Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Dizerner]

Which denomination was the original church D?

No modern denomination accurately reflects the specific belief sets of the recorded early church fathers, and they did not by any means agree with each other, sometimes changed their opinions over time, and sometimes even contradict themselves.

There are shared beliefs among most denominations, but there is no one to one correlation, nor any unbroken change of passed down doctrine or officially bestowed authority, from the first apostles—these things are only claimed to bolster a specific denomination.

It might seem like a "nice" way to establish the correct church, but it doesn't work and it's not the Biblical way.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes,, we will never be unadopted by God. But an adopted child, just like a natural child, can cut himself off completely from his adoptive parents. So also the child of God can separate himself from God.

so you can overpower God

God it

we must be baptized

and we can overpower God and walk away as an antichrist. even though John said those people were never of us

 

[Dizerner]

grace is not free.

I am not using "Free Grace" in a literal sense, this is the self-applied label for a theological group.

I hope that can be readily understood.

For example, if I say "I don't agree with Baptists," that does not mean I think water baptism is wrong.

It's a label.

Historically, this genre has previously been labeled "Super Grace" and "Hyper Grace" in the past.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I am not using "Free Grace" in a literal sense, this is the self-applied label for a theological group.

I hope that can be readily understood.

lol, we know what you mean

You think Grace is not free. You have to pay for it

For example, if I say "I don't agree with Baptists," that does not mean I think water baptism is wrong.

It's a label.

We know what you think

and my post still stands Grace is not fre it is paid for. Like your salvation was paid for. "paid in full" or "it is finished" Jesus said

receive his grace. and he will save you

 

[GodsGrace]

No modern denomination accurately reflects the specific belief sets of the recorded early church fathers, and they did not by any means agree with each other, sometimes changed their opinions over time, and sometimes even contradict themselves.

I agree.
Although some doctrine is incorrect,,,
I'd have to say that the CC and the Nazarene church are the closest to the OC.

Also, the ECFs agreed on most teachings,,especially the first couple of hundred years.
I can only think of Augustine that changed his mind, and he was from the 5th century and that's too far gone for me anyway.

There are shared beliefs among most denominations, but there is no one to one correlation, nor any unbroken change of passed down doctrine or officially bestowed authority,

This I do not agree with.
Jesus blessed the Apostles...
the Apostles blessed the next generation.
and so forth.
This is §Apostolic succession and I do agree that it has taken place.
Although, I believe each denomination has the authority of God to teach and preach.

from the first apostles—these things are only claimed to bolster a specific denomination.

I'd say the CC and the OC both can claim Apostolic succession.

It might seem like a "nice" way to establish the correct church, but it doesn't work and it's not the Biblical way.

What other way is there??

 

[GodsGrace]

lol, we know what you mean

You think Grace is not free. You have to pay for it

We know what you think

and my post still stands Grace is not fre it is paid for. Like your salvation was paid for. "paid in full" or "it is finished" Jesus said

receive his grace. and he will save you

No EG.
You do NOT understand what free grace or cheap grace means.

It means WE pay nothing for God's grace.
We cheapen it by making statements that do not agree with what Jesus taught.

If we claim that our works are like filthy rags,,,,then we CHEAPEN GOD'S grace.

God's grace is precious and we should treat it as such and obey what God teaches.
And let's remember that Jesus is God and what Jesus taught should be obeyed.

 

[Dizerner]

What other way is there??

Scripture is very clear that as explicated by the Holy Spirit it is sufficient for all things for life and godliness.

The reason both early Christians and later Christians all gravitate to false doctrines and strife, is the sin nature.

There are many believers who come to complete agreement on all major doctrines with just the Word and Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture is very clear that as explicated by the Holy Spirit it is sufficient for all things for life and godliness.

The reason both early Christians and later Christians all gravitate to false doctrines and strife, is the sin nature.

There are many believers who come to complete agreement on all major doctrines with just the Word and Spirit.

I agree with the above but with one caveat.
There are differences between those that use the method you've stated.

IF there is a difference, and a big difference, I learned some years ago to go to the early theologians and see what THEY believed (If they agreed of course).

I've found this to be very helpful.
It's not a method everyone might agree on.
No problem.
As far as I can tell (no expert here) they agreed with scripture.

 

[Dizerner]

lol, we know what you mean

You think Grace is not free. You have to pay for it

I do think grace is free in the sense of being unable to contribute an equivalent worth to receive it, but I do not think grace is free in the sense of absolutely having no conditions whatsoever to receive it.

The only logically consistent "free grace" by the latter definition are Universalists.

 

[Dizerner]

IF there is a difference, and a big difference, I learned some years ago to go to the early theologians and see what THEY believed (If they agreed of course).

I have learned some true and interesting things from them, but also be aware they also made profound mistakes. I do not at all think Christ forsakes his church or his people when they fall into false doctrine, and God works through impure vessels.

For example, Origen was clearly an intellectual genius and extremely diligent in his studies, but he fell into many false doctrines like Universalism and the preexistence of souls, yet he would visit Christians about to be martyred and encourage them to keep their faith. Tertullian was the first I know of to clearly articulate the Trinity and Original Sin, and yet later he fell into Montanism, a kind of legalistic gnosticism.

Let us never blindly trust any saint of any time, but always "take it to the Lord in prayer."

 

[Studyman]

If you are only here to accuse me then we are rapidly done talking.



I don't use tactics, that's a mean thing to say.



Aha, now my alleged tactic is inspired by the devil.

Your warm and cozy brotherly love is showing.



Okay, I allegedly can't understand God, the judgement list becomes longer and longer.



I don't feel offended, but your post is offending, two different things.



I can not blame them, you don't discuss, you accuse.



Yeah right, Romans 6, what started our discussion.

Rom 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

And what did you do?

Luke 22:20 - And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

You ignored this text.

That's the new covenant.

Then do what you preach and don't ignore Luke 22:20, notable Jesus own words and most likely the origin for Paul's teaching when he speaks about the Law of Moses.

My stated point from the very beginning, was to explain that you can not understand Paul, if you only listen to just a % of what he says. You can't understand Romans 6, if you only listen to 2 of the 23 sentences Paul used to teach his message.

You can't understand a Road sign, if you only read 1/2 of the words therein. You can't build a cake, if you don't consider all the instructions of the recipe. You can't understand your mother or father's instruction, if you only listen to "some" of their words. You can't understand your children, if you don't listen to what they are are saying. You can't understand how to build a house, if you only read 1/2 of the blueprint. This is indisputable truth of this world God placed us in. You can get all mad and offended at me, because I pointed this out to you, or you can exercise just a little bit of humility, and admit that these things are true.

God pointed this undeniable universal fact of the World HE placed me in, in the first 3 books of the bible. Both you are I are taught by this world's religious system, the same as Eve was taught, to only "USE" whichever of God's Word we can USE, to justify ourselves, to promote a religion or to promote an opinion.

And this is used by a religious system to promote a religion which rejects God's judgments and creates their own, rejects God's Statutes and creates their own high days, rejects God's Sabbaths and creates their own sabbaths, "and many other such things they do". This too, is undeniable, indisputable Fact of this world God placed me in.

In this religion, a popular religion of this world no doubt, you are taught that you are no longer obligated to honor and respect God with obedience to His Judgments Statutes and commandments.

In the exact same way Eve was taught that she is no longer obligated to honor and resect God with obedience to His instruction..

And to justify this philosophy you said to me, basically, "Hath God not said, we are not under the law"? And truly, it is truly written, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace".

In the exact same way that the "other voice" in the garden God placed Eve in, promoted its philosophy.

And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And truly, it is truly written "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat".

This is exactly what happened to Eve as I showed you. I'm not saying you are satan, don't be a child. I'm just pointing out what the "course of this world" has taught both you and I to "use" the bible for.

And in both cases, when a person considers more of what is actually written, God's message to Adam and Eve was not, "You can eat freely of "Every Tree" in the garden", just as God wasn't teaching us through Paul in Romans 6, that Not being "under the Law" means "no longer obligated to "Yield ourselves" a servant to obey God".

You "used" Luke 22:20 in the same way, for the exact same purpose, to promotes the exact same philosophy. Ironically, if you would considered ALL of the Word's Jesus spoke, you would know that it was the Christ who gave Moses God's Laws in the First place.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No EG.
You do NOT understand what free grace or cheap grace means.

will you please STOP trying to tell me what I do or do not know.

I am about sick of it

It is a mock against people like me who place their faith in God to save me, and keep me saved. because in my humility I know I can not now or ever save myself

It means WE pay nothing for God's grace.
We cheapen it by making statements that do not agree with what Jesus taught.

Then why do you and @Dizerner keep saying you must pay for Gods grace with your obedience?

If we claim that our works are like filthy rags,,,,then we CHEAPEN GOD'S grace.

If your tryign to earn salvation by your obedience, they are filthy rags

God does not care what we claim. He cares about the truth.

I can claim I am saved all day long. If I do not have saving faith based on my repentance. I am still dead in the sea of sin, I am just deceived that I am living in paradise.

which sadly so many people do

God's grace is precious and we should treat it as such and obey what God teaches.

Those born of God do this. how many times do you have to be told this? Those born of God can not live in sin (1 John 3)

God changes us,, sin is poison to us. when we do it. It puts a bad taste in our mouth. not to mention we are chastened by God.

Those who think a child of God can live in sin, I just doubt they really know God or have experienced his love or chastening or new birth.. Because I do not for the life of me understand how else they would even think this

And let's remember that Jesus is God and what Jesus taught should be obeyed.

Amen

So when are you going to obey everything?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Scripture is very clear that as explicated by the Holy Spirit it is sufficient for all things for life and godliness.

The reason both early Christians and later Christians all gravitate to false doctrines and strife, is the sin nature.

There are many believers who come to complete agreement on all major doctrines with just the Word and Spirit.

amazingly. Those born of God have the HS who will do as he did to Jonah and put road blocks in their way.

Trust God.. I do.. why can't you?

God does not fail.. And you can not overpower God.

 

[JLB]

yeah it is

when are you going to start reading them?

I do not know many churches who do not respect God.. But sadly I know many who disrespect God by adding religion and self righteousness into the gospel of christ..

Well I am not Calvinist. If you and your peeps would stop trying to attack a group of people and realize that most people you talk to are not Calvinist. and start listening to them, You may start to see some truth revealed to you.

Until then, your and everyone else like you will be blinded by your hatred and war against a group of people who have no power over you. Its quite telling

Yes. He placed doubt in Eve's mind that God is not a God who has the truth. Saying God is trying to deceive you.. He can not be trusted.

So why are you doing the very thing Satan did to Eve? causing mistrust and fear among those seeking God?

No. Wrong understanding of what really happened

simplicity in christ.

Why do you take the simplicity in christ. and destroy it with all your rules and regulations and good deeds and boasting?

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Hebrews 5:9

Eternal life is given to those who obey Him.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I do think grace is free in the sense of being unable to contribute an equivalent worth to receive it,

but this is what you teach. whether you see it or not. this is what you teach

but I do not think grace is free in the sense of absolutely having no conditions whatsoever to receive it.

and here you just proved my point

Grace is free to the reciever. it is a gift. It must be recieved through faith. and it is not from ourselves. and it is not by works.

eph 2: 8-10 is very precise in this matter

The only logically consistent "free grace" by the latter definition are Universalists.

then you would only call a universalist a free gracer. and not people like me

 

[Dizerner]

then you would only call a universalist a free gracer. and not people like me

By your definition of grace, that is correct.

But I will respect people's labels even when they are inconsistent.

 

[Dizerner]

amazingly. Those born of God have the HS who will do as he did to Jonah and put road blocks in their way.

I think I had a stroke reading this, no idea what you meant by it.

 

[JLB]

Good post, but it's not just Calvinism.

The Baptist denomination is absolutely infested with OSAS, and "Free Grace" theology has been on the rise.

So true.

Whatever you call the “umbrella” of delusion they are operating in, whether Reformed Theology, Calvinism, OSAS, to me it’s all called THE LIE.

The words of Jesus Christ in the New Testament are the truth.


as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16

Man made theology that twists the scriptures to their own destruction is called THE LIE.


and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12

 

[JLB]

God does not intend for us to consider Him a stern Judge peering over the bench at the accused. Yet many believers have this very perception of Him. For some reason they never get out of the courtroom and into the family room. To them God is always a Judge, never a Father.

This view is so unfortunate. But even worse, it leads to doubting the doctrine of eternal security.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God loves us deeply as He loves all the people of the world.


Do you believe that?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
Hebrews 5:9

Eternal life is given to those who obey Him.

and who obey him? Who overcomes the world?

1 John 3: 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

if a person who is born of God can not live in sin, by defenition, they obey him

1 John 5:4-5
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

its not our obedience that overcomes, ITS OUR FAITH. it BECAUSE we were BORN OF GOD.

God changes us.. I pray soon you and those like you realise this, start trusting god and stop trusting self