Dishonoring the bodily sacrifice of Jesus Christ in Calvinism

[praise_yeshua]

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

I've quoted the KJV above because of the word "behoved" in the translation. Behoved is the most accurate English word to denote the necessity of Christ's suffering tied to the Priestly effort of Jesus Christ to redeem mankind.

The choice of Jesus Christ to become like man was "befitting, necessary, and the duty" of Christ in partaking of the bodily form of humanity. For Christ to accomplish redemption for flesh, Christ must become flesh.

It is absolutely essential that the Priestly order of Christ in redemption require the Incarnation of Deity/God. The fleshly form of humanity in Christ Jesus.

Most every Calvinist I know or have known, will agree with what I said above......

Where they will not agree and what is the subject of this thread.....is the fact that the Calvinist does not rightly recognize that Christ partook of the same exact flesh of all of humanity. When Christ "felt our infirmities" He did so for ALL of humanity. Not just for some as the Calvinists insist in the teaching of limited atonement.

Which dishonors the accomplishment of Jesus Christ in the Incarnation.

Christ suffered for all of humanity in bodily form. This is indisputable. The doctrine of "limited atonement" dishonors the accomplishments of Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[civic]

And we know the High Priest once a year went into the holy of holy's to make atonement for the people's sins and unintentional sins. This was for all Jews. Yet we know not all the Jews were saved and most perished lost.

The atonement made only for the elect/chose is a fallacy found nowhere in either testament. Its a man made doctrine. They do not understand the role of the priest or the atonement. The atonement was for all the people not just those who were saved. Yes it is dishonoring to our High Priest Jesus Christ who made atonement for all the sins of the world, not just some.

AMEN !

 

[Rockson]

When Christ "felt our infirmities" He did so for ALL of humanity.

Sure he did. It might help too if we think that every human being was once a child. Remember what Jesus said when the disciples tried to stop them from coming to Jesus?

Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 19:13

Really though a Calvinist would have Jesus if he was like they say he was, that Jesus would say, "Hold it now just hold it! No don't let all the children come but only a few! You there, and you, and you ......sorry but I have no blessing to give the others! I better not even give you a smile for if I do you might get a false impression that I love you!"

So the question is. Is this the Jesus and God of the Bible? The answer to that is NO! God loves all and wants to bless all with salvation.

 

[civic]

Sure he did. It might help too if we think that every human being was once a child. Remember what Jesus said when the disciples tried to stop them from coming to Jesus?

Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. 14But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 19:13

Really though a Calvinist would have Jesus if he was like they say he was, that Jesus would say, "Hold it now just hold it! No don't let all the children come but only a few! You there, and you, and you ......sorry but I have no blessing to give the others! I better not even give you a smile for if I do you might get a false impression that I love you!"

So the question is. Is this the Jesus and God of the Bible? The answer to that is NO! God loves all and wants to bless all with salvation.

And the reason He became one of us is because every single human being was/is created in the image/likeness of God and therefor has redeemable worth in the sight of God. Its why Christ is the Savior of the world, all men, everyone and why He made propitiation/atonement for all the sins of the world-everyone.

AMEN brother !!!

 

[civic]

Also its why WE can say to everyone without exception that Jesus loves them, died for them and desires their salvation. We can preach/teach the true Gospel to everyone without distinction. The Savior of the world loves everyone not just some. The calvinist cannot tell everyone Jesus loves them and died for their sins since they have no idea who is elect/chosen.

 

[Rockson]

Also its why WE can say to everyone without exception that Jesus loves them, died for them and desires their salvation. We can preach/teach the true Gospel to everyone without distinction. The Savior of the world loves everyone not just some. The calvinist cannot tell everyone Jesus loves them and died for their sins since they have no idea who is elect/chosen.

I think the following pretty much reflects the Calvinists message.

Let's think of the Prodigal Son story.

This is what Calvinism does to it.

So you have the Father. You have the prodigal son. Now imagine the prodigal out there living in sin. He's in the pig pen feeling guilt and shame and wondering if it's a sure thing the Father will allow him back home. He's hoping it is and that the Father loves all sinners. A couple of theologians visit the pig farm. They tell the young lad, "Well come on now! You have no guarantee the Father loves you and more times than not he doesn't and actually hates people like you. The young lad feel demoralized and discouraged. He decides why even bother? It'd just break my heart too much to have him turn him down and if he actually ordained me to be this way then I guess I've just got to settle up that this is my lot in life!!"

Meanwhile the Father back at the home his heart is breaking wanting to see this human being restored and brought back into into restoration again. The false messengers however had robbed the good Father of his heart felt longing and dream!

 

[TomL]

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

I've quoted the KJV above because of the word "behoved" in the translation. Behoved is the most accurate English word to denote the necessity of Christ's suffering tied to the Priestly effort of Jesus Christ to redeem mankind.

The choice of Jesus Christ to become like man was "befitting, necessary, and the duty" of Christ in partaking of the bodily form of humanity. For Christ to accomplish redemption for flesh, Christ must become flesh.

It is absolutely essential that the Priestly order of Christ in redemption require the Incarnation of Deity/God. The fleshly form of humanity in Christ Jesus.

Most every Calvinist I know or have known, will agree with what I said above......

Where they will not agree and what is the subject of this thread.....is the fact that the Calvinist does not rightly recognize that Christ partook of the same exact flesh of all of humanity. When Christ "felt our infirmities" He did so for ALL of humanity. Not just for some as the Calvinists insist in the teaching of limited atonement.

Which dishonors the accomplishment of Jesus Christ in the Incarnation.

Christ suffered for all of humanity in bodily form. This is indisputable. The doctrine of "limited atonement" dishonors the accomplishments of Jesus Christ.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 2:14–18 (KJV 1900) — 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Isn't it ridiculous to believe that Christ suffered in His flesh...... for those He can not save?

 

[TomL]

Isn't it ridiculous to believe that Christ suffered in His flesh...... for those He can not save?

Assuming you refer to those who will not believe Not really

The same amount of suffering would have been needed regardless

and a unlimited atonementit leaves all without excuse and testifies to God's love for the world

scripture settles the issue

John 1:29 (ESV) — 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42 (ESV) — 42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

John 6:51 (ESV) — 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

1 John 4:14 (ESV) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 2:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



Jesus said to those opposing him

John 6:31–33 (KJV 1900) — 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 (KJV 1900) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

and even concerning Judas

Luke 22:14–22 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

but perhaps you have another meaning in mind

 

[civic]

Isn't it ridiculous to believe that Christ suffered in His flesh...... for those He can not save?

Ditto

 

[brightfame52]

@praise_yeshua

Where they will not agree and what is the subject of this thread.....is the fact that the Calvinist does not rightly recognize that Christ partook of the same exact flesh of all of humanity.

Actually thats false, He came to Identify in the flesh with the elect race, the chosen children of God in the flesh, the seed of Abraham Heb 2:14-16

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Ps 105 6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

 

[TomL]

@praise_yeshua



Actually thats false, He came to Identify in the flesh with the elect race, the chosen children of God in the flesh, the seed of Abraham Heb 2:14-16

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Ps 105 6

O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

So do you believe Christ suffering from total depravity?

Even the elect are born totally depraved according to standard Calvinist theology

 

[brightfame52]

So do you believe Christ suffering from total depravity?

Even the elect are born totally depraved according to standard Calvinist theology

I dont know what you talking about. My point is Christ didnt come to Identify with all mankind, but only a portion, a chosen seed.

 

[TomL]

I dont know what you talking about. My point is Christ didnt come to Identify with all mankind, but only a portion, a chosen seed.

and that portion is born totally depraved according to standard Calvinist thought.

Is that also your conception of how Christ came?

 

[civic]

I dont know what you talking about. My point is Christ didnt come to Identify with all mankind, but only a portion, a chosen seed.

you are running away from his question, why is that ?

 

[Theophilus]

I dont know what you talking about. My point is Christ didnt come to Identify with all mankind, but only a portion, a chosen seed.

I know what I'm talking about:

All means all not a portion.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. John 12:32

Jesus had used the phrase about being "lifted up" before. During His conversation with the Pharisee Nicodemus, Jesus said "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life" John 3:14–15

Whosoever means anyone that believes in chooses Jesus Christ as Savior.

"now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I… will draw ALL people to myself" John 12:31–32

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I know what I'm talking about:

All means all not a portion.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. John 12:32

Jesus had used the phrase about being "lifted up" before. During His conversation with the Pharisee Nicodemus, Jesus said "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life" John 3:14–15

Whosoever means anyone that believes in chooses Jesus Christ as Savior.

"now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I… will draw ALL people to myself" John 12:31–32

All can mean All Without Distinction, meaning both Jews and Gentiles. You want it to mean All Without Exception. But the verse, taken alone, says neither.

 

[Theophilus]

All can mean All Without Distinction, meaning both Jews and Gentiles. You want it to mean All Without Exception. But the verse, taken alone, says neither.

That's nice but it's not what it says. All means all which would include both Jews and gentiles. Calvinism wants all to mean only the elect. The only exception is some will choose Jesus unto salvation and some will not. They make their own free will choice.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

That's nice but it's not what it says. All means all which would include both Jews and gentiles. Calvinism wants all to mean only the elect. The only exception is some will choose Jesus unto salvation and some will not. They make their own free will choice.

It says ALL. It doesn't say All Without Exception OR All Without Distinction. You have to get that information elsewhere. Try 1 Timothy 2.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Assuming you refer to those who will not believe Not really

The same amount of suffering would have been needed regardless

and a unlimited atonementit leaves all without excuse and testifies to God's love for the world

scripture settles the issue

John 1:29 (ESV) — 29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 4:42 (ESV) — 42 They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”

John 6:51 (ESV) — 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

1 John 4:14 (ESV) — 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 John 2:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 3:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.



Jesus said to those opposing him

John 6:31–33 (KJV 1900) — 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

John 6:51 (KJV 1900) — 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

and even concerning Judas

Luke 22:14–22 (KJV 1900) — 14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. 22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

but perhaps you have another meaning in mind

The totality of suffering would vary based upon all those with whom Christ empathized with in the bodily Priesthood experienced via the Incarnation.