Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

Anything you do, an act can be defined as a work from the definition of ergon :

1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now when the regenerated person believes its a good work performed which he was created to walk in Eph 2:9-10
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The good works of conversion activity

the person is not regenerated until after they recieve it in faith

he who does not believe is condemned already

you can not be regenerated while in a condemned state

regeneration is the result of having condemnation removed

and as jesus said, this happens when we recieve him, when we believe and trust him..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

EG I've explained the above and you haven't replied or I missed it.

You have to explain the word BELIEVE.

what does believ have to do with romans 11

romans 11 is about the question "is God done with Israel?

You have to explain the difference between law and The Law.
You have to explain the difference between good works/deeds and works of The Law.

There is no conflict in the bible...
If your verses above mean to have FAITH ONLY....
then YOU are causing conflict between these verses and Jesus' and Paul's teaching that we are to do good works.

Just this, must go:

Romans 2:5-6
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS...

What do you think Paul means by rendering to each man according to his deeds at the time of judgment??
Why would Paul make such a statement if he doesn't believe in doing good works AFTER salvation.

I do not have to do any of this

a work is a work is a work

it does not matter if it is a work of the law. or a work of obedience to any of the hundreds of other commands God gave us

itf we obey to merit something.. it is a work of merit

if we obey out of love, and expect nothing in return (like christ did) then it is a work of love

 

[Dizerner]

I might as well throw my bible out. I can nto trust it.

If you deny the warnings in Scripture specifically addressed to believers, you ARE throwing your Bible out.

 

[civic]

But thats not what he said

he said it is the work of God

I understand calvin destroys the meaning of this by trying to say we must be regenerated first.

I also know others say it is Gods work. or Gods faith that save us

both of them are wrong

But lets just get to the issue

It is the work of God. what is? That we trust him

Give God the glory and the credit. Not yourself.

Yet that faith is man’s responsibility

 

[Dizerner]

That continued faith is also man's responsibility.

No "one and done" with God.

 

[civic]

spot off

people need to back of their hate of calvinism and stop looking at everythign through a calvinist or anti-calvinist lense

Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

 

[synergy]

No I think Gods grace is his grace. not some trumped up grace plus works nonsense

1. it is not of works

I keep telling you that the works of the Law practice was given up 2000 years ago. Keep barking up that wrong tree if it makes you feel better.

2. If you try to work, it incurs debt, not Grace

You can do good without incurring debt from anyone. Luke 6:35 proves it.

(Luke 6:35) But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

3. It is either of grace or it is of works. but it can not be both

Are you seriously saying that the works that God preordained for us are not part of His Grace??? You sure know how to warp God’s Grace to fit your erroneous presuppositions.

(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS
rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK
4. I was saved by grace period. But through faith. Not of works. you want to boast feel free. count me out
5. Grace is a gift of God. which makes salvation a gift of God that can not be earned by works.
Eph 2: 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)
6. Not even by my good deeds can I be saved. but by Gods mercy
2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)
5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Again, I keep telling you that the works of the Law practice was given up 2000 years ago. Keep barking up that wrong tree if it makes you feel better.

Your attempt to add works to grace will not work. scripture not only refutes it, but it rejects it

Paul already did that in Eph 2:10.

(Eph 2:10) For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

You don’t believe that God’s preordained good works are part of His Grace???? What type of malformed grace are you promoting here?

No. "the faith" refers to the faith that James spoke of.
James mentioned people who said they had faith but had no works.
He then asked the question, Can "the faith" that he just spoke of. save these people
But you pit james against the verses I just posted. and in doing so cause the word of God to contradict itself.
thats on you bro not me
My believe in james agrees with the passages above, they are not at odds with each other.

“Can the faith save him?” James 2:14b

By using the pronoun “him”, it is already understood that James is already pointing back to the person that has the dead faith. There’s no further need for more pointers back to the person that has the dead faith. How many pointers do you need, a dozen? So your attempt to alter James 2:14 loses all credibility.

It’s funny that you challenged me that we go over James 2:14 and on (verse by verse) and on the very first verse you got nailed for trying to alter the word of God in order to appease your presuppositions. Your challenge is going absolutely nowhere fast.

 

[Jim]

Ok.... I hate to broach this subject but can you clarify " having faith in God, says that salvation, eternal life, comes through the work of God of believing."

How does the work of God (of believing) relate to the faith OF Jesus, or doesn't it?

What do you think is the faith OF Jesus? The passages that speak of the faith OF Jesus occur only in the mistranslations/misinterpretations of English versions like the KJV.

 

[Jim]

yes, and sadly you seem to have failed to understand like those disciples who left him

What works must WE DO

"IT is the work of God"

interpretating

You can not do any works.. even your repentance and faith is not something you can do without the work of God in your life

lol

I want you to read this to yourself. If you can read it without laughing at the mistake you just made.. Well then i am not sure I can help you

Jesus is telling them the WORK OF GOD THEY MUST DO.

I mean seriously.

its one thing to say remission of sin happens at water baptism, then deny you believe we are saved through water baptism, its another to say we must do the work Jesus said is Gods work

No. Jesus answered correctly

Even your faith is not your work.. Paul agrees. as he said in eph 2 8 - 9 that it is by Grace we have been saved through faith not of works..

faith is not a work..

Paul said otherwise.

and jesus said its Gods work so either way. your in error

in your own mind.

Again the response of one who has not the slightest idea about what Paul spoke about when he said salvation comes not by works.

 

[Jim]

Demons do believe in God, as indicated in the Bible, specifically in James 2:19, which states, "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

That is not true. Demons do believe that God exists, but they do not place their confidence and trust in God. Thus thet believe that God exists but they do not believe in God, i.e., they do not have faith in God. That was a major message of James.

 

[synergy]

those things are not getting baptized. Doing good deeds. obeying Gods commands.
they are all required to repent and recieve christ.
I have never seen anyone twist as much as you do in a feeble attempt to convince yourself your right.
It will not fool me

Do you deny that God graced us with free will? My statements are certainly trying to twist your erroneous presuppositions into the right direction.

yeah, You want to continue with things that happened for the last 4000 years. and think your works, your obedience makes you right with God.
I worry that if jesus came today, how would you react
like the religious jew. who you resemble

Now you’re resorting to baseless Ad Hominems because you’ve been nailed for barking against practices that were given up 2000 years ago.

Can you focus on the word of God without the Ad Hominems? Is that too much to ask of you?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If you deny the warnings in Scripture specifically addressed to believers, you ARE throwing your Bible out.

I am not denying warnings.

I am putting them in proper context

You want to deny the cross. well I guess thats on you

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yet that faith is man’s responsibility

yes but it is the work of God

God gets credit if he trusts, because God took him to where he could trust..

man get credit if he fails to repent. because God still took him where he could trust. But he rejected Gods call

 

[Dizerner]

Paul means works of the Law, and by that, meritorious works, or actions attempting to contribute virtue and worth.

Paul certainly believed our faith meant we have to actually do things, not give one moment of mental assent.

And this is why the Holy Spirit inspired James (really Jacob) to balance Paul out.

 

[synergy]

I had my kids baptized or sprinkled as infants. and I defend james so much also.

is that why they are angry at me?

I’m not angry at anyone. That’s you projecting your anger to others.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That continued faith is also man's responsibility.

No "one and done" with God.

People do not lose faith in trustworthy people

I am sorry you think God is not very trustworthy that people would even think of losing faith

then again, you do not trust the cross. so i can understand why you would think as you do..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"

Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.

Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."

Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."

Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.

John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.

Brother

Will you please listen

I NEVER SAID IT WAS GOD'S FAITH

I said GOD HELPED US IN HIS WORK TO BRING US TO TRUST HIM Istop trusting self. or repent from unbelief to faith).

why is it people seem so hard to understand?

I love you bro. But you appear to be looking at me from an anticalvinist calvinist lens and not hearing what I am saying.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I keep telling you that the works of the Law practice was given up 2000 years ago. Keep barking up that wrong tree if it makes you feel better.

There is no need to go further

This is not about works of the law

its about work

You work to earn a reward, an Olympian has to work long hours and hard hours daily to work up to the place they can perform so on race day they can attempt to go earn a reward.

When you see the word works in scripture. It does not always mean law..

You want to work like the olympian to earn salvation as a reward. feel free. YOU WILL FAIL

you want to fall on you rknees as the tax collector and recieve the grace gift of salvation through trusting him, Paul and the rest ofus will welcome you to the family

 

[Dizerner]

People do not lose faith in trustworthy people

I am sorry you think God is not very trustworthy that people would even think of losing faith

God's trustworthiness does not somehow force no one to sin.

What kind of ridiculous logic is this even? (hint: it's monergism)

Can you not take one step back and see the extreme absurdities your position has cornered you into?

Let God be true, and EVERY MAN a liar.

How dare you even begin to insinuate that all our failures towards God are somehow HIS fault.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again the response of one who has not the slightest idea about what Paul spoke about when he said salvation comes not by works.

once again, you fail to respond..

Are you just a troll?

here to attack everyone who does not agree with you. because you can not respond in kind?

i do nto know what else to think