Eternal Security

[dwight92070]

The 2 Peter passage is about discipline for a believer who gets caught in old ways. They are held to a higher standard by God than a lost person. So when they do go to old ways..the discipline is more potent than if they were lost and doing those ways.

Regarding the indwelling presence.. that happens at salvation. So other verses about clinging to God are the response to having this indwelling. The 'thank you' to God for being converted by Him.

Initial salvation vs daily service. Eternal salvation vs daily faith.

Once again, you see the 2 Peter passage through your "eternal security" filter, not acknowledging what Peter said: "the last state has become worse for them than the first." What was their first state? They were lost. So that means that their last state is now worse than being lost - definitely not saved, not still a believer. The prospects of repentance are maybe possible, but close to nonexistent. Peter leaves them "returning to their own vomit" and "wallowing in the mire"- that is NOT a believer being disciplined, that is a believer who left Jesus and became an unbeliever.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Having the Son is not us clinging to Him..but His indwelling presence in our soul.

The only leaving that could happen with something actually inside us .. is from God and He says He won't leave us.

Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a physical possession.

I disagree.

 

[Behold]

It's obvious that the people Peter is mentioning in 2 Peter 2:20 have abandoned the Holy Spirit.

What is obvious, is that you don't understand "born again".

No need to "google it".

It won't help you, @dwight92070

 

[Studyman]

Once a person understands that God accepted them "while they were YET a sinner" "ungodly", and took them for eternity, based on the Cross of Christ, then the person has understood Salvation, and not until.

Rom. 5: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Paul said that the Exodus was written as examples for us not to Lust after disobedience as those examples lusted after. It's in your own Bible, 1 Cor. 10.

Paul says in this teaching, from the Spirit of Christ, "Not to be Ignorant" of some undeniable Truths of God.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and "that Rock was Christ".

So in this Gospel of Christ, the Passover Lamb was slain, "while they were yet in Egypt" (Sin), just as Paul teaches in Rom. 5.

But what happened to them? If I am to believe this world's religions, and those who promote them, then I would believe that this was the end of the Salvation of God. That God accepted them, while they were yet sinners, and therefore they are eternally secure. While this sounds great, and certainly easy and surely a very seductive religious philosophy, and is a wonderful marketing strategy to seduce men to adopt this religion over another one, as the many religions of these world compete for contributing members, without which their religious business cannot survive.

But what does Paul actually say about these people whom God Commended His Love Towards, while they were yet sinners?

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, (disobedience to God) as they also lusted.

But this is the exact opposite of what you are promoting? Let's read further as Paul continues in the Spirit of the Christ "of the Bible".

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. (Created their own high days) 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

But wait a minute. You are preaching that all these men are "eternally secure". That God accepted them, and took them for eternity. But what does Paul, who we know speaks from the Spirit of the Christ "of the Bible actually teach?

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

Now in an attempt to save face, and justify the glaring disconnect and opposition to Paul, namely, between what you are preaching, and what Paul actually taught, some men have said, "Well the Exodus is in the Old Testament".

But what does Paul actually say??

11 Now all these things happened unto them "for ensamples": and they are written for "our admonition", upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Well, why would the Spirit of Christ on Paul, want me to understand these examples? It's a miracle actually, in my view. The Christ, even in Paul's Time, saw this religious philosophy being promote here coming, and wanted me to "Not be Ignorant of God's Truth"

12 Wherefore (Because of this undeniable Truth of God) let him that thinketh he standeth (Convinced he is eternally secure) take heed lest he fall.

Thank you God through your Son, the Jesus "of the Bible" for reminding me to let this mind which is in you, remain in me.

 

[Clay]

The sheep of Christ will never perish. The sheep of Christ are held in His hand and in the Father’s hand. No man is able to pluck Christ’s sheep out of His hand or the Father’s hand.

They hear the voice of Christ, they follow Christ, and they shall never perish from Christ, for He knows (loves) them, gives them eternal life, and holds them in His hand. If a believer (one of Christ’s sheep) apostatizes, he perishes and Christ said that His sheep would never perish. Therefore no one can lose their salvation we are eternally secure.

The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:27–29.

 

[dwight92070]

The sheep of Christ will never perish. The sheep of Christ are held in His hand and in the Father’s hand. No man is able to pluck Christ’s sheep out of His hand or the Father’s hand.

They hear the voice of Christ, they follow Christ, and they shall never perish from Christ, for He knows (loves) them, gives them eternal life, and holds them in His hand. If a believer (one of Christ’s sheep) apostatizes, he perishes and Christ said that His sheep would never perish. Therefore no one can lose their salvation we are eternally secure.

The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:27–29.

So you're saying that a believer can apostatize and yet still be saved?

 

[dwight92070]

My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But in reality I am more puzzled than anything else. When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous.

Especially considering that Jesus said that he would never leave us or forsake us, if we belong to him if he is our Good Shepherd.

He also said that he is the good shepherd and that he would leave the 99 to go find that one Lost Lamb.

Then you have the fact that he gave us eternal life. If we could somehow lose our eternal life that he died to give us, then it wasn't really eternal was it.

You have no power to undo what Christ did on the cross - none of us do. But God Himself has given each of us free will, so that we are free to accept what Christ did or reject it.
Hebrews 2:1-3 "For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
Your false doctrine, eternal security, would have us believe that once we receive salvation, we automatically lose our free will - we no longer have the free will to reject Him - He is FORCING us to stay with Him. Your false doctrine makes God a tyrant.

According to your false doctrine, even if we apostatize and commit idolatry and gross sin, and deny Him, He will still force you to be in the body of Christ. But what does the scripture say?
2 Timothy 2:12 "If we deny Him, He also will deny us."
Hebrews 3:12-13 "Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God ... so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."

It's true, Jesus will never leave us or forsake us, but He will not stop us from leaving or forsaking Him.
Jesus is our Good Shepherd and He did find us, lost lambs. But once we're found, he doesn't lock us up, so we never stray again. No, He continues to give us the freedom to choose between right and wrong.

Then there's the age-old eternal security talking point: If we can lose our eternal life, then it wasn't eternal, was it? I answered that in #33.

 

[Clay]

So you're saying that a believer can apostatize and yet still be saved?

Read the parable of the Prodigal Son.

 

[Studyman]

Read the parable of the Prodigal Son.

I think you are missing Dwight's point. The prodigal son returned to his father. He amened his sinful ways. he was no longer apostatizing. Had he stayed where he was, there was no hope for him. But if he turned away from his transgressions from the heart, and returned to his father, he has hope. It might be prudent to also add, that if this son went back for a month or two until his pockets were full of money again, and pulled the same stunt again, at some point the father would know that the son was just using him to justify his lawless life, and really didn't love him at all. When that happens, it's all over.

 

[Clay]

I think you are missing Dwight's point. The prodigal son returned to his father. He amened his sinful ways. he was no longer apostatizing. Had he stayed where he was, there was no hope for him. But if he turned away from his transgressions from the heart, and returned to his father, he has hope. It might be prudent to also add, that if this son went back for a month or two until his pockets were full of money again, and pulled the same stunt again, at some point the father would know that the son was just using him to justify his lawless life, and really didn't love him at all. When that happens, it's all over.

It might be prudent to also not to add to God's word. I think you're missing the point of the parable of the lost son. The father knew exactly what was going on.

The parable of the Prodigal Son was told by Jesus Christ and is recorded in the Bible in the Gospel of Luke, specifically in chapter 15, verses 11 to 32. Jesus shared this story with his disciples, Pharisees, and tax collectors as a part of a series of parables to illustrate the nature of God's forgiveness and the joy in repentance and reconciliation.

What is apostasy and how can I recognize it?​

What is apostasy and how can I recognize it? | GotQuestions.org

What is apostasy and how can I recognize it? Why does apostasy so often go unrecognized? How can an apostate be recognized?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Adherent]

PHILIPPIANS 1:6
He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

When we stray from the flock for whatever reason God make sure we come to our senses and return Home.

 

[Studyman]

It might be prudent to also not to add to God's word. I think you're missing the point of the parable of the lost son. The father knew exactly what was going on.

The parable of the Prodigal Son was told by Jesus Christ and is recorded in the Bible in the Gospel of Luke, specifically in chapter 15, verses 11 to 32. Jesus shared this story with his disciples, Pharisees, and tax collectors as a part of a series of parables to illustrate the nature of God's forgiveness and the joy in repentance and reconciliation.

My post didn't diminish the nature of God's forgiveness, nor the humility in repentance and Joy of reconciliation. I was simply considering why Jesus chose, at that time, to tell the story.

Luke 15: 1 Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners "for to hear him".

Who drew these men to Christ? Who were they "Learned of"? Please show me the common courtesy of answering my questions. Thank you in advance.

2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, "This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them".

3 And he spake this parable "unto them", saying,

Who was it Jesus directed these Parables to, according to His Words? I look forward to your answer.

What is apostasy and how can I recognize it?​

What is apostasy and how can I recognize it? | GotQuestions.org

What is apostasy and how can I recognize it? Why does apostasy so often go unrecognized? How can an apostate be recognized?

www.gotquestions.org

I have come to learn that the internet is not a trustworthy representative of God and His Word, although "many" who come in Christ's Name, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, revere it as such.

How was I adding to God's Word? That is a pretty serious accusation. Do you have some support for it based on what I said?

 

[Clay]

How was I adding to God's Word? That is a pretty serious accusation. Do you have some support for it based on what I said?

It might be prudent to also add, that if this son went back for a month or two until his pockets were full of money again, and pulled the same stunt again, at some point the father would know that the son was just using him to justify his lawless life, and really didn't love him at all. When that happens, it's all over.

 

[Studyman]

It might be prudent to also add, that if this son went back for a month or two until his pockets were full of money again, and pulled the same stunt again, at some point the father would know that the son was just using him to justify his lawless life, and really didn't love him at all. When that happens, it's all over.

OK, you don't want to answer all my questions in which I attempt to engage in honest discussion, just the last one in which I recalled to mind the Christ "of the bibles" Words to the mainstream preachers of His Time, who also "Professed to know God".

Luke 13: 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

 

[dwight92070]

PHILIPPIANS 1:6
He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.

When we stray from the flock for whatever reason God make sure we come to our senses and return Home.

That's not God's responsibilty to make sure we come to our senses, and return home. That's ours. In the prodigal parable, do we see God speaking from heaven, telling the prodigal what he needed to do? No.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
I'm an apostate; which can be roughly defined as a defector, for example:

My mom had me baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, and when
old enough kept me attending catechism till completing First Holy Communion and
Confirmation. However; I didn't stay with The Church.

Long story short: the RCC offers no guarantees whereas certain elements of the
Bible do. It turns out that our entire natural existence can be satisfactorily judged,
condemned, and sent to death row with Christ when he was crucified because God,
in some mysterious way that I've yet to understand, somehow makes people joint
principals in Jesus' execution similar to how He made us all joint principals in the
forbidden fruit incident back in Genesis.

● Rom 5:18-19 . .Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all
men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made
sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made
righteous.

● Rom 6:3 . . Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized into his death?

● Rom 6:8 . . We died with Christ,

● Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

● Col 3:3 . . For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

NOTE: My eldest brother was a dedicated Catholic priest for +/- 53 years of his life.
It's very possible those years counted for nothing if he departed this life without
first speaking with God about getting himself condemned with Christ. Well; I would
not want to be my brother if perchance he ended up on the wrong side of things
because he is surely undergoing cruel mockery without mercy by some of the
netherworld's unsavory crowd. I can just imagine their giggling and their taunts:

Hey Christian! How's about sharing the gospel with us ay? Tell us about the love of
God and how that's working for ya. Awwwww-Haw-Haw-Haw-Hawwwwwwwww!

I'd rather end up in perdition as a Bernie Madoff than a failed priest because ol'
ponzi schemer Bernie is sure to be given far more respect down below than men of
the cloth.
_

 

[Adherent]

That's not God's responsibilty to make sure we come to our senses, and return home. That's ours. In the prodigal parable, do we see God speaking from heaven, telling the prodigal what he needed to do? No.

No It's not God's responsibility He does it out of love. God doesn't need to speak out of heaven. He can speak to her hearts through our circumstances and our consciousness. The prodigal realized what he had done, like a guilt trip. He's feeding unclean pigs. Not a real good job for a Jew. He had blown all his inheritance and all his so-called friends had deserted him. Yeah I think he might just be ready to hear from God.

So take that scenario for one liking into our modern day world in the same thing could happen. We could leave our nice comfortable Christian life start drinking doing drugs going to prostitutes getting arrested for DUI. Be sitting in a jail cell and thinking man my Christian life wasn't so bad. I think I'll repent ask god to forgive me and get back on the right track. He came to the senses.

Was it God's responsibility? Or did did God just let him Reap what he Sewed?

But Jesus Takes it a step further. He actually said he would leave the 99 to go get that one lost lamb. In that scenario He Would be definitely taking on the responsibility.

A parable is an apparently simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, to teach a great truth or to challenge the hearers to change their own behaviour. Some of Jesus' parables are a couple of sentences long while some are extended narratives.

 

[Clay]

Apostatize means to totally abandon or reject one's religion. It can also be used in a slightly more general way to mean to totally abandon or reject one's principles, cause, party, or other organization. The act of doing so is called apostasy, and someone who does so can be called an apostate.

But what's to stop you from going back to your father's house? Not a thing.

If you don't go back you might have never been saved in the first place. Like when Jesus said depart from me I never knew you.
Some people are Christian in name only. I think they called them pew warmers. They don't have a personal relationship with God and are not filled with the Holy Spirit.

Remember Jesus came to give his life and life more abundantly. Yes here it comes. He came to give us eternal life.

The ultimate expression of God’s love for us is wrapped up in the phrase “eternal life.” It seemslike many Christians are confused about exactly what eternal life is. Some Christians would define eternal life as what happens to a Christian after he dies.

That is not eternal life! Eternal life is something you inherit and a reality that begins the moment you believe in Jesus Christ. Eternal life has less to do with the duration of time than it does the quality of life you are living.

Therefore, eternal life is knowing the true God and His Son, not the life you move into the day you die. Knowing God is a new kind and quality of life. Once you know that kind of life then try to reject it once you get beat up enough by the world you'd crawl back to your father's house.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
Apostasy isn't necessarily a bad thing; for example:

"The Lord's message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia-your faith
in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything
about it, for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell
how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (1Thess 1:8-9)

"And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in
Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."
(Acts 6:7)

"Joseph of Arimathea was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had
visited Jesus at night (John 3:1-10). Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and
aloes, about seventy-five pounds." (John 19:38-42)

The apostle Paul is probably the most famous of all the righteous apostates.

"Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an
Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal,
persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ." (Phil 3:5-7)
_

 

[Clay]

.
Apostasy isn't necessarily a bad thing; for example:

"The Lord's message rang out from you not only in Macedonia and Achaia-your faith
in God has become known everywhere. Therefore we do not need to say anything
about it, for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell
how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (1Thess 1:8-9)

"And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in
Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith."
(Acts 6:7)

"Joseph of Arimathea was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had
visited Jesus at night (John 3:1-10). Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and
aloes, about seventy-five pounds." (John 19:38-42)

The apostle Paul is probably the most famous of all the righteous apostates.

"Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an
Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal,
persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ." (Phil 3:5-7)
_

Wouldn't it be great to meet and to talk to the Apostle Paul in heaven? After we see Jesus face to face of course. You know what blows my mind is that heaven will not have any sun. The presence of Jesus will light everything up. Wow!