Does God plan what He does not want? What is God's Plan/Will?

[atpollard]

The following questions were raised on another topic and deserve their own discussion.

Does God plan what He doesn’t want ?
Is Gods plan, Gods will ?

I offer as a starting point, a challenge to think about the ABOVE questions by exploring the situation and questions BELOW:

Tell me about Joseph in Egypt.

• Was it God’s plan?
• Was it God’s will?
• Was it an accident?
• Was it a string of lucky/unlucky coincidences?

 

[atpollard]

Some SCRIPTURE to help:

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." - Genesis 50:20 [NKJV]

 

[civic]

Some SCRIPTURE to help:

"But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." - Genesis 50:20 [NKJV]

nothing about a plan there. the evil brothers made the plan not God. God just worked out their evil plan for His good. It never says it was Gods plan.

 

[atpollard]

nothing about a plan there. the evil brothers made the plan not God. God just worked out their evil plan for His good. It never says it was Gods plan.

So in your opinion, all of the events that befell Joseph in Egypt were a string of "unlucky" coincidences that ended in a fortuitous "lucky break" for Joseph that God was an impartial bystander throughout?

OK, agree to disagree.
"but God meant it for good" implies a deliberate intent on God's part, as deliberate as the brothers' intent when they "meant evil against me".

 

[atpollard]

Job 1:6-8 [NKJV]
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"

• Whose plan was it to test Job?
• God's plan or Satan's plan?
• Who manipulated and controlled whom?

 

[civic]

So in your opinion, all of the events that befell Joseph in Egypt were a string of "unlucky" coincidences that ended in a fortuitous "lucky break" for Joseph that God was an impartial bystander throughout?

OK, agree to disagree.
"but God meant it for good" implies a deliberate intent on God's part, as deliberate as the brothers' intent when they "meant evil against me".

nice try I said God did not plan the evil the brothers did to him. God took their evil intentions and plans and turned them into good. You are guilty of equivocating and conflating the two.

 

[atpollard]

nice try I said God did not plan the evil the brothers did to him. God took their evil intentions and plans and turned them into good. You are guilty of equivocating and conflating the two.

You are guilty of failing to clearly articulate your position, thus forcing others to GUESS at what you mean.
(You do it often.)

You are also quick to make accusations of others rather than address the points being discussed.
Since you seem to think I intend nothing but malice towards you, I shall respond less and leave you alone more.
(our exchanges are unprofitable)

 

[civic]

You are guilty of failing to clearly articulate your position, thus forcing others to GUESS at what you mean.
(You do it often.)

You are also quick to make accusations of others rather than address the points being discussed.
Since you seem to think I intend nothing but malice towards you, I shall respond less and leave you alone more.
(our exchanges are unprofitable)

I don't think you are malicious at all, you are far from it my friend. And even though I disagree with you on tulip you make good arguments. I think overall you are a very level headed guy.

 

[Rockson]

Job 1:6-8 [NKJV]
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."
Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"

You should take note before getting to your questions the Spiritual Kingdoms DID NOT believe God ordains everything. If so Satan would never have let God off without challenging his justice. Want the proof?

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Job 1:11

If they believed all things were ordained whether or no Satan would never have stated taking away Job's blessings would turn him against God. The devil would have just known it would make no difference. If God ordained Job not to reject God there would be no other option. Calvinism therefore fails.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The following questions were raised on another topic and deserve their own discussion.

Does God plan what He doesn’t want ?
Is Gods plan, Gods will ?

I offer as a starting point, a challenge to think about the ABOVE questions by exploring the situation and questions BELOW:

Tell me about Joseph in Egypt.

• Was it God’s plan?
• Was it God’s will?
• Was it an accident?
• Was it a string of lucky/unlucky coincidences?

You're assuming that God is a "control freak" just like most human beings are.......

If you don't control something, you fall to pieces and feel vulnerable and unfulfilled.

God isn't like this. He is self satisfying.

You need to ADD a few things to your theology. God doesn't need us, but we certainly need Him. He likes it when we recognizes this of our own volition.

Does God need you? What would happen to God if every single human being throughout all of history just "poof" vanished from existence tomorrow?

 

[praise_yeshua]

So in your opinion, all of the events that befell Joseph in Egypt were a string of "unlucky" coincidences that ended in a fortuitous "lucky break" for Joseph that God was an impartial bystander throughout?

OK, agree to disagree.
"but God meant it for good" implies a deliberate intent on God's part, as deliberate as the brothers' intent when they "meant evil against me".

The Scriptures use the word "chance" rather often.....

How about the "story" of the good Samaratan?

Luke 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

When someone runs a stop light and gets killed in an automobile accident, do you really tell everyone that "God did it"????

 

[praise_yeshua]

You are guilty of failing to clearly articulate your position, thus forcing others to GUESS at what you mean.
(You do it often.)

You are also quick to make accusations of others rather than address the points being discussed.
Since you seem to think I intend nothing but malice towards you, I shall respond less and leave you alone more.
(our exchanges are unprofitable)

What does the content of what we share mean anything?

I believe it does. I have an issue with the content of your position. I have no malice toward anyone. I fact, I'm probably one of the most "liberal" theologians you've ever meet when it comes to the mercy of God. I allow everyone to answer to God. However, this hardly ever comes across in what I write because of the necessity of dealing with the substance of Christian Theology. We are no better ourselves than what we believe.

 

[atpollard]

You should take note before getting to your questions the Spiritual Kingdoms DID NOT believe God ordains everything. If so Satan would never have let God off without challenging his justice. Want the proof?

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. Job 1:11

If they believed all things were ordained whether or no Satan would never have stated taking away Job's blessings would turn him against God. The devil would have just known it would make no difference. If God ordained Job not to reject God there would be no other option. Calvinism therefore fails.

... or Satan lacks Omniscience and does not know what God has ordained for Job. (Peter denied and Judas betrayed and God planned for both events - predicting them in advance). Satan thought he had a shot at turning Job, God knew Job's heart would not turn, so God goaded Satan into a "bet" that Satan would loose - for OUR good and God's GLORY!

Who created Job's heart? Who knew it? That "passive will" - what God permits, God still carefully controls.

1 Co 10:13 [NKJV] No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God [is] faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear [it].

Phl 2:13 [NKJV] for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.

 

[praise_yeshua]

... or Stan lacks Omniscience and does not know what God has ordained for Job. (Peter denied and Judas betrayed and God planned for both events - predicting them in advance). Satan thought he had a shot at turning Job, God knew Job's heart would not turn, so God goaded Satan into a "bet" that Satan would loose - for OUR good and God's GLORY!

Who created Job's heart? Who knew it? That "passive will" - what God permits, God still carefully controls.

1 Co 10:13 [NKJV] No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God [is] faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear [it].

Care to debate what you believe about the substance of what you believe about "Omniscience"?

There is much evil in such teachings as you have in this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The following questions were raised on another topic and deserve their own discussion.

Does God plan what He doesn’t want ?
Is Gods plan, Gods will ?

I offer as a starting point, a challenge to think about the ABOVE questions by exploring the situation and questions BELOW:

Tell me about Joseph in Egypt.

• Was it God’s plan?
• Was it God’s will?
• Was it an accident?
• Was it a string of lucky/unlucky coincidences?

I have to say this....

The very word "plan" requires Sequence. Progression. Cause and Effect.

If God "planned" then God.... REASONED. Which defeats the very notion of God causing everything in existence........

If God did it, it would be one single action without progressive thought or reason. I realized this a very long time ago. It really is very silly how man tries to quantify God.......

 

[Rockson]

... or Satan lacks Omniscience and does not know what God has ordained for Job.

So you're seeking to claim that Satan and all of his cohorts wouldn't have known things like what you Calvinist claim to be true in the Westminster Confession,

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass,

I wouldn't think so Bud if it were true.

(Peter denied and Judas betrayed and God planned for both events -

We can talk about Judas another time but you claim God planned for Peter to deny him? You can't demonstrate that at all.

Satan thought he had a shot at turning Job, God knew Job's heart would not turn, so God goaded Satan into a "bet" that Satan would loose - for OUR good and God's GLORY!

This doesn't make coherent sense. What do you mean for OUR good and God's glory. Sorry but it seems people of your position just roll out these noble terms and try to stamp them on your error. What glory? What glory? I mean tell me what glory is to be attained by having something confirmed (in your way of thinking) that men are like robots merely programed with no liberty to independently choose to LOVE or not LOVE? I exhort you to read these words carefully and give it some thought and don't just quickly respond. Give it some thought....

Consider......If the glorious thing God achieved was to demonstrate God controlled Job then that was the very thing Satan charged God of.....he basically said to God he serves you for only one reason.....the things YOU have done for him! God allowed Satan to do his thing to show that NO IT IS NOT! But understand what I'm saying here now.....you Calvinists are claiming YES it was.....you're claiming all his actions were locked in by God beforehand to respond a certain way. Not true. Please do yourself a favor and read the text. All of Job 1, please.

 

[Rockson]

1 Co 10:13 [NKJV] No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God [is] faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear [it].

Phl 2:13 [NKJV] for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.

These are great and true scriptures but how you use them with Calvinism is so distorted.

So you want us to believe God allows us to be tempted and there's no possibility we can fail. So you think temptation is like just demonstrating you put a product (let's call it a car) out in freezing temperatures to demonstrate as a guarantee that the battery is rated to still work ....and to the glory of the manufacturer (God) it does? Forgive the automotive analogies but I was from the auto sector in employment.

This would therefore have to mean taking it how you Calvinists do that no one , no Christian could ever sin or fail. Why? For you say temptation is for God's glory of all he ordains must succeed in the way you say. Having a way of escape doesn't mean the person can't choose otherwise is what you should consider.

And your use of Phil 2:13 is misapplied. For it is God who works in you to will and to do his good pleasure DOES NOT mean you're locked into a certain action or end result. It means he's encouraging you to do the right thing. Not ordained to but encouraged to.

 

[atpollard]

We can talk about Judas another time but you claim God planned for Peter to deny him? You can't demonstrate that at all.

OK ... God PLANNED for Peter to stand firm with Jesus and NEVER waiver. (Let's go with that as a premise).

Matthew 26:31-35 [NASB]
Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too.

Here we have what MAN (Peter) planned ... what Jesus KNEW (said) would happen ... what GOD planned (prophesy of the events according to Jesus) from at least as early as Zechariah 13:7.

So if our PREMISE [God PLANNED for Peter to stand firm with Jesus and NEVER waiver.] is correct, then Jesus misunderstood the Prophesy and God's plan failed.
If my original premise [God planned for Peter to deny him] is true, then Jesus correctly understood the prophesy and God's plan unfolded as God had predetermined it.
So which was God's will/plan? Peter standing firm, or Peter's denial?

[PS. Just because it was God's WILL/PLAN does not mean God CAUSED it ... that "secondary causes" and "permissive will" thing ... like when God allowed Satan to kill Job's family or God allowed Joseph's brothers to sell him to slavers or God "gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves," - Romans 1:24. It just means that it was part of God's bigger plan ... "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" - Genesis 50:20].

 

[atpollard]

What glory? What glory?

What is the end result of the book of Job.

• Does it encourage you or discourage you? (your GOOD or your HARM)?
• Did God receive GLORY or SHAME from the unfolding of events? (who was correct God or Satan?)

So was the book for our Good?
So was the book for God's Glory?

[That is what I mean.]

 

[praise_yeshua]

OK ... God PLANNED for Peter to stand firm with Jesus and NEVER waiver. (Let's go with that as a premise).

Matthew 26:31-35 [NASB]
Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away." Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." Peter said to Him, "Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You." All the disciples said the same thing too.

Here we have what MAN (Peter) planned ... what Jesus KNEW (said) would happen ... what GOD planned (prophesy of the events according to Jesus) from at least as early as Zechariah 13:7.

So if our PREMISE [God PLANNED for Peter to stand firm with Jesus and NEVER waiver.] is correct, then Jesus misunderstood the Prophesy and God's plan failed.
If my original premise [God planned for Peter to deny him] is true, then Jesus correctly understood the prophesy and God's plan unfolded as God had predetermined it.
So which was God's will/plan? Peter standing firm, or Peter's denial?

[PS. Just because it was God's WILL/PLAN does not mean God CAUSED it ... that "secondary causes" and "permissive will" thing ... like when God allowed Satan to kill Job's family or God allowed Joseph's brothers to sell him to slavers or God "gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves," - Romans 1:24. It just means that it was part of God's bigger plan ... "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good" - Genesis 50:20].

That ole "permissive will" thing...

What does "permissive" mean in your theology? The word "permissive" itself destroys your position. In fact, it is very odd for a Calvinist to actual use an Arminian argument relative to secondary cause to defend Calvinism.