Eternal Security

Wouldn't it be great to meet and to talk to the Apostle Paul in heaven? After we see Jesus face to face of course. You know what blows my mind is that heaven will not have any sun. The presence of Jesus will light everything up. Wow!
Paul an apostate??? That's not true. An apostate is someone who knew the truth, and then later turned away from it. Paul never knew the truth until Jesus "struck" him down on the road to Damascus. And after that, he never turned away from it.
 
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You know what blows my mind is that heaven will not have any sun.

Well; I flunked English in my senior year of high school and had to make it up
during summer vacation so I can't claim to be competent with language and
grammar. But the text of the final two chapters of Revelation seem to indicate that
the absence of sunlight is limited to the holy city instead of everywhere.

Also; the holy city comes down from Heaven which indicates to me that the final
two chapters of Revelation are speaking of a new cosmos instead of the highest of
all sacred places.
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Important Safety Tip: Unless you sincerely believe yourself infallible; don't be
telling people they're wrong lest the hapless day arrives when you are forced to eat
your words. Leave yourself a way to retreat with dignity instead of humiliation.
_
There's a word for your attitude, but I'm not going to use it - I'm exercising self control here. Telling someone they're wrong is not claiming infallibility. Okay, I'm ready to eat my words. If I'm wrong, then humiliation will be, well, humbling, which is a good thing, right? Please show me the scripture that shows that Paul was apostate.
 
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Well; I flunked English in my senior year of high school and had to make it up
during summer vacation so I can't claim to be competent with language and
grammar. But the text of the final two chapters of Revelation seem to indicate that
the absence of sunlight is limited to the holy city instead of everywhere.

Also; the holy city comes down from Heaven which indicates to me that the final
two chapters of Revelation are speaking of a new cosmos instead of the highest of
all sacred places.
_
Thanks for the info. But also encourage me to study out the book of revelation a little deeper today. There should be a thread here about it.
 
Paul an apostate??? That's not true. An apostate is someone who knew the truth, and then later turned away from it. Paul never knew the truth until Jesus "struck" him down on the road to Damascus. And after that, he never turned away from it.
Oh I know Paul's there, I was talking about when I get there wouldn't it be great to talk to him. Maybe ask him a question or two.

I know he went to heaven during his ministry, Not the same heaven will be going to probably.

 
Oh I know Paul's there, I was talking about when I get there wouldn't it be great to talk to him. Maybe ask him a question or two.

I know he went to heaven during his ministry, Not the same heaven will be going to probably.

What does that have to do with the topic?
 
What does that have to do with the topic?
Alrighty then... Back on topic. Eternal Security, Some call it once saved always saved "OSAS". Some call it assurance of salvation. Whatever you want to call it I believe there is a great deal at stink here. The question of whether or not salvation is forever is not an isolated one. One’s answer to this question affects every facet of one’s theology.

Best argument I've read on this form In favor of OSAS is from @civic when he says something along the lines of "if Christ died to gives us eternal life and yet somehow we lose our salvation then Christ didn't really give us eternal life."

See why this is such an important topic to understand? Just by thinking you can lose your salvation you can discredit The Cross. Satan would Love that. You know what I'm going to comes to rob to kill and destroy. And he's the father of lies. Don't listen to him.... you are eternally secure.
 
Alrighty then... Back on topic. Eternal Security, Some call it once saved always saved "OSAS". Some call it assurance of salvation. Whatever you want to call it I believe there is a great deal at stink here. The question of whether or not salvation is forever is not an isolated one. One’s answer to this question affects every facet of one’s theology.

Best argument I've read on this form In favor of OSAS is from @civic when he says something along the lines of "if Christ died to gives us eternal life and yet somehow we lose our salvation then Christ didn't really give us eternal life."

See why this is such an important topic to understand? Just by thinking you can lose your salvation you can discredit The Cross. Satan would Love that. You know what I'm going to comes to rob to kill and destroy. And he's the father of lies. Don't listen to him.... you are eternally secure.
Yes or it should be called conditional life, temporal life and not eternal life. :)
 
Alrighty then... Back on topic. Eternal Security, Some call it once saved always saved "OSAS". Some call it assurance of salvation. Whatever you want to call it I believe there is a great deal at stink here. The question of whether or not salvation is forever is not an isolated one. One’s answer to this question affects every facet of one’s theology.

Best argument I've read on this form In favor of OSAS is from @civic when he says something along the lines of "if Christ died to gives us eternal life and yet somehow we lose our salvation then Christ didn't really give us eternal life."

See why this is such an important topic to understand? Just by thinking you can lose your salvation you can discredit The Cross. Satan would Love that. You know what I'm going to comes to rob to kill and destroy. And he's the father of lies. Don't listen to him.... you are eternally secure.
Just because a person can turn away from salvation does not discredit the cross in any way. What, the cross will force people to stay saved? I don't think so.
 
Clay - "Best argument I've read on this form In favor of OSAS is from @civic when he says something along the lines of "if Christ died to gives us eternal life and yet somehow we lose our salvation then Christ didn't really give us eternal life."

That's an old argument, which I dealt with in #33. It's a faulty argument. as all OSAS "arguments" are.
 
Just because a person can turn away from salvation does not discredit the cross in any way. What, the cross will force people to stay saved? I don't think so.
The way it discredits the cross is once you accept Jesus as Lord and savior in all your sins have been forgiven to say you can walk away from that is to say that Christ wasted his time dying for you because his sacrifice wasn't good enough. But Jesus doesn't allow that to happen when one of his sheep go astray he goes and gets him. We've already established the fact that your works based salvation person. So when you're thinking you have to keep on working in order to maintain your salvation.

According to the Bible, salvation cannot be lost:
  • Hebrews 10:14 states that Christ has perfected us for all time, and what He has done cannot be undone.
  • 1 John 5:11-13 says that God has given us eternal life in Jesus.
  • John 6:39 and John 10:28 emphasize that no one can snatch us out of God's hand.
  • Romans 8:38-39 assures that nothing can separate us from the love of God.
 
Clay - "Best argument I've read on this form In favor of OSAS is from @civic when he says something along the lines of "if Christ died to gives us eternal life and yet somehow we lose our salvation then Christ didn't really give us eternal life."

That's an old argument, which I dealt with in #33. It's a faulty argument. as all OSAS "arguments" are.
Yeah I like those old arguments. What you have dealt with holds no weight with me. You claim that any argument that proves you are wrong is a faulty argument. Get over yourself.
 
The sheep of Christ will never perish. The sheep of Christ are held in His hand and in the Father’s hand. No man is able to pluck Christ’s sheep out of His hand or the Father’s hand.

They hear the voice of Christ, they follow Christ, and they shall never perish from Christ, for He knows (loves) them, gives them eternal life, and holds them in His hand. If a believer (one of Christ’s sheep) apostatizes, he perishes and Christ said that His sheep would never perish. Therefore no one can lose their salvation we are eternally secure.

The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
John 10:27–29.
In John 10:27-28, we read - My sheep hear My voice, (not some of them hear His voice and some of them don't hear His voice) and I know them, (not some of them He knows and some of them He doesn't know) and they follow Me. (not some of them follow Him and some of them don't follow Him) And I give them eternal life, (not some of them He gives eternal life and some of them He doesn't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (not some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (not some of them will never be snatched out of His hand and some of them will be snatched out of His hand)

What about those who are not His sheep? But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. (John 10:26)
 
"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
"For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
"It has happened to them according to the true proverb, 'A dog returns to its own vomit', and 'A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.' " 2 Peter 2:20-22
In regard to 2 Peter 2:20, those who are truly born of God have become partakers of the divine nature. They have been transformed from pigs and dogs into sheep. The change is more than just cosmetic, as in 2 Peter 2:20.

*These cleaned up on the outside dogs and pigs were never sheep.

Compare 2 Peter 1:4 - "partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption - Strongs #5356 that is in the world through lust with 2 Peter 2:20 - with they escaped the pollutions - Strongs #3356 (different Greek word) of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet they are again entangled therein, and overcome.

*Notice that 2 Peter 2:20 did not mention them being "partakers of the divine nature." Corruption is deeper than pollutions/defilements on the outside: it is decay on the inside.

Having the knowledge of Jesus Christ does not save a person if there is no heart submission to that knowledge. The latter end is worse than the beginning for these men because rejecting this knowledge will make them more accountable at the judgment. Judas Iscariot is a good example of someone who rejected the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ yet was never saved. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)
 
The way it discredits the cross is once you accept Jesus as Lord and savior in all your sins have been forgiven to say you can walk away from that is to say that Christ wasted his time dying for you because his sacrifice wasn't good enough. But Jesus doesn't allow that to happen when one of his sheep go astray he goes and gets him. We've already established the fact that your works based salvation person. So when you're thinking you have to keep on working in order to maintain your salvation.

According to the Bible, salvation cannot be lost:
  • Hebrews 10:14 states that Christ has perfected us for all time, and what He has done cannot be undone.
  • 1 John 5:11-13 says that God has given us eternal life in Jesus.
  • John 6:39 and John 10:28 emphasize that no one can snatch us out of God's hand.
  • Romans 8:38-39 assures that nothing can separate us from the love of God.
Yeah I like those old arguments. What you have dealt with holds no weight with me. You claim that any argument that proves you are wrong is a faulty argument. Get over yourself.
I believe all OSAS arguments are wrong because there's too many verses that tell us that a person can lose their salvation. So, because I hold that opinion you tell me to "get over myself". That's a two-edged sword. You also believe that arguments against OSAS, and that prove you are wrong are faulty. So should I judge you and say "Get over yourself" like you have me, insinuating that I'm arrogant and proud?
No, I'll let you guys do the judging. I'll just stick to the truth of scripture.

I find that many OSAS persons resort to judging, demeaning and condescending comments, if someone dares to disagree with them. Many get just plain mad.

Tell me, how is it possible that you can't leave the Lord after acknowledging His Lordship over your life? Does God force you to stay saved? If your doctrine is right, then God becomes a dictator, not allowing any of His disciples to leave.

So you no longer have a free will, because everyone with a free will can freely choose to follow Him or leave Him. The true God is not a tyrant - if you wish to leave at any time, you may. Jesus said that Himself in John 6:67: "So Jesus said to the twelve, 'You do not want to go away also, do you'?" Jesus did not add, "Sorry, you can't leave, I won't let you. It doesn't matter if you want to leave or not - live however you want, eat, drink and be merry, sin all you want - I'm still not letting you go."

That's how ridiculous OSAS is. Every promise of God has a condition - that you continue in faith, as Paul said, and keep yourselves in the love of God, as Jude said, and abide in Him, as Jesus said. The only exception to that in the Bible is when God sovereignly chose who would be in the line of the Messiah, in Romans 9. No one can snatch us out of God's hand if we continue in faith, keep ourselves in the love of God, and abide in Him. but if you don't, you have the freedom to walk away.

You don't own eternal life. That belongs to Jesus. Get ready, here comes the condition, "whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16 Once you or anyone stops believing in Him, and many have, the eternal life stays with Jesus. You can't take it with you, if you no longer believe.

"Take care, brethren (that means a disciple), that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God." Heb. 3:12

"God has given us eternal life, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1 John 5:11-12 When anyone walks away from Jesus, they also walk away from eternal life.

"I want the younger widows to get married bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach; FOR SOME HAVE ALREADY TURNED ASIDE TO FOLLOW SATAN." 1 Timothy 5:14-15 What did they turn aside from? Jesus.

"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned." John 15:6 What does fire represent in the Bible?

"But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." 1 Timothy 4:1. You don't fall away from the faith, if you never had the faith.

No, I am not into works based salvation. I was saved by grace through faith in Jesus as everyone is, without doing any works whatsoever. However, once we are born again, we are commanded to do what He says:

"Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say?" Luke 6:46

Jesus commanded us to pray, give to the poor, and fast, and to love one another.
He commanded us to visit the sick and those in prison.
He commanded us to invite the stranger in, feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked.
He commanded us to preach the gospel.

Do you do any of these things because He commanded you to?

If you do, then you're just as much a work-based salvation person as I am.
If you don't then you are disobedient to Him
 
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You cant stop being born again, and eternal life, is not temporary.

Philippians 1:6, says that God is faithful to complete the believer's salvation.

Jesus says.. "all that believe in me, i give unto you, eternal life, and you shall never go to hell, (Perish).

John says, "you can KNOW that you have eternal life"

So, where is this found?

A.) Jesus is Eternal Life

So, if you have become "The Temple of the Holy Spirit", then you have Jesus in you, and you are 'in Christ" and so, eternal life is secured.


Now those who are not saved, or those who are saved, but dont understand anything at all regarding being "in Christ", .. will be found trying to keep themselves saved.
And when you are that one, you faith is broken, or your are not born again Yet.
 
Correct, precious friend, but "God's Eternal Salvation" Is Found In
God's Word Of Truth!:
"And being made perfect, He Became The Author of Eternal Salvation
unto all them that obey Him" (Hebrews 5:9 AV)​
Now, in order for men to 'break' "This Eternal (Not 'temporary') Salvation"
That God Gives "all them that obey" The Gospel Of The Grace Of God
"Through faith (Not of works/self)" (Ephesians 2:8-9 AV), men have to go
to Extreme lengths (Minimum = 20x) in order to undo "All That God Has Done"
Apart from all works/self-actions, for the brand-spanking new "babe In Christ"
By "The Merits of His Precious BLOOD On The Cross!" - ie:

UN-accept these, That God Has Eternally:

(1) Accepted In The Beloved, To The Praise Of​
The Glory Of His Grace! (Ephesians 1:6 AV)​

UN-adopt these, That God Has Eternally:


UN-baptize these, That God Has Eternally:

(3) Baptized:​
BY” One Holy Spirit!​
Into His Death, And Buried With Him! (Romans 6:3 Colossians 2:12 AV)​
Into His One Body!! (1 Corinthians 12:13 AV)​
Into Jesus Christ!!! (Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27 AV)​

UN-bless these, That God Has Eternally:
(4) Blessed With All Spiritual Blessings In Heavenly Places In Christ!​

UN-circumcise these, That God Has Eternally:

(5) Circumcised With The Circumcision Of Christ! (Colossians 2:11 AV)​

UN-deliver these, That God Has Eternally:

(6) Delivered:​
From the power of darkness! (Colossians 1:13 AV)​
From so great a death!! (2 Corinthians 1:10 AV)​
From the wrath to come!!! (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 AV)​

UN-forgive these, That God Has Eternally:

(7) FORGIVEN of All sins and trespasses:​
According To The Riches Of His Grace!​

UN-give "What God, for these, Has Eternally":

(8) Given:​
The Earnest of The Spirit in our hearts! (2 Corinthians 1:22, 5:5 AV)​
Everlasting Consolation and Good Hope Through Grace!​
Grace, Which was Given us In Christ Jesus Before the world began!​
Grace according to The Measure Of The Gift Of Christ! (Ephesians 4:7 AV)​
Peace Through our Lord Jesus Christ! (Romans 5:1; Philippians 4:7 AV)​
The Promise By Faith Of Jesus Christ! (Galatians 3:22 AV)​
The spirit of power, love, And a sound mind! (2 Timothy 1:7 AV)​

UN-glorify these, That God Has Eternally:

(9) Glorified!​

"When Christ, Who Is our Life, Shall Appear, Then Shall​
ye Also appear With Him In Glory!" (Colossians 3:4 AV)​
Thanks Be To The Father For "The Merits Of The Precious BLOOD"
Of His Only Begotten SON, The Lord Jesus Christ! Amen?​

UN-justify [ Canceling Christ's BLOOD? For ] these, That God Has Eternally:

(10) Justified:​
Freely By His Grace (Romans 3:24; Titus 3:7 AV)​
Christ, Who Was Delivered For our offences,
Was Raised For our justification! (Romans 4:25 AV)​
By faith (Romans 5:1 AV)​
By His BLOOD! (Romans 5:9 AV)​
In The Name Of The Lord Jesus, And By​
The Spirit Of our God! (1 Corinthians 6:11 AV)​

UN-make these, That God Has Eternally:

(11) Made:​
Accepted In The Beloved (Ephesians 1:6 AV)​
alive, Together With, And, In Christ! (Ephesians 2:1, 5; 1 Corinthians 15:22 AV)​
children Of God (Romans 8:14-16; Galatians 3:26; Ephesians 1:5 AV)​
Complete In Him (Colossians 2:10 AV)​
to drink into One Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13 AV)​
Free From the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2 AV)​
Free In The Liberty Of Christ! (Galatians 5:1 AV)​
heirs With God / Joint heirs With Christ! (Titus 3:7; Romans 8:17 AV)​
nigh by The BLOOD Of Christ! (Ephesians 2:13 AV)​
righteous By The Obedience Of One { Christ! } (Romans 5:19 AV)​
The Righteousness Of God In Him! (2 Corinthians 5:21 AV)​
to sit together In Heavenly Places In Christ Jesus! (Ephesians 2:6 AV)​
[ worthy ] meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the​
saints in Light! (Colossians 1:12 AV)​

UN-predestinate these, That God Has Eternally:

12) Predestinated:​
"For whom He did Foreknow, He also did Predestinate to be Conformed To​
The Image Of His SON, that He might be The Firstborn among many brethren."​
"Having Predestinated us unto The Adoption of children By Jesus Christ​
To Himself, According To The Good Pleasure of His Will" (Ephesians 1:5 AV)​
"In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being​
Predestinated According To The Purpose of Him Who Worketh​
all things after The Counsel of His Own Will" (Ephesians 1:11 AV)​

UN-purchase these, That God Has Eternally:

(13) Purchased:​
God Purchased His Church With His Own BLOOD! (Acts 20:28 AV)​
“...Redemption Of The Purchased Possession, Unto​
The Praise Of HIS Glory!” (Ephesians 1:14 AV)​

UN-raise (Re-condemn?) these, That God Has Eternally:

(14) Raised:​
“Buried With Him In Baptism, Wherein Also ye Are Risen With​
Him Through The Faith Of The Operation Of God, Who Hath​
Raised Him From the dead.” (Colossians 2:12 AV)​
Up Together With Christ! (Ephesians 2:6 AV)​

UN-redeem these, That God Has Eternally:

(15) Redeemed:​
“...The Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who Gave​
Himself For us, That He might Redeem us From All iniquity…”​
(Titus 2:14 AV)​
From the curse of the law! (Galatians 3:13 AV)​
Redemption In Christ Jesus! (Romans 3:24 AV)​
Redemption Through His BLOOD (Acts 20:28 AV),​
According To The Riches Of HIS Grace!​
God Made Christ Redemption Unto us who are In Him!​
Sealed By The Holy Spirit Unto The Day Of Redemption!​
“...Redemption Of The Purchased Possession, Unto​
The Praise Of HIS Glory!” (Ephesians 1:14 AV)​
The Redemption of our body! (Romans 8:23 AV)​

UN-regenerate / UN-renew these, That God Has Eternally:

(16) Regenerated/Renewed:​
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but​
According To His Mercy He Saved us, By The Washing Of​
Regeneration, And Renewing Of The Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5 AV)​

UN-save these, That God Has Eternally:

(17) Saved:​
“For The Grace Of God That Bringeth Salvation​
Hath Appeared To all men” (Titus 2:11 AV)​
But, For Only those who are humble:​
The Gospel Of CHRIST Is The Power Of God Unto Salvation​
to Every one that believeth! (Romans 1:16 AV)​

“For The preaching Of The Cross is to them that​
perish foolishness; but unto us which Are Saved It​
Is The Power Of God!” (1 Corinthians 1:18 AV)​
“By Grace are ye Saved Through faith”​

“...According To His Own Purpose And Grace, Which Was Given
us In Christ Jesus Before the world began...” (2 Timothy 1:9 AV)​
[ Where, pray tell, do men get 'power' to UNdo​
"What God Has Done In Eternity Past"?????? ]​
“...According To His Mercy He Saved us...” (Titus 3:5 AV)​

UN-seal these, That God Has Eternally:

(18) Sealed:​
By The Holy Spirit Unto The Day Of Redemption!​

God’s Sure Foundation Has This Seal:​
“...The LORD Knoweth them That Are His!...” (2 Timothy 2:19 AV)​
+​
Christ Has Always Known them That Are His!! (Ephesians 1:4-6 AV)​

Note:
Opposite of which is: "Christ Never Knew them that were Never His!" - Matthew​
7:21-23 AV, thus how can God Have "Always Known those whom He Never Knew"?
-------------
UN-translate (remove?) these, That God Has Eternally:

(19) Translated:​
“[ Spiritually Transferred ] Into The Kingdom Of His Dear SON!”​

UN-wash these, That God Has Eternally:
(20) Washed:
“And such [Unrighteous v. 9] were some of you: but ye are​
Washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified In The​
Name Of The Lord Jesus, and By The Spirit Of our God.”​
“...Christ also Loved the church, and Gave Himself For it;​
That He might Sanctify and Cleanse it with The Washing Of​
Water By The Word…” (Ephesians 5:25-26 AV)​
Conclusions:

1. Neither phrase "eternal security" nor "temporary salvation" are found in The Bible!​

2. Either we have "God's Eternal Salvation," Or, we don't!!​
=====

methinks What God Says, Appropriately applies to "UN-doing men"
(who erroneously think "they have More Power Than God"?):​

“For My Thoughts [ are ] not your thoughts, neither [ are ] your ways My Ways,​
Saith The LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My Ways
Higher Than your ways, and My Thoughts Than your thoughts.” (Isaiah 55:8-9)​

Amen.
Love this man!-and appreciate your hard work in presenting the Scriptures.
Johann.
 
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