anyone who says salvation can be lost is going back to the law

There are two ways to heaven

1. The law (no one is qualified)
2. Grace through faith, through the atoning work of Christ on the cross.

God covered adam and eve. He did not cover them, then tell them to keep trying to save themselves. he adopted them as his children.. and became their father

Over here we trust God and how He elected each one of us to do the good works that He preordained for us.

that great I do to

But if you are trusting them to get or keep you saved.

well your faith is in self and your works. and not God and his works

 

[synergy]

yes, God saved us by grace through faith
And the new creatures he made us were created for good works..
Anyone who says salvation can be lost is going back to the law
There are two ways to heaven
1. The law (no one is qualified)
2. Grace through faith, through the atoning work of Christ on the cross.
God covered adam and eve. He did not cover them, then tell them to keep trying to save themselves. he adopted them as his children.. and became their father

3. Justification by faith in the atoning work of Christ and God's preordained good works for us. (James 2:24, Rom 2:7).

Abel's preordained good works of offering the best of his flocks, a reflection of his solid commitment to and belief in God. That's exactly what we are all called to do: have faith in God and to do preordained good works. That's how Abel was justifiably pleasing to God.

that great I do to
But if you are trusting them to get or keep you saved.
well your faith is in self and your works. and not God and his works

Didn't you read about Abel and how his preordained good works were pleasing to God. You don't like being justifiably pleasing to God?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

3. Justification by faith in the atoning work of Christ and God's preordained good works for us. (James 2:24, Rom 2:7).

saved for good works. not by good works. (eph 2, Rom 4 etc etc)

Abel's preordained good works of offering the best of his flocks,

All Abel did was show he understood the plan of salvation. His works proved he was saved,. they did nto save him.

God put the clothes on Adam and Eve He did not make them for them and tell them to put them on.

a reflection of his solid commitment to and belief in God. That's exactly what we are all called to do: have faith in God and to do preordained good works. That's how Abel was justifiably pleasing to God.

But those works do not and can not save you.

Didn't you read about Abel and how his preordained good works were pleasing to God. You don't like being justifiably pleasing to God?

lol

All works done by Gods people are pleasing to him

But you can not be saved by your works. It pleased God to take your sin and save you. But he will not force you/. You have to accet it..

If your going to try to earn it by works. God will not accept your filthy rags, and he will not be pleased by you rejecting his sons gift.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am back. Had a great week. I was saddened to see the response from @GodsGrace and @Jim it seems like the whole story went over both of your heads. and you still do not see the picture.

Didn't go over my head.
I just don't agree with your view of Jesus' teachings on salvation.
or Paul's for that matter.

Did you think hearing about Adam and Eve AGAIN would change my belief system?
How would it?
Adam did NOT OBEY God and look at the mess we're in.

The answer to our sin was the death of an animal. God killed the animal to cover Adam and Eve.

He did not keep killing animals to cover them every time they sinned. He just covered them

If you go one book ahead, you'll find that many animals were killed to forgive the sins of the Israelites.
They also did not obey God and many of them died as a result. Physical death.

They did not take this covering off and replace it with their fig leaves again thinking they had to keep trying to cover their nakedness for which the knowledge of sin had left them exposed..

This refers to Hebrews 6:4.....
Those fig leaves just won't work....
but we still MUST obey §God.

The law showed that for any redemption or atonement to occur. an innocent animal without blemish had to be offered. there was no other means of atonement or forgiveness.

Jesus died once for all time for all sin. so we could be set free. Not so we could go back to the law and try earn our salvation again,

The Law ended 2000 years ago EG.
Maybe you could acknowledge this since you know all about fig leaves.

Did the MORAL LAW end 2000 years ago?

if salvation can be lost. Jesus would have to come and die again. For without the shedding of blood. there is no forgiveness.

See.
Cheap grace.
Jesus died once.
That's enough, as you've stated.
So does His death warrant our obedience or not?

Did the MORAL LAW end 2000 years ago?

We do not come to God. God comes to us. He offers us his salvation. we have the ability to receive this free gift. or the opportunity to reject it.

Agreed.

sadly. we have far to many people who have a false repentence. they claim they repented. claim they trusted God. but in reality, they not only have not repented. but you can tell by their words. they have no faith in the promises of God.. their trust continues to be in self..

You mean like that member that said he could blaspheme God and STILL BE SAVED.
Or another member on this very forum who said that we are not required to obey God.
Or another member on this very forum who stated that there is NOTHING WE COULD do to forfeit our salvation.

You see EG... your belief system leads to this, as I've stated many times and which is proven by at least 3 members that I know of:

1. Undermining of Christian values.

2. Belief rules and not behavior.

3. Authority of God is not acknowledged.

 

[GodsGrace]

@Eternally-Grateful


I also wish some would stop using the filthy rags verse as support since it means the OPPOSITE of what you and others think it means.

Thought I'd post it: (the green is mine)

Isaiah 64:4-7
4 For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, Nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways.
God REJOICES for the one who does righteousness...
the one who remembers God's ways...IOW,,,
the one who obeys.

Behold, You were angry, for we sinned, We continued in them a long time; And shall we be saved?
Isaiah is now speaking about those THAT SINNED...those that did not obey God but went their own way.
He is no longer speaking about those that rejoice in doing righteousness.
NO FILTHY RAGS for THEM.

6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
§To the UNCLEAN righteous deeds are like filthy rags....
NOT TO THE BELIEVER.

And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Iniquity removes these from the sight of God.

7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
The one who does not call on the name of §God, who is under the power of iniquity,
is the one whose DOING is as filthy rags.

 

[armylngst]

You trying to equate human carnal wisdom matters with Spiritual things. Faith accompanies Salvation which is a Gift. When something accompanies something its joined together with it.

Its like when Paul wrote this Rom 8:32

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

There are Spiritual things given freely The WITH Christ

The word with is the greek prep sun and means:

accompany (with G2064) (1x). soon; a primary preposition denoting union; with or together
God gave Christ to die for the elect as a Gift and with Him He freely bestows all things appropriate to save them from their sin. In fact the words freely give means:
χαρίζομαι:

1. to grant forgiveness, to pardon
2. to give graciously, give freely, bestow
   1. to forgive

So with Christ God gives, grants forgiveness of sins, they have no sins charged against them, they are Justified from all sin. That accompanies Christ as a Gift

No I am not. I am reasoning, just as God says in the Old Testament. Come let us reason together. All this fight from you simply because I said that faith is not THE gift, that SALVATION is the gift of God, as though I should believe that we get to heaven by faith without salvation.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Didn't go over my head.
I just don't agree with your view of Jesus' teachings on salvation.
or Paul's for that matter.

Did you think hearing about Adam and Eve AGAIN would change my belief system?
How would it?
Adam did NOT OBEY God and look at the mess we're in.


If you go one book ahead, you'll find that many animals were killed to forgive the sins of the Israelites.
They also did not obey God and many of them died as a result. Physical death.

This refers to Hebrews 6:4.....
Those fig leaves just won't work....
but we still MUST obey §God.


The Law ended 2000 years ago EG.
Maybe you could acknowledge this since you know all about fig leaves.

Did the MORAL LAW end 2000 years ago?


See.
Cheap grace.
Jesus died once.
That's enough, as you've stated.
So does His death warrant our obedience or not?

Did the MORAL LAW end 2000 years ago?

Agreed.

You mean like that member that said he could blaspheme God and STILL BE SAVED.
Or another member on this very forum who said that we are not required to obey God.
Or another member on this very forum who stated that there is NOTHING WE COULD do to forfeit our salvation.

You see EG... your belief system leads to this, as I've stated many times and which is proven by at least 3 members that I know of:

1. Undermining of Christian values.

2. Belief rules and not behavior.

3. Authority of God is not acknowledged.

You just proved my point

The cross is meaningless to you. You have no power

1. You undermine Christian values. and are basically no better than a jew who crucified Christ. Pumping your chest about how good you are. and praising God your not like the sinner.

2. It is actually you who force rules and not behavior. I preach our behavior becomes like Christ because we are saved. Because we are grateful for the great gift he has bestowed upon us. and because he made us new creatures. You obey to try to stay saved..

3. Authority of God is acknowledged, but not just that, his love and great mercy is acknowledged.

Believe it or not. God has perfect justice. He also has perfect love.

I accept and cherish both. You acknowledge one. but belittle the other.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@Eternally-Grateful


I also wish some would stop using the filthy rags verse as support since it means the OPPOSITE of what you and others think it means.

Thought I'd post it: (the green is mine)

Isaiah 64:4-7
4 For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear, Nor has the eye seen a God besides You, Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.
5 You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways.
God REJOICES for the one who does righteousness...
the one who remembers God's ways...IOW,,,
the one who obeys.

Behold, You were angry, for we sinned, We continued in them a long time; And shall we be saved?
Isaiah is now speaking about those THAT SINNED...those that did not obey God but went their own way.
He is no longer speaking about those that rejoice in doing righteousness.
NO FILTHY RAGS for THEM.

6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
§To the UNCLEAN righteous deeds are like filthy rags....
NOT TO THE BELIEVER.

And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
Iniquity removes these from the sight of God.

7 There is no one who calls on Your name, Who arouses himself to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.
The one who does not call on the name of §God, who is under the power of iniquity,
is the one whose DOING is as filthy rags.

Sorry if the truth hurts sis.

You want to get to God with your works. go for it. God will not accept them.

God accepts the pure water. You can ot add even a small amount of Edit to this water and expect God to drink it as your offering to him

thats pretty much what yuo and those who tarnish the grace of God into legalism and those who tarnish it to licentiousness do.

what's amazing is the licentious would call me a legalist, while you call me licentious.

sometimes we need to remove the specs from our eyes so we can see clearly. sadly to many are stuck in doctrine, and religion and what they have been taught or their church theology. so they can not see what is really being said.

this is proven in here all the time, and no great evidence is it shown that in the arminian vs calvin debate.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No I am not. I am reasoning, just as God says in the Old Testament. Come let us reason together. All this fight from you simply because I said that faith is not THE gift, that SALVATION is the gift of God, as though I should believe that we get to heaven by faith without salvation.

while faith is a gift, because without God and his work we would never repent and come to faith.

It is not the gift in Eph 2. amen.

the gift is salvation.. that those who freely recieve are given. all based on Gods work.

 

[Jim]

This is Gospel my friend

Not even close!

 

[synergy]

saved for good works. not by good works. (eph 2, Rom 4 etc etc)

There you go again, talking about Rom 3 & 4's reference to works of the Law. My ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. If your circles continue to practice them then by all means do tell them.

As for you, you continue to disregard James 2:24. Let's redo your eye test again. Tell us what you actually see when you read that verse. Here it is:

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

All Abel did was show he understood the plan of salvation. His works proved he was saved,. they did nto save him.

He definitely understood the plan of justification which is by faith and by preordained good works. (Rom 2:7, James 2:14-26). How can you possibly be saved without being justified?

God put the clothes on Adam and Eve He did not make them for them and tell them to put them on.

But those works do not and can not save you.

lol

They certainly justified Abel. How can you possibly be saved without being justified?

All works done by Gods people are pleasing to him

They are justifiably pleasing to God. See James 2:25.

But you can not be saved by your works.

Again, we are saved by both faith and good works. So stop with the strawmen.

It pleased God to take your sin and save you. But he will not force you/. You have to accet it..

If your going to try to earn it by works. God will not accept your filthy rags, and he will not be pleased by you rejecting his sons gift.

Doesn't sound like Rahab's justifying good works were viewed as "filthy rags" by God according to James 2:25. It's back to your drawing board for you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There you go again, talking about Rom 3 & 4's reference to works of the Law. My ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. If your circles continue to practice them then by all means do tell them.

There you go again twisting the word of God to suit your own preconcieved belief ststem

The law is NOT in context in romans 4. Romans was a gentile church. it did not have the law. There was no law in abrahams day.

if you want to twist the word of God to suit your legalism. feel free. But keep it to yourself

As for you, you continue to disregard James 2:24. Let's redo your eye test again. Tell us what you actually see when you read that verse. Here it is:

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

He definitely understood the plan of justification which is by faith and by preordained good works. (Rom 2:7, James 2:14-26). How can you possibly be saved without being justified?

They certainly justified Abel. How can you possibly be saved without being justified?

They are justifiably pleasing to God. See James 2:25.

Again, we are saved by both faith and good works. So stop with the strawmen.

Doesn't sound like Rahab's justifying good works were viewed as "filthy rags" by God according to James 2:25. It's back to your drawing board for you.

lol

While you twist james and Romans and have them apposed to each other.

I will interpret them in complete harmony.

Abraham was justified in Gen 15. He believed God and God accounted it to him as righteousness.

James is talking about ALL the works Abraham did many years after Abraham was justified with the justification Paul spoke of in Romans 4. (Paul even quoted Gen 15)

The other problem is Abraham was not even perfect.

He commited adultry and his sin still affects the world today

He laughed at God

He was so short of faith and in fear. he offered his wife up as his sister..

Again, You want to go to God with fig leaves. feel free. But God already showed us in Genesis that he rejected fig leaves. and with Cain he showed he rejects all works righteousness to try to get to God based on your deeds.

 

[mailmandan]

Again, we are saved by both faith and good works.

Just as I suspected and you just confirmed it - false gospel alert. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

I fully understand that your idea of a "self-attached branch" is a figment of your imagination.

I fully understand why you don't understand. 1 Corinthians 2:14 - But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.