Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[brightfame52]

Now you see what we think about your doctrine.

Your doctrine has God doing the believing for us, instead of the person doing the believing and being saved.


The Condition for being saved is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



Believe = saved

Again what you are saying is senseless, and believing is caused by the power and grace of God Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

God exerted the same power to cause us to believe as that which He exerted when raising Christ from the dead. Because in order to believe in Jesus, the True Jesus may i add, of Matt 1:21 we had to first be raised from being dead in sin Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Understand, believing in the christ of arminianism is a false christ, it doesnt even count

 

[brightfame52]

@Jim

Wrong!

No its right, its just being denied

 

[brightfame52]

@synergy

You're not listening to what I said. We all believe that the Atonement is fully complete and fully accomplished, with no need to add anything to it. Do you understand?

You just dont believe it saved them it was accomplished for. Thats not giving it its due saving credit.

 

[GodsGrace]

Again what you are saying is senseless, and believing is caused by the power and grace of God Eph 1:19

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

God exerted the same power to cause us to believe as that which He exerted when raising Christ from the dead. Because in order to believe in Jesus, the True Jesus may i add, of Matt 1:21 we had to first be raised from being dead in sin Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Understand, believing in the christ of arminianism is a false christ, it doesnt even count

Looks like we became saved, quickened together with Christ, WHILE we were dead in sin....

NOT
While we were regenerated.

No scripture will ever agree with your incorrect theology.

 

[civic]

Now you see what we think about your doctrine.

Your doctrine has God doing the believing for us, instead of the person doing the believing and being saved.


The Condition for being saved is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12



Believe = saved

Ditto

 

[civic]

@Jim

No its right, its just being denied

Wrong faith precedes regeneration in scripture.

Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!


Notice what comes first


1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.


John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.


John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows. See also John 5:24;40


John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.

Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.

Acts tells us the same order in Acts 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.

Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.

Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit

James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.

See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?

conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.


1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life

The Biblical Order Salutis

Summary of The Biblical order- notice where new life, regeneration is on the list from Scripture.

1- the preaching of the gospel- Rom 10
2- the hearing of the gospel- Rom 10
3- belief in the gospel- John 1:12
4- receiving the gospel- John 1:12
5- repentance Luke 5:32
6- the new birth that results in #7
7- salvation, eternal life- John 1:13
8- Justification- Rom 8:30
9- Sanctification- Rom 8
10- Glorification Rom 8:30


hope this helps !!!

 

[Dizerner]

And if the OSAS proponent were logically consistent, they would see every time they undermine the idea monergism is grace, they undermine their own position.

Double speak is just too easy.

Before, or after, conversion: monergism is not grace.

 

[civic]

And if the OSAS proponent were logically consistent, they would see every time they undermine the idea monergism is grace, they undermine their own position.

Double speak is just too easy.

Before, or after, conversion: monergism is not grace.

Coercion at a minimum and force most likely. It goes against Gods character.

 

[Dizerner]

Coercion at a minimum and force most likely. It goes against Gods character.

Both before and after conversion.

 

[synergy]

And if the OSAS proponent were logically consistent, they would see every time they undermine the idea monergism is grace, they undermine their own position.

Double speak is just too easy.

Before, or after, conversion: monergism is not grace.

Yes. Monergism denies how we've been graced with a mind, volition, and free will. It's an attack against how God formed us, the talents He gave us, the good works He preordained us with, and the responsibilities that go with all that He has graced us with.

It's interesting in your video that it's Augustine's teachings, once again, that marks the beginnings of this gnostic OSAS belief.

 

[Dizerner]

It's interesting in your video that it's Augustine's teachings, once again, that marks the beginnings of this gnostic OSAS belief.

Augustine, interestingly, actually ended his life going back to his roots of free will against monergism.

Examine this quote later in life:

"If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, “I have not received,” because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received." — On Rebuke and Grace

 

[Selah]

Looks like we became saved, quickened together with Christ, WHILE we were dead in sin....

Yes, upon believing in Jesus Christ (faith) …

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV) 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

—selah

 

[synergy]

Augustine, interestingly, actually ended his life going back to his roots of free will against monergism.

Examine this quote later in life:

"If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, “I have not received,” because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received." — On Rebuke and Grace

I also heard that he backtracked on many of his gnostic teachings but many of his followers refused to give up on his gnostic teachings. It was his followers that encouraged his gnostic teachings and refused to acknowledge any of his recants. What an absolute mess!

 

[Blessed]

If our salvation can be lost, our adoption into the family of God is not permanent. We can be unadopted, so to speak. Such a process, however, is never described or even alluded to in the New Testament.

Never once are believers threatened with losing membership in the family of God. Jesus taught just the opposite. As far as He was and is concerned, adoption is forever!

 

[Dizerner]

I recommend actually reading the New Testament.

It's full of warnings of apostasy.

 

[civic]

Augustine, interestingly, actually ended his life going back to his roots of free will against monergism.

Examine this quote later in life:

"If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, “I have not received,” because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received." — On Rebuke and Grace

interesting I didn't know that about him

 

[civic]

I also heard that he backtracked on many of his gnostic teachings but many of his followers refused to give up on his gnostic teachings. It was his followers that encouraged his gnostic teachings and refused to acknowledge any of his recants. What an absolute mess!

yes a big mess for sure.

 

[Selah]

I recommend actually reading the New Testament.

It's full of warnings of apostasy.

Sure there is, and we can be sure that God will judge the apostates accordingly. …. But I don’t believe that the elect Christians will fall into apostasy, except for some coming close to it when the Antichrist is here claiming to be God and at that point, they become deceived; Woe! The deception will be very great during the great tribulation.

—selah

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

Wrong faith precedes regeneration in scripture.

Not one scripture states that

 

[Dizerner]

But I don’t believe that the elect Christians will fall into apostasy

God does not give warnings for decoration.

A warning with no possibility of happening is a sham, a dishonesty, and God is a God of honesty.

Let us respect God's Word and God's integrity in taking heed.