Does God plan what He does not want? What is God's Plan/Will?

atpollard said:
What is the end result of the book of Job.
  • Does it encourage you or discourage you? (your GOOD or your HARM)?
  • Did God receive GLORY or SHAME from the unfolding of events? (who was correct God or Satan?)
So was the book for our Good?
So was the book for God's Glory?

[That is what I mean.]
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False Dichotomy. It is both and more. Not either or.
 
Rockson said:
If they believed all things were ordained whether or no Satan would never have stated taking away Job's blessings would turn him against God. The devil would have just known it would make no difference. If God ordained Job not to reject God there would be no other option. Calvinism therefore fails.
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Just for the record, I did not place this in the Calvinism vs Arminianism section because ... this will come as a shock to some .... not EVERYTHING is about SOTIERIOLOGY. This is about the Sovereignty of God (which even free will advocates accept) and Open Theism and questions about ...
  • What God CAUSES
  • What God ALLOWS
  • What God has NO CONTROL OVER
[And how these three things actually FIT TOGETHER!]
 
atpollard said:
Just for the record, I did not place this in the Calvinism vs Arminianism section because ... this will come as a shock to some .... not EVERYTHING is about SOTIERIOLOGY. This is about the Sovereignty of God (which even free will advocates accept) and Open Theism and questions about ...
  • What God CAUSES
  • What God ALLOWS
  • What God has NO CONTROL OVER
[And how these three things actually FIT TOGETHER!]
Click to expand...

To me, you're playing all sides here. You're not being consistent at all.

You use the phrase "God allows".......

That in and of itself is causal. You can't deny this.
 
Rockson said:
So you're seeking to claim that Satan and all of his cohorts wouldn't have known things like what you Calvinist claim to be true in the Westminster Confession,

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass,

I wouldn't think so Bud if it were true.
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I am a Particular Baptist, so I reject the Westminster Confession and embrace the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith [Don't be sprinkling them babies!" ;) ]

[Satan is probably a full-Peleagian - based on his advice in Genesis to Eve] :ROFLMAO:
 
atpollard said:
What is the end result of the book of Job.
Click to expand...
In the end good for Job but he did learn things along the way to always seek to keep his confidence that God would respond to him in a blessed way as he choose to keep walking in humility towards God. You recall he was told to pray for his three friends too and then he was restored. .
atpollard said:
  • Does it encourage you or discourage you?
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There would be no encouragement in it at all if Job was left to feel God might ordain evil for you and there's nothing you can do about it or ways you can respond rightly. What encouragement could YOU take from that? I'm sure nothing.

atpollard said:
  • (who was correct God or Satan?)
Click to expand...
Actually there was no declaration from God that Job would stay faithful in and through the trial.
atpollard said:
So was the book for our Good?
Click to expand...
It showed the patience of Job as James says BUT that does not mean that God decided Job was going to go through this by ordaining him to. With all due respect you have to impose that into the text to say that.

Going away for a few days. :)
 
praise_yeshua said:
That ole "permissive will" thing...

What does "permissive" mean in your theology? The word "permissive" itself destroys your position. In fact, it is very odd for a Calvinist to actual use an Arminian argument relative to secondary cause to defend Calvinism.
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Just for the record, THIS is why I generally completely ignore anything you post. You ask questions that were answered in the post you skimmed (waiting to talk) without actually bothering to READ.

[PS. Just because it was God's WILL/PLAN does not mean God CAUSED it ... that "secondary causes" and "permissive will" thing ... like when God allowed Satan to kill Job's family or God allowed Joseph's brothers to sell him to slavers or God "gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves," - Romans 1:24. It just means that it was part of God's bigger plan ... "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" - Genesis 50:20].

(Can you see the answer to "What does permissive mean?" now?)
(This is an "Open Theology" discussion having nothing to do with SOTIERIOLOGY, so Calvinism and Arminianism are irrelevant.)
 
atpollard said:
Just for the record, THIS is why I generally completely ignore anything you post. You ask questions that were answered in the post you skimmed (waiting to talk) without actually bothering to READ.

[PS. Just because it was God's WILL/PLAN does not mean God CAUSED it ... that "secondary causes" and "permissive will" thing ... like when God allowed Satan to kill Job's family or God allowed Joseph's brothers to sell him to slavers or God "gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves," - Romans 1:24. It just means that it was part of God's bigger plan ... "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" - Genesis 50:20].

(Can you see the answer to "What does permissive mean?" now?)
(This is an "Open Theology" discussion having nothing to do with SOTIERIOLOGY, so Calvinism and Arminianism are irrelevant.)
Click to expand...

Reply or not. Up to you. I'll do the same.

I asked the question because of your own theology. I'm glad you're not actually a Calvinist.
 

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