Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

Why does Paul warn against something that cannot happen?

He does not warn against losing salvation.

He taught against those who said we had to earn salvation.

context would be your best friend.

everything paul said concerning himself had eternal security in mind..

 

[JLB]

I strive against all Sin. I don't cherry pick God's Commandments and Judge them as you do, some as worthy of my respect and honor, and judge others as unworthy my respect and honor. I don't adopt the religious traditions of this world that Judge God and His Words, as you do. After all, He is God. And I am instructed to "Yield myself" to Him, not judge Him, as you do.


If I lived under the Priesthood "After the Order of Aaron", AKA, the "Levitical Priesthood", I would take animals to the Levite Priest as a sacrifice for my sins. But I would strive against Sin, as the Law and Prophets promote, like Caleb, Joshua, Daniel, Shadrack, David, Isaiah, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, and actually EVERY Example of Faithful man given in the Holy Scriptures. Because As it is written:

1 Sam. 15: And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey "is better" than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

But the Levitical Priesthood was only temporary in it conception, and was prophesied to grow old and pass away, "After those days". I guess you have not been taught this by your adopted religion, but Jesus is God's High Priest now. And we are now under a New Priesthood, "After the Order of Melchizedek".

So if I sacrificed animals for my sins "today", I would be "guilty" of transgressing the Law of Moses.

Duet. 18: 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words "which he shall speak in my name", I will require it of him.

So to obey the Law of Moses, I was to abide by the Levitical Priesthood sacrifices and burnt offerings for sin, until God's Prophesied NEW High Priest came. And then I was to listen to Him, as to how to be forgiven.

Perhaps your religious sect didn't teach this to you either, but Jesus didn't tell me to offer sacrificial animals to the Levite Priest to provide for the forgiveness of my sins.

So no, I do not offer animal sacrifices for my sins today, because that would be against the Law and Moses, who commanded "that I listen to the New High Priest when HE gets here".

Perhaps you should consider "Yielding yourself" a servant to obey God, instead of this world religions. If you did, you wouldn't be asking such foolish and stupid questions.


You have no clue about God, His Son, God's Laws, the Law and Prophets, etc. Only those who didn't believe Moses and the Prophets, would still sacrifice animals for their sins, after the Prophesied Priest of God has come.

You are still persuaded that refusing to kill goats for my sins, is somehow against God's Commandants. I almost feel sorry for you that this is the case. But then, Jesus did say:

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they "hear not Moses" and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



This is true no doubt, and written in the Holy Scriptures. But taking a goat to a Levite priest and killing it for my sins today, would be in direct violation of the Law of Moses I posted, and a direct spit in the face of God who Loved me so much as to give me His only begotten Son. And a Spit in the face of the Jesus "of the Bible", who Moses said would come and commanded that I should listen to Him. Who offered His Own Blood once and for all, just as Jeremiah prophesied.


So now what JLB? Will you completely ignore God's Words shown to you here, like you did the last two replies of yours, and move on to the next fallacy?

I’m still waiting for your answer?

Do you believe people should be put to death for violating the Sabbath laws that were instituted under the law of Moses?

Yes?
No?


What’s your answer?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Agreed.

And if I believe, I will obey.

Great, that'
s what paul said believers do (eph 2: 10)
But you were saved by grace the moment you believed before you did one work. (if you truly believed)

Obedience requires works.

Salvation required faith. not works

No scripture today.
Too busy and have to leave till later.

Agreed.

Agreed,,,except to say that we're not supposed to sin.
It sounds, again, like you're saying we could sin and still be saved....
IOW,,, as if it's not so bad to sin.

look at it this way

God standard is perfection.

can you meet that standard?

I can;t and I am not going to fool myself into thinking i can

since I can not meet that standard.. is saying we will sin the same as saying I can sin all i want.

no..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48​

Yes we must keep trying.

This sounds like an impossible standard Jesus is placing before us. How can we be as perfect as God? What did Jesus mean?

it is an impossible standard

That's why Jesus said it

If you want to (as the pharisees and many jews believed they could ) be saved by obedience to Gods law.

then here is the standard.

be perfect as your faith in heaven is perfect.

if you can't do this

then turn to me,, and grace

 

[GodsGrace]

I thought you would never ask. I have a long and shout answer. Lets go for the long. It starts with Jesus and what He taught in His three year ministry.

I have noticed that a lot of times when Jesus was asked a question He would answer with a question of His own. One that would make you stop and think. Then once He has your attention His teaching sums up some deep spiritual truth.

For us Matthew 5:48 is a call to make Christ’s standard a way of life as we obey His teachings. Life is about nothing if not about choices. From the moment we rise until the time we go to sleep, life is all about choosing. And it’s the collection of little, daily choices that eventually reveals what our “big” choices are. Choosing to follow Christ in the little things is evidence that we have given Him our whole heart.

15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord
Joshua 24:15.

Well, I'm happy I asked!
You've given a most excellent answer.

As to little choices and big choices...
Jesus did teach on this:


Luke 16:10
10 "He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.


This works for grace too.
The more grace we need, the more God gives to us.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The question is, how is He received.

Again,

John tells us

1. John 1, But as many as have recieved him
2. John 3, Whoever believes is not condemned, belief by looking to the cross..
3. John 4. Ask and he will give us living water flowing to eternal life
5 . John 5 he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 6. work for the food which endures forever. eat this bread from heaven, and you will never hunger, never thirst. Live forever. Have eternal life. Shall not be lost. Will be ressurected.

no works involved.

Not through "belief/faith only". That is a fallacy that has permeated the Church. There is only one place in all Scripture where "faith only", "belief only" (or any similar phrase) is found, and that is in James 2:24 where it says that we are justified NOT by faith alone.

faith minus works equals faith only

sadly early in the church and throughout its beginnings up till the time rime made it the church of rome. Legalism was sdtrong.. inspit of being destroyed by Paul

So coming to Atlanta to pick up the car that I purchased for you means you deserve the car? You earned the $1,000,000 car because you walked, drove, hitchhiked, or in some other way got yourself to Atlanta? What value does any of that contribute to me? Or to the dealer? Or to anyone?

Have I pumped my chest or boasted about any good works I have done? No. My only boasting is in Jesus who forgave (and continues to forgive) my sins because of His great mercy.

dude, get off that example. I already destroyed it. if you gave it to me as a gift. and I have to pay anything for it. then it was not a gift. period

You were saved by grace alone.

if you add any works.. you reject grace.

i

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, we are.

we are not Israel

God did not promise us a plot of land in the middle east

Wrong. Ethnic Judaism is of no value at all to God.

lol. It does nto matter, God gave them a gift and a purpose.

that purpose will still be fulfilled

Any ethnic Jew who believes in Jesus remains part of Israel, but any ethnic Jew who does not believe in Jesus is cut off from Israel. And any Gentile who believes in Jesus will be grafted into Israel, but any Gentile who does not believe in Jesus will remain cut off from Israel. But it is the same Israel to whom the promises were made.

yawn

Originally, the promise appeared to be a physical land, but in reality the promise was of Heaven, a spiritual land (Heb 11:13-16).

the promise was physical land. and still is

heavenly jerusalem was promised to EVERY NATION.

IN YOU SHALL EVER NATION BE BLESSED

 

[GodsGrace]

The reason that I read your post and then disagree is because I have taken the time to study up on it.

You've studied the early church fathers and their teaching on original sin and then you also studied how
Augustine change it?

Very few do.

If so, I do have just one question for you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Counting yours we have two good answers so far.

both were bad answers. when taken in context.

Jesus is speaking to religious jews wqho thought they kept the law

He had just destroyed them

the law says, but I tell you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, I'm happy I asked!
You've given a most excellent answer.

As to little choices and big choices...
Jesus did teach on this:


Luke 16:10
10 "He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.


This works for grace too.
The more grace we need, the more God gives to us.

yes

Gods grace is unending. it will never run out

 

[Doug Brents]

Again,

John tells us

1. John 1, But as many as have recieved him
2. John 3, Whoever believes is not condemned, belief by looking to the cross..
3. John 4. Ask and he will give us living water flowing to eternal life
5 . John 5 he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 6. work for the food which endures forever. eat this bread from heaven, and you will never hunger, never thirst. Live forever. Have eternal life. Shall not be lost. Will be ressurected.

Again, that is only one passage that speaks of what is required to receive salvation. But there are others, and they MUST ALL AGREE.
Acts 3:19 - Repentance RESULTS in forgiveness of sins (salvation)
Rom 10:9-10 - verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS in receiving salvation
Rom 6:1-7 - die to sin in baptism, united with Christ's death and resurrection in baptism
Col 2:11-14 - sin cut from us in baptism, united with Christ's death and resurrection in baptism
1 Pet 3:21 - saved in baptism

faith minus works equals faith only

Faith minus works equals no faith

dude, get off that example. I already destroyed it. if you gave it to me as a gift. and I have to pay anything for it. then it was not a gift. period

You have not even addressed it. You traveling to pick it up is not "paying anything for it" at all.

You were saved by grace alone.

Nope, you were saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

if you add any works.. you reject grace.

WRONG!!

 

[Doug Brents]

we are not Israel

You may not be, but the Church is.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again, that is only one passage that speaks of what is required to receive salvation. But there are others, and they MUST ALL AGREE.

lol. yes they must all agree

if all these passages say no works

and others appear to say works.

then they do nto agree

Acts 3:19 - Repentance RESULTS in forgiveness of sins (salvation)
Rom 10:9-10 - verbal, public confession of Jesus as Lord RESULTS in receiving salvation
Rom 6:1-7 - die to sin in baptism, united with Christ's death and resurrection in baptism
Col 2:11-14 - sin cut from us in baptism, united with Christ's death and resurrection in baptism
1 Pet 3:21 - saved in baptism

Faith minus works equals no faith

You have not even addressed it. You traveling to pick it up is not "paying anything for it" at all.

Nope, you were saved by grace THROUGH FAITH

WRONG!!

There you go. trying to merit salvation by the work of water baptism. it finally comes out..

Good luck

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You may not be, but the Church is.

I was not promised land

and the church is Gods. not Israel..

the church did not replace Israel. The church has been Gods since Adam

 

[Doug Brents]

lol. yes they must all agree

if all these passages say no works

and others appear to say works.

then they do nto agree

There is a big difference between "good works"/"works of merit" and the conditions God placed on receiving His gift. You want to try to receive His gift without meeting His conditions, go ahead. But you will spend a very long time in a really hot, painful, miserable place.

There you go. trying to merit salvation by the work of water baptism. it finally comes out..

There is NO MERIT to baptism, any more than there is military merit to marching around a fortified, walled city for 7 days.

I was not promised land

and the church is Gods. not Israel..

the church did not replace Israel. The church has been Gods since Adam

The Church is Israel. Read Rom 11 again. From ethnic Israel, everyone who does not believe in Jesus is cut off from Israel (Rom 11:19-20). From the Gentiles, everyone who does believe in Jesus is grafted into Israel (Rom 11:17). Israel didn't cease to be God's people, but who is included in God's people and the thing that makes them God's people did change.

 

[Elliot]

Again,

John tells us

1. John 1, But as many as have recieved him
2. John 3, Whoever believes is not condemned, belief by looking to the cross..
3. John 4. Ask and he will give us living water flowing to eternal life
5 . John 5 he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
John 6. work for the food which endures forever. eat this bread from heaven, and you will never hunger, never thirst. Live forever. Have eternal life. Shall not be lost. Will be ressurected.

no works involved.


faith minus works equals faith only

sadly early in the church and throughout its beginnings up till the time rime made it the church of rome. Legalism was sdtrong.. inspit of being destroyed by Paul

dude, get off that example. I already destroyed it. if you gave it to me as a gift. and I have to pay anything for it. then it was not a gift. period

You were saved by grace alone.

if you add any works.. you reject grace.

i

And what is someone the takes back a gift they freely gave?

Can Someone Take a Gift Back Legally?

Explore the legal nuances of gift giving, including conditions and circumstances that may allow for a gift to be legally reclaimed.

legalclarity.org

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is a big difference between "good works"/"works of merit"

your right, when one does good works, they do them out of appreciation for a god who loved them, and saved them, not as works of merit, or exxppecting anythign in return

when you work expecting to get saved based on that work, whether it be before you are saved, or to stay saved, they are called works of merit,.

and the conditions God placed on receiving His gift.

a goift can not be merited by anything

The wage of sin is death.

the only work that can pay for your sin is death

that happened on the cross..

You want to try to receive His gift without meeting His conditions, go ahead. But you will spend a very long time in a really hot, painful, miserable place.

I can not meet his conditions. He gave us his conditions if we want to merit salvation. it was the law. and he said you better not break one command.

There is NO MERIT to baptism, any more than there is military merit to marching around a fortified, walled city for 7 days.

there is merit in baptism if your doing it to get saved.

just like there is merit in circumcision if they did it to get saved.

Both represent cleansing, and the baptism of hands that Only God can do

The Church is Israel. Read Rom 11 again.

No it is not. Romans 11 is pauls reminder that God is not done with the nation of israel. that one day they will all be saved.

From ethnic Israel, everyone who does not believe in Jesus is cut off from Israel (Rom 11:19-20). From the Gentiles, everyone who does believe in Jesus is grafted into Israel (Rom 11:17). Israel didn't cease to be God's people, but who is included in God's people and the thing that makes them God's people did change.

lol

it is obvious. you do not believe god keeps his promises. no wonder your trying to merit salvation

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And what is someone the takes back a gift they freely gave?

Can Someone Take a Gift Back Legally?

Explore the legal nuances of gift giving, including conditions and circumstances that may allow for a gift to be legally reclaimed.

legalclarity.org

we called that years ago a person who is an indian giver.

sadly today, that is racist to say. but the concept is the same

does God take his gifts back and why would he? Did he make a mistake?

 

[Aaron]

both were bad answers. when taken in context.

Jesus is speaking to religious jews wqho thought they kept the law

He had just destroyed them

the law says, but I tell you.

He is speaking to "
25 And great crowds followed him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan.
Mt 4:25.

It's The Sermon on the Mount

​

 

[Doug Brents]

your right, when one does good works, they do them out of appreciation for a god who loved them, and saved them, not as works of merit, or exxppecting anythign in return

when you work expecting to get saved based on that work, whether it be before you are saved, or to stay saved, they are called works of merit,.

No, they are works of faith. They have no value to God, they are not worthy of His Son's life. But they are required to receive His gift.

a goift can not be merited by anything

The wage of sin is death.

the only work that can pay for your sin is death

that happened on the cross..

I can not meet his conditions. He gave us his conditions if we want to merit salvation. it was the law. and he said you better not break one command.

We cannot meet the conditions of perfection that He requires. But we can meet the conditions He placed on receiving the substitution of His perfection for our sinful rags.

there is merit in baptism if your doing it to get saved.

There is no merit. But it is a condition He place on receiving His gift. Just as dipping in Jordan was a condition He placed on healing Naaman, and marching around the city was a condition He placed on the fall of the walls of Jericho, and giving her last piece of bread was the condition He placed on feeding the widow through the famine.

just like there is merit in circumcision if they did it to get saved.

Again, no merit. It has no value. It is not beneficial to anyone. It does not sustain life like giving food to a widow or orphan. It does not give comfort like giving shelter to the homeless. It does not prevent murder, or slander, or theft, or protect people from those things.

No it is not. Romans 11 is pauls reminder that God is not done with the nation of israel. that one day they will all be saved.

You miss so much with your narrow mindset. There is a lot more than that in Rom 11.

lol

it is obvious. you do not believe god keeps his promises. no wonder your trying to merit salvation

God DOES keep His promises. But frequently not as we think He will. If God did not keep His promises, then we have no hope of salvation whatsoever. It is only through trust in Him to keep His promises that there is any value in life.