Eternal Security

[L.A.M.B.]

The truth sets us free but many have either man made indoctrination or self willed blinders on.

There will be a day of reckoning when all will give an account of the life lived; when the books are opened in heaven.
God knows the truth of our walk, there is nothing of the heart hidden from him, it will be revealed.

If the Spirit revealed that one was not walking in the truth and had rejected that truth, it is recorded.

Galatians 6:7-9

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, IF WE FAINT NOT.

 

[dwight92070]

Spiritual Gifts and the call into the Ministry, as a '"""""""Prophet, Apostle, Teacher, Pastor, Evangelist.:""""""""

These "gifts and callings" are "without repentance" exactly as the "GIFT of Salvation", is the same.

Who are the called? Romans 9:23-24 "vessels of mercy, ... even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."

God has not revoked His calling of me or anyone who continues in the faith - we are the true Israel of God, those who enter into His gracious salvation through faith. We stand only by our faith (Rom.11:20-22). We are not to be conceited, but fear: for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare us either. " ... but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

 

[Behold]

... but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

Let me open this verse for you.

Notice...."if you continue in HIS Kindness"...

So, who is the 1.) "His"?,

and what is 2.) His "Kindness"?

Its this..

1.) God, and the 2.) Gift of Salvation.

And that is proof of Eternal Security, as God is the author of Eternal Salvation, and the only way to continue IN God's GIFT....., is to be born again.

Philippians 1:6

 

[dwight92070]

Let me open this verse for you.

Notice...."if you continue in HIS Kindness"...

So, who is the 1.) "His"?,

and what is 2.) His "Kindness"?

Its this..

1.) God, and the 2.) Gift of Salvation.

And that is proof of Eternal Security, as God is the author of Eternal Salvation, and the only way to continue IN God's GIFT....., is to be born again.

Philippians 1:6

Paul was writing to born again Jews and Gentiles. "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.' Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith." Verses 19-20
So they didn't need the new birth AGAIN to continue in His kindness. They needed to remain humble to continue in His kindness. He told them, "Do not be conceited, but fear." If they obeyed this, they would be continuing in His kindness. If they did not remain humble, Paul warned them that, just like the nonbelieving Jews, they also would be cut off. So much for eternal security.
So the unBiblical, man-made idea of eternal security is a false security. It is not supported here or anywhere in the Bible.
Paul is warning true believers here that if they don't obey his instructions, they WILL be cut off.
If you don't recognize that here, then most likely you won't acknowledge any of the other numerous warnings in the Bible given to Christians. The "eternal security" doctrine, just like all false doctrines, puts blinders over the eyes of those who are ensnared by it.
All of God's promises to us whom He has called are conditional. Phil 1:6 is no exception. We are saved by God's grace through our faith. It is a free gift, but without our faith we cannot receive it.
There is only one exception to that (that all His promises are conditional) in the New Testament, that I know of. That is in Romans 9, where God sovereignly chooses who will be in the genealogical line of the Messiah, and who will not be. He is not choosing who will be saved and who will be lost in that chapter.

 

[Clay]

My experience has been that those who have problems with the doctrine of eternal security have a distorted understanding of what took place at the Cross. That may sound as if I am being critical. But in reality I am more puzzled than anything else. When I think of Calvary, and the price that was paid to provide me with salvation, the thought of my having the power to undo all of that seems preposterous.

Especially considering that Jesus said that he would never leave us or forsake us, if we belong to him if he is our Good Shepherd.

He also said that he is the good shepherd and that he would leave the 99 to go find that one Lost Lamb.

Then you have the fact that he gave us eternal life. If we could somehow lose our eternal life that he died to give us, then it wasn't really eternal was it.

 

[Behold]

Paul was writing to born again Jews and Gentiles.

You need to understand something.

Its this...being Born again, is why a person is accepted by God, and that is a spiritual birth that is God caused.

And its complete and eternal.

See, a BIRTH, is not something you can end.
You can only end A life.
Understand?

As once you are born, you are on Earth......you can't undo it.
Its DONE.

And once you are BORN AGAIN.......you are.......and that is it.
Its DONE.

There is no part of being born on earth, or by God, that you control., and until you understand that, you dont understand God's Salvation, at all. @dwight92070

See, you can't stop being BORN, and you can't end being born again..

 

[Clay]

You need to understand something.

Its this...being Born again, is why a person is accepted by God, and that is a spiritual birth that is God caused.

And its complete and eternal.

See, a BIRTH, is not something you can end.
You can only end A life.
Understand?

As once you are born, you are on Earth......you can't undo it.
Its DONE.

And once you are BORN AGAIN.......you are.......and that is it.
Its DONE.

There is no part of being born on earth, or by God, that you control., and until you understand that, you dont understand God's Salvation, at all.

See, you can't stop being BORN, and you can't end being born again..

Correct, if you're born again you are a new creation. Your old man has died. We are dead to sin and alive to God. You can't go back to being the old man.

 

[Behold]

Correct, if you're born again you are a new creation. Your old man has died. We are dead to sin and alive to God. You can't go back to being the old man.

The old man is "crucified with Christ'.

How do you get that back?

This is why Paul says to "reckon Him dead"...>"esteem Him as in the Grave"..

The New Creation is the CHRISTian., and the old man of sin, has no part, is GONE.

He died with Christ and when Christ rose from the Dead, a Believer's "old man" didnt.


God knows however that enough forum heretics and pulpit heretics would have you believe the Old Man is still YOU.

And he can't be if he's "crucified WITH Christ".

 

[dwight92070]

"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
"For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
"It has happened to them according to the true proverb, 'A dog returns to its own vomit', and 'A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.' " 2 Peter 2:20-22

 

[Clay]

The old man is "crucified with Christ'.

How do you get that back?

This is why Paul says to "reckon Him dead"...>"esteem Him as in the Grave"..

The New Creation is the CHRISTian., and the old man of sin, has no part, is GONE.

He died with Christ and when Christ rose from the Dead, a Believer's "old man" didnt.


God knows however that enough forum heretics and pulpit heretics would have you believe the Old Man is still YOU.

And he can't be if he's "crucified WITH Christ".

That's what I posted. We're a new creation but we still live in a fallen world that Satan is the ruler of till Christ comes back. We still fall short of the glory of God. And none of us are without sin. We're still able to be tempted.

Those statements come I'll be backed up with scripture, well-known scripture.

 

[dwight92070]

It's telling that you focus on certain analogies of salvation like being born again and the old man is crucified - and you speculate that we can't be "unborn" and we can't bring the old man back - but then you ignore the scripture that actually speaks about those things actually happening. I mean I agree that the new birth and the old man are Bible truths, but they are simply analogies of what happens spiritually. So actually I believe a person can be "unborn" spiritually and he can return to the old man spiritually. When you say that we can't be unborn, you're thinking in physical terms, and I agree with that. When you say we can't resurrect the old man, again you're thinking in physical terms, and I would agree there too. But spiritually both of those can happen, and the scriptures have numerous places where it mentions exactly that.

I gave you a couple of those places above but it appears that you don't want to discuss those.

Romans 11:20-22 Paul warns that believers "will be cut off" and that "He will not spare (them)" if they are "conceited" and don't live in the "fear" of God, and "if they don't continue in His kindness", they in fact "will be cut off".

2 Peter 2:20-22 in post #29 gives proof that the actual event of a believer falling away from eternal salvation can and does happen. I would welcome anyone's comments on these verses.

Here are several more analogies of salvation, that you did not mention:

Jesus said that He was "the door of the sheep", and "if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved." So if someone goes through that door, is it possible for him to go back through that door the other way? I think so.

If a lost sheep is found (saved), is it possible for that sheep to get lost again? Yes, it is.

If a dead person is revived (saved) and he lives, is it possible that he could die again? Of course.

If He transferred us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light (salvation), is He not able, if He so chooses, to do the opposite? Yes, it's possible to be "cut off".

If a blind person is healed (was blind but now I see), is it possible that he could be made blind again? Yes.

If by His stripes we are healed (a picture of being saved - 2 Peter 2:24), is it possible that we could get sick again? I think so.

If children of darkness can become children of light (Ephesians 5:8), is it possible that we could go back to being a child of darkness? Yup.

If a slave is set free (salvation), could he become a slave again? Yes, he can.

If we had an aroma of death on us, and changed into the sweet fragrance of Christ (2 Cor. 2:15-16), is it possible that we could return to the aroma of death? Yes, it is.

So being born again seems to be your favorite analogy of salvation because we "can't be unborn", can we? And that fits your mistaken understanding that a true believer could never be lost. Physically no, but spiritually we can be "unborn". And the crucified old man can't come back, you say. Physically, you're right, but spiritually he can. The Bible warns us of that over and over.

 

[civic]

It's telling that you focus on certain analogies of salvation like being born again and the old man is crucified - and you speculate that we can't be "unborn" and we can't bring the old man back - but then you ignore the scripture that actually speaks about those things actually happening. I mean I agree that the new birth and the old man are Bible truths, but they are simply analogies of what happens spiritually. So actually I believe a person can be "unborn" spiritually and he can return to the old man spiritually. When you say that we can't be unborn, you're thinking in physical terms, and I agree with that. When you say we can't resurrect the old man, again you're thinking in physical terms, and I would agree there too. But spiritually both of those can happen, and the scriptures have numerous places where it mentions exactly that.

I gave you a couple of those places above but it appears that you don't want to discuss those.

Romans 11:20-22 Paul warns that believers "will be cut off" and that "He will not spare (them)" if they are "conceited" and don't live in the "fear" of God, and "if they don't continue in His kindness", they in fact "will be cut off".

2 Peter 2:20-22 in post #29 gives proof that the actual event of a believer falling away from eternal salvation can and does happen. I would welcome anyone's comments on these verses.

Here are several more analogies of salvation, that you did not mention:

Jesus said that He was "the door of the sheep", and "if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved." So if someone goes through that door, is it possible for him to go back through that door the other way? I think so.

If a lost sheep is found (saved), is it possible for that sheep to get lost again? Yes, it is.

If a dead person is revived (saved) and he lives, is it possible that he could die again? Of course.

If He transferred us from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light (salvation), is He not able, if He so chooses, to do the opposite? Yes, it's possible to be "cut off".

If a blind person is healed (was blind but now I see), is it possible that he could be made blind again? Yes.

If by His stripes we are healed (a picture of being saved - 2 Peter 2:24), is it possible that we could get sick again? I think so.

If children of darkness can become children of light (Ephesians 5:8), is it possible that we could go back to being a child of darkness? Yup.

If a slave is set free (salvation), could he become a slave again? Yes, he can.

If we had an aroma of death on us, and changed into the sweet fragrance of Christ (2 Cor. 2:15-16), is it possible that we could return to the aroma of death? Yes, it is.

So being born again seems to be your favorite analogy of salvation because we "can't be unborn", can we? And that fits your mistaken understanding that a true believer could never be lost. Physically no, but spiritually we can be "unborn". And the crucified old man can't come back, you say. Physically, you're right, but spiritually he can. The Bible warns us of that over and over.

how do you deal with eternal life and never perish ?

 

[dwight92070]

Another favorite talking point is: If you can lose eternal salvation, then it wasn't eternal, was it? But what does the Bible say about that?

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1 John 5:11-12

We all tend to think of eternal life as time without end, and there is truth there - but the Bible often speaks of it differently. Eternal life is something that dwells in Jesus. So anyone who dwells in Jesus or we could say abides in Jesus (John 15:4-9), has that eternal life. Anyone who does not continue to abide in Jesus, does not have that eternal life. When a person leaves Jesus, they don't take eternal life with them. That eternal life stays in Jesus, i.e. also in the body of Christ, the church.

how do you deal with eternal life and never perish ?

If I understand your question, then my next post deals with that.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Another favorite talking point is: If you can lose eternal salvation, then it wasn't eternal, was it? But what does the Bible say about that?

"And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." 1 John 5:11-12

We all tend to think of eternal life as time without end, and there is truth there - but the Bible often speaks of it differently. Eternal life is something that dwells in Jesus. So anyone who dwells in Jesus or we could say abides in Jesus (John 15:4-9), has that eternal life. Anyone who does not continue to abide in Jesus, does not have that eternal life. When a person leaves Jesus, they don't take eternal life with them. That eternal life stays in Jesus, i.e. also in the body of Christ, the church.
If I understand your question, then my next post deals with that.

I agree.
1 John 5:10-12

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this LIFE IS IN HIS SON.

12 He that HATH the Son hath life; and he that HATH NOT the Son of God hath not life.

 

[360watt]

I agree.
1 John 5:10-12

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this LIFE IS IN HIS SON.

12 He that HATH the Son hath life; and he that HATH NOT the Son of God hath not life.

Having the Son is not us clinging to Him..but His indwelling presence in our soul.

The only leaving that could happen with something actually inside us .. is from God and He says He won't leave us.

Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a physical possession.

 

[Behold]

Having the Son is not us clinging to Him..but His indwelling presence in our soul.

The only leaving that could happen with something actually inside us .. is from God and He says He won't leave us.

Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a physical possession.

When we are born again, we become part of God's Holy Spirit.

1.) "God is A Spirit"

2.) "Jesus is THAT Spirit""

The reason we get a new Body is because our born again SPIRIT needs the right body, as the one we are wearing, is "dead because of sin"", and they are going to bury it or cremate it.

You can alway tell when a Christian has no idea what it means to HAVE BECOME>... "seated in Heavenly places" as a "new Creation"... having become this one..

"As CHRIST IS.......so are the BORN AGAIN.......IN>.. THIS World"..


So, the NOOB believer, or the fake believer, says......>"but i need to confess sin, to stay saved or be born agian again again again".

Or they are trying to "abide in Christ" to stay saved....or not...


These types of Hebrews 6:1 diaper babies, or fake babies, ruin forums, and oddly enough they start denominations, and write best selling commentaries, because they are preaching teaching baby food, to babies., or they are selling "doctrines of devils" to them.
Sometimes its both.

Here is what the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, produces if you are OF HIM..
You are this one, Reader.. = you are become.. "THE Righteousness of God, in Christ".

So, if you are "made righteous", and are "one with God".. then why would you have a second of concern regarding losing your salvation?

"well, Behold, it because".


A.) Its because you dont understand, yet, what it means to be a "new Creation"....and you are only seeing yourself as "how you think about things" vs, How God has recreated you to exist, already, and forever.

 

[dwight92070]

Having the Son is not us clinging to Him..but His indwelling presence in our soul.

The only leaving that could happen with something actually inside us .. is from God and He says He won't leave us.

Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a physical possession.

360watt said: "Having the Son is not us clinging to Him..but His indwelling presence in our soul."

Those are nice sounding man-made words, but that's not what the Bible says.

Psalm 63:8 "My soul clings to You; Your right hand upholds me."

Romans 12:9 " ... cling to what is good."

Deut. 10:20 "You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him ..."

Jude 1:21 "keep yourselves in the love of God"

Jeremiah 13:8-ll "Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ... For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me ..."

John 15:4 "Abide in Me , and I in you ... he who abides in Me and I in Him, he bears much fruit ... If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, ... and they are cast into the fire and they are burned."

John 13:23 "There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved."


360watt said: The only leaving that could happen with something actually inside us .. is from God and He says He won't leave us.

So apparently you're ignoring Peter's words where he is describing true believers who left Jesus. God did not leave them.

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
"For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
"It has happened to them according to the true proverb, 'A dog returns to its own vomit', and 'A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.' "


360watt said: "Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a physical possession."

The Holy Spirit is spirit, so how can He be a physical possession?

It's obvious that the people Peter is mentioning in 2 Peter 2:20 have abandoned the Holy Spirit. God does not force us to keep the Holy Spirit in our lives. We are free to leave at any time, as these people did.

 

[dwight92070]

When we are born again, we become part of God's Holy Spirit.

1.) "God is A Spirit"

2.) "Jesus is THAT Spirit""

The reason we get a new Body is because our born again SPIRIT needs the right body, as the one we are wearing, is "dead because of sin"", and they are going to bury it or cremate it.

You can alway tell when a Christian has no idea what it means to HAVE BECOME>... "seated in Heavenly places" as a "new Creation"... having become this one..

"As CHRIST IS.......so are the BORN AGAIN.......IN>.. THIS World"..


So, the NOOB believer, or the fake believer, says......>"but i need to confess sin, to stay saved or be born agian again again again".

Or they are trying to "abide in Christ" to stay saved....or not...


These types of Hebrews 6:1 diaper babies, or fake babies, ruin forums, and oddly enough they start denominations, and write best selling commentaries, because they are preaching teaching baby food, to babies., or they are selling "doctrines of devils" to them.
Sometimes its both.

Here is what the finished work of Jesus on the Cross, produces if you are OF HIM..
You are this one, Reader.. = you are become.. "THE Righteousness of God, in Christ".

So, if you are "made righteous", and are "one with God".. then why would you have a second of concern regarding losing your salvation?

"well, Behold, it because".


A.) Its because you dont understand, yet, what it means to be a "new Creation"....and you are only seeing yourself as "how you think about things" vs, How God has recreated you to exist, already, and forever.

 

[360watt]

360watt said: "Having the Son is not us clinging to Him..but His indwelling presence in our soul."

Those are nice sounding man-made words, but that's not what the Bible says.

Psalm 63:8 "My soul clings to You; Your right hand upholds me."

Romans 12:9 " ... cling to what is good."

Deut. 10:20 "You shall fear the Lord your God; you shall serve Him and cling to Him ..."

Jude 1:21 "keep yourselves in the love of God"

Jeremiah 13:8-ll "Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, ... For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me ..."

John 15:4 "Abide in Me , and I in you ... he who abides in Me and I in Him, he bears much fruit ... If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, ... and they are cast into the fire and they are burned."

John 13:23 "There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved."


360watt said: The only leaving that could happen with something actually inside us .. is from God and He says He won't leave us.

So apparently you're ignoring Peter's words where he is describing true believers who left Jesus. God did not leave them.

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
"For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
"It has happened to them according to the true proverb, 'A dog returns to its own vomit', and 'A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.' "


360watt said: "Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a physical possession."

The Holy Spirit is spirit, so how can He be a physical possession?

It's obvious that the people Peter is mentioning in 2 Peter 2:20 have abandoned the Holy Spirit. God does not force us to keep the Holy Spirit in our lives. We are free to leave at any time, as these people did.

The 2 Peter passage is about discipline for a believer who gets caught in old ways. They are held to a higher standard by God than a lost person. So when they do go to old ways..the discipline is more potent than if they were lost and doing those ways.

Regarding the indwelling presence.. that happens at salvation. So other verses about clinging to God are the response to having this indwelling. The 'thank you' to God for being converted by Him.

Initial salvation vs daily service. Eternal salvation vs daily faith.

 

[dwight92070]

The only reason you or I or any believer becomes a new creation is because we have met the condition: we have repented and put our faith in Jesus and He graciously allows us from that point on to be "in Christ".
However many have chosen to not abide in Him, but to leave Him, such as those in 2 Peter 2:20-22.
Demas deserted Paul and Jesus in 2 Timothy 4:10 because he decided he loved this present world.
Some young widows decided to turn away from Jesus, instead of clinging to Him, in order to follow Satan. 1 Tim. 5:14-15
James, the brother of Jesus, acknowledges that some true believers may decide to "stray from the truth" in James 5:19.
Paul said that "the Holy Spirit says in later times that some will fall away from the faith", which means they will leave Jesus. 1 Tim. 4:1
Hebrews 6:4-6 speaks of genuine believers (we know that because they "tasted of the heavenly gift" just as literally as Jesus "tasted death for everyone" Heb.2:9) who have fallen away.
If you don't regularly confess your sin, as we are commanded to do (1 John 1:9), or you don't regularly abide in Christ, as He also commanded (John 15:4), according to His word, you will be thrown away as a branch and burned. The apostle John said that if you say that you have come to know Him, yet you do not keep His commandments, you are a liar, and the truth is not in you. 1 John 2:4

I have referred to 66 verses/passages to confirm what I said in 12 posts on this thread.
On the other hand, Behold has referred to only 6 verses to confirm what he said in 11 posts.
It's evident here which one of us is relying on the Word of God to support our interpretation, and which one is not.

The suggestion that I'm a new believer, a fake believer, or a babe who doesn't understand what it means to be a new creation or I don't understand salvation, and I need him to "open (the true understanding of) the verses" is condescending and patently false. I have not started a denomination (I go to a nondenominational home church), written a commentary, nor am I selling "doctrines of devils". If I have ruined this forum (which I doubt) for you or anyone else, that's your problem or their problem, not mine. I am "guilty" of "clinging" to Jesus and His word and not my own thoughts and speculations.

I have been a disciple of Jesus since I was 21, 54 years ago, and I have never stopped reading and studying the Word, and fellowshipping with the body of Christ. Does that mean that everything I believe is the right understanding of scripture? No, but that does mean that I have seen both sides of many doctrines, and had sufficient time, and God's grace and His Spirit to guide me in the right direction, and I have learned a lot, and hope to continue.

"To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn (light)." Isaiah 8:20