John Evens
Active Member
That is beautiful, so nice to hear the word like that, without all the commentary and opinions.
Excellent Discussion on OSAS
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GodsGrace
Active Member
Paul warns against losing salvation.
How many verses do you need?
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 Corinthians 9:27
27But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Revelation 2:4-5
4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place -unless * you repent.
Hebrews 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so * that none * of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
There are plenty more....
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GodsGrace
Active Member
Agreed.
Salvation requires both.
I really don't understand why you keep repeating that God's standard is perfection.
Jesus is perfect.
We abide in Jesus BECAUSE we are not perfect.
As long as we ABIDE in Jesus we will be safe.
GodsGrace
Active Member
I didn't read the link...And what is someone the takes back a gift they freely gave?
Can Someone Take a Gift Back Legally?
Explore the legal nuances of gift giving, including conditions and circumstances that may allow for a gift to be legally reclaimed.legalclarity.org
but
engagement rings must be given back if the relationship is dissolved by the woman.
Because the relationship, for which the ring was a symbol, no longer exists.
Salvation is a gift.
But we have to want it and we have to keep it and not throw it back in God's face.
I hope this is what the link spoke to....
GodsGrace
Active Member
Hi DB
I don't intend to get into this because it's a nuance and it's not worth it....
but earning something and meriting something are totally different.
I'd say that we cannot earn our salvation....
but we do merit our salvation.
To earn means an agreement to work to receive payment.
To merit means that a good work deserves a reward.
Do you agree? (or am I the only person that understands this???)
Aaron
Active Member
Now that sounds good. I didn't look at the link. If I receive a really good gift I get an insurance policy on it. And if you want it back I report it stolen after I hide it.
GodsGrace
Active Member
You're too smart for your own good !!Now that sounds good. I didn't look at the link. If I receive a really good gift I get an insurance policy on it. And if you want it back I report it stolen after I hide it.
( is this Christianly??!)
Aaron
Active Member
I stand on 1 John 1:9, which states that if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It emphasizes the importance of acknowledging our wrongdoings and the assurance of God's forgiveness.
Christianly 101
Aaron
Active Member
@GodsGrace
In reality my insurance policy is to abide in Jesus. To me that means to maintain a close, continuous relationship with Jesus, characterized by my dependence, obedience, and a commitment to His teachings. It involves being spiritually connected to Him, much like a branch is to a vine, allowing His life and strength to flow through me.
In reality my insurance policy is to abide in Jesus. To me that means to maintain a close, continuous relationship with Jesus, characterized by my dependence, obedience, and a commitment to His teachings. It involves being spiritually connected to Him, much like a branch is to a vine, allowing His life and strength to flow through me.
John Evens
Active Member
My Mom would tell me "You’re too smart for your own britches" It's a mash up of “you’re too smart for your own good” and “too big for your britches”
synergy
Active Member
Universalism is the belief that all humankind will be saved. So since that is God's will and calvinists believe that man has no say in that matter then all calvinists are by definition Universalists.
So all those billions of people who have never heard of Christ and therefore never had the chance to believe him "will be judged because they did not believe"? Seriously???
@Studyman
As you do this, to add to your unscriptural demeanor, you present a false humility as though you are only seeking God in the manner in which His word teaches, when in fact you are guilty of mixing Moses' laws with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which laws Moses gave to Israel were intended only for Israel and only until Christ, I'm speaking of Israel's laws contained in ordinances, not the moral law that that was to be used as a schoolmaster to teach God's people their need of Christ, never to be used as a means of eternal life, but could and should ever be the means as the rule of life, but mainly given as a schoolmaster for God's people, to show them of their sinful nature and to show them their need of Jesus Christ's being the only means provided by God to be trusted in as the only source of eternal life for God's elect.
1) As the OT priesthood died off, replaced by NT priesthood of Jesus Christ and his saints ~ (we all all priests and kings.)
2) We are not living under the OT covenant of WORKS, but grace ~ meaning that the revelation of pure grace is now revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ under the revelation of the new covenant~ God FREELY forgives sinners based upon his grace alone through the redemption work of Jesus Christ, forgiven FREELY on Christ's behalf, not on any work considered on man's part, but only the work of Christ acting as the surety of God's elect, works are excluded in the salvation from sin and condemnation, (under the first covenant God's law did not provide any forgiveness for sinners, it only pronounced DEATH on the transgressors ~ yet under the new covenant where sin abounded grace hath much more abounded through Jesus' obedience and righteousness, that he secured for his people.
Studyman, you are desperately trying to mix OT with the NT revelation of pure grace ~ not that there was no grace in the OT, it was indeed, but it was not the system they lived under and fully understood, that revelation came with Christ, and his gospel. Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness.
True believers trust in Christ alone for their righteousness in order to enter into eternal life in the world to come, we dare not trust in works of the law, many of which you are trusting in, in order to please God and to be accpeted before him. Just as Moses said: the righteousness that comes from the law can only come to a man, who lives according to each one of them perfectly, in thought, word, and deed ~ from conception until death, it shows NO MERCY in breaking one of them, a man must keep all of them perfectly. Sin in point point, that man is guilty of all of them and must die. Thereby, as I said: "True believers trust in Christ alone for their righteousness in order to enter into eternal life in the world to come, we dare not trust in works of the law" ~works can be defined as any commandment a man has an active part in, that would be considered as a work of the LAW..."This DO and live, sin, and die" is the language of Moses' law.
All of your post are directed at other folks who disagree with YOUR RELIGIOUS PRACTICES of mixing law with grace ~ laws meant only to be temporary in nature until the coming of Christ, as though they are not as sincere as you are, and they do not seek God to the degree you do ~ you make false claims that they cherry pick the scriptures, and a list of others ad hominem (in a way that is directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining).
As you do this, to add to your unscriptural demeanor, you present a false humility as though you are only seeking God in the manner in which His word teaches, when in fact you are guilty of mixing Moses' laws with the gospel of Jesus Christ, which laws Moses gave to Israel were intended only for Israel and only until Christ, I'm speaking of Israel's laws contained in ordinances, not the moral law that that was to be used as a schoolmaster to teach God's people their need of Christ, never to be used as a means of eternal life, but could and should ever be the means as the rule of life, but mainly given as a schoolmaster for God's people, to show them of their sinful nature and to show them their need of Jesus Christ's being the only means provided by God to be trusted in as the only source of eternal life for God's elect.
Agreed, but NO ONE here has ever defend that OT priesthood...Strawman fallacy Studyman. What we are against is this:
1) As the OT priesthood died off, replaced by NT priesthood of Jesus Christ and his saints ~ (we all all priests and kings.)
Revelation 5:10
“And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.”...............(on the new earth, not on this present earth)2) We are not living under the OT covenant of WORKS, but grace ~ meaning that the revelation of pure grace is now revealed in the gospel of Jesus Christ under the revelation of the new covenant~ God FREELY forgives sinners based upon his grace alone through the redemption work of Jesus Christ, forgiven FREELY on Christ's behalf, not on any work considered on man's part, but only the work of Christ acting as the surety of God's elect, works are excluded in the salvation from sin and condemnation, (under the first covenant God's law did not provide any forgiveness for sinners, it only pronounced DEATH on the transgressors ~ yet under the new covenant where sin abounded grace hath much more abounded through Jesus' obedience and righteousness, that he secured for his people.
Studyman, you are desperately trying to mix OT with the NT revelation of pure grace ~ not that there was no grace in the OT, it was indeed, but it was not the system they lived under and fully understood, that revelation came with Christ, and his gospel. Christ is the END OF THE LAW for righteousness.
Romans 10:4,5
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."True believers trust in Christ alone for their righteousness in order to enter into eternal life in the world to come, we dare not trust in works of the law, many of which you are trusting in, in order to please God and to be accpeted before him. Just as Moses said: the righteousness that comes from the law can only come to a man, who lives according to each one of them perfectly, in thought, word, and deed ~ from conception until death, it shows NO MERCY in breaking one of them, a man must keep all of them perfectly. Sin in point point, that man is guilty of all of them and must die. Thereby, as I said: "True believers trust in Christ alone for their righteousness in order to enter into eternal life in the world to come, we dare not trust in works of the law" ~works can be defined as any commandment a man has an active part in, that would be considered as a work of the LAW..."This DO and live, sin, and die" is the language of Moses' law.
Who would not know these things, you are saying these things to hide your true purpose of clinging to Moses instead of 100% following the NT.
You make these outlandish statements that NO ONE is accusing you of...but, this is your MO in all of your post. You are either unable to debate properly, or, you are practicing deceit, which is very unchristian. The gentleman asked:
He never said that you refusing to kill goats for your sins is you going against God's commandments, that's you adding to his word to make you seem to be right in your overall teachings ~ he simple asked questions to help you see that Moses law had many commandments that are NOT enforce on us anymore, and that if you seek to keep some of them, then are you keeping all of them? if not, then you truly are not obeying Moses' law, it is just that simple. A wise man once said: Inconsistency is the hallmark of error being present!
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synergy
Active Member
You tried multiple times to prove that regeneration occured in OT times and you failed each and every time. It's time to face the Biblical truth that @Jim is talking about.I'm marking this to come back later, since I'm short of time today, but hope to address this before the sun goes back down, and truly if not even up yet.
As for Nicodemus, Jesus did mention the necessity of water (and Spirit obviously) and later, in the very same chapter, John's Baptism ministry and the Baptism of Jesus is mentioned. No coincidence there. Everything aligns perfectly together to shoot down any calvinist presupposition.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
no he dopes not
again, 1 verse would suffice.
1. This is written to jews
2. This is a warning not to go back to the law
3. The law you can fall away. they would be returning to sacrifice and burnt offering
The warning is, if you fall away (if it were possible) you could not be resaved,
4. Finally. sayin you can lose salvation puts christ to open shame, it states his dead was not enough. he has to come back and finish what he started.
Yes. we see this today. the churches are emptying out. It seems like every time I drive out in the country I see another church that has closed its doors and boarded up its windows.
this is not saying people will lose salvation. its saying the churches will lose its people because people walk away.. Kids do not stay the churches get so small. they can not afford to keep their building open anymore
Disqualified to teach the gospel.
Not to enter heaven
Paul understands on his own, he is already disqualified.
This is to a church. not induviduals.
Is our faith real? Or was it mere belief?
I am still waiting for one that in context proves that eternal life. the seal of the spirit. the promise he will never leave nor forsake us. the promise he will raise us from the dead. the promise we will never hunger or thirst. and the promise we will live forever are lies. are fabrications, are false promises from God.
I have yet to find one And nothing you copied here did anything to change my view. because in context. they do nto say what you claim
I have never said people were saved by baptism. God is the only savior. And He has promised to save the repentant believer who is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the gift, the indwelling, Holy Spirit..
Thinking one is obeying the law of Moses while picking and choosing the parts of the law one desires to obey is self deception.
All of the law of Moses has been abolished. All of the law of Moses has been nailed to the cross.
Physical circumcision is not required in the New Covenant.
The law of Moses was the wall separating Jew and Gentile.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
then paul is a liar
Jesus is a liar
I might as well throw my bible out. I can nto trust it.
John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)
John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)
John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)
John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)
John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)
John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)
John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)
EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)
eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)
rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)
rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)
Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE. But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)
2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)
Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
this is what our faith is in, the grace and mercy of God. not our deeds.
so again, paul and jesus both reject this faith plus works theology
Because it is reality
if you want to earn your salvation by your works. that is what is required.
otherwise you must be saved by grace through faith
Yes he was. he fullfilled the law. and through it became the lamb of god that took away your sin
we trust him because we are not perfect. knowing he will never leave nor forsake us. because we will never meet his demand. we are forced to continually trust in him
I was save the moment i trusted Jesus. as far as eternity goes
I was never promised a life here on earth that will be free of evil and persecution.
if that's what your looking for..
Doug Brents
Active Member
I see what you are saying, and I think you are on the right track here.
There is no payment for services rendered in salvation. God has not agreed with us that if you live by My rules, and obey me for a certain amount of time then you will get this payment.
But He has said that if you are my servant, and you honor me through your words, deeds, and thoughts, then I will gift you with things far beyond what you deserve.
It's kind of like the end of year bonuses people used to get from their jobs. The wage they earned all year is payment received for a certain work as agreed when hired. But the end of year bonus is not an earned payment; it's a gift from the owner. Maybe the only reason it is "deserved" is because you are an employee (you might even be getting fired next week, but you are an employee today so you get the gift).
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
then you must earn your salvation, through works of merit
salvation is a GIFT. NOT A REWARD. IT CAN NOT BE EARNED, NOR CAN I BE MERITED
understands what?
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