"Died for sins." What EXACTLY does that mean?

dizerner

Well-known member
We've all heard it. "Jesus died for our sins."

But what exactly does that even really mean?

that Christ died on behalf of our sins according to the Scriptures; (1 Cor. 15:3 MLV)


A drug addict has robbed a convenience store. A bystander called the cops. It ends in a long car chase, the addict crashing into a ditch and making a run for it.

"Stop! STOP POLICE! I will shoot!!"

But he is high and not thinking straight and just wants to get away.

BAM, BAM, BAM!

A bystander watching turns to his friend...

"Man, that guy just died for sins."


Is that how Jesus died for sins?

Well, almost no one believes this since the Bible plainly tells us Jesus was without sin.


Okay, let's try another scenario.

Same scene, same robbery, same addict, same car chase. But this time the guy drives into an innocent pedestrian, running him over.

A man watching says to his son:

"Man, that guy just died for sins."


So is that what it means for Jesus to die for sins, that someone acting sinfully just happened to kill him?

A few people might accept this version, all Jesus was, was a victim who got in with some criminals... he died for sins.

But Jesus died for "the sins of the whole world."

We weren't all there arresting and flogging and killing Jesus.... so it can't be that.


Let's try another scenario.

Same scene, same robbery, same addict, same car chase. But this time the addicts father is standing in the way of the car.

"Son, please don't do this, I didn't raise you this way, I'm begging you please stop."

Coldly and cruelly he raises his gun, and shoots his own father.

A bystander mutters, "Man, that guy just died for sins."


Have we finally got it now? We've discovered what Jesus did for us, he stepped in the way of sin, begged us to stop, and then died to show us how bad we've gotten?

Now that sacrifice might have a good moral influence on his son, and shame him into a change for the better.

That sacrifice might really show how strongly the father hated his sin, and took a stand against it.

That sacrifice might even have kept his son out of jail and from a life of evil thugs taking advantage of him.

But is this all Jesus' death really means?


I want you to consider this.

I want you to consider that in the last scenario there is no actual justice for the man's crimes being upheld.

There is no substitution, there is nothing penal, and there is nothing actually producing a valid method of covering or paying back what was done.

It was a noble deed, for sure, it was a sacrificial deed, no doubt about it, it might even produce a good change, not in question.

But the actual law was in no way upheld.

The death of the ones "dying for sins" in no way fulfilled or upheld actual justice of the law of the land.


Now I want you to consider how Jesus talks about the Law.

The Law was fulfilled, it was upheld, it was not skipped over, set aside, or ignored.

When we say:

Jesus died for our sins.

What the Bible means, what we should mean, is that God upheld his holiness and punished sin.


No loopholes.

No discounts.

"Christ suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring us to God."
 
Lets have the One who Atoned for sins tell us what it means. If anyone should know what His death means its JESUS !

How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?

Where is the punishment from God according to Jesus ?

Why Did Jesus leave that out ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation. He never hinted at propitiation- appeasing an angry god. That is paganism.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

conclusion: wrath from Father to Son is not biblical, its anti-biblical.

hope this helps !!!
 
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He never hinted at propitiation- appeasing an angry god. That is paganism.

First of all, that is not paganism.



Second of all, you are double speaking and violating your own stated beliefs.

If at any point you believe:

1. There is a point in time when God was angry with the sinner for sin.
2. Jesus does "something."
3. There is a point in time that because of what Jesus did God is NO LONGER angry with the sinner.


If you believe the above points, that is ALREADY THE DEFINITION OF PROPITIATION.


conclusion: wrath from Father to Son is not biblical, its anti-biblical.

And thus why you don't want Isaac to be a type of Christ and Isaiah 53 to be about Jesus.

Logically it's the price of sin, and we all know that.

It's PRIDE to not want Jesus to have to pay FOR YOUR SINS.


The NT DIRECTLY TELLS US ISAIAH 53 IS COMPLETELY ABOUT JESUS:

29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth."
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?"
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. (Acts 8:29-35 NKJ)
 
First of all, that is not paganism.



Second of all, you are double speaking and violating your own stated beliefs.

If at any point you believe:

1. There is a point in time when God was angry with the sinner for sin.
2. Jesus does "something."
3. There is a point in time that because of what Jesus did God is NO LONGER angry with the sinner.


If you believe the above points, that is ALREADY THE DEFINITION OF PROPITIATION.




And thus why you don't want Isaac to be a type of Christ and Isaiah 53 to be about Jesus.

Logically it's the price of sin, and we all know that.

It's PRIDE to not want Jesus to have to pay FOR YOUR SINS.


The NT DIRECTLY TELLS US ISAIAH 53 IS COMPLETELY ABOUT JESUS:

29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth."
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?"
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. (Acts 8:29-35 NKJ)
Nice try I said the Father was never angry with the Son so stop with the equivocating. You are arguing a strawman.
 
First of all, that is not paganism.



Second of all, you are double speaking and violating your own stated beliefs.

If at any point you believe:

1. There is a point in time when God was angry with the sinner for sin.
2. Jesus does "something."
3. There is a point in time that because of what Jesus did God is NO LONGER angry with the sinner.


If you believe the above points, that is ALREADY THE DEFINITION OF PROPITIATION.




And thus why you don't want Isaac to be a type of Christ and Isaiah 53 to be about Jesus.

Logically it's the price of sin, and we all know that.

It's PRIDE to not want Jesus to have to pay FOR YOUR SINS.


The NT DIRECTLY TELLS US ISAIAH 53 IS COMPLETELY ABOUT JESUS:

29 Then the Spirit said to Philip, "Go near and overtake this chariot."
30 So Philip ran to him, and heard him reading the prophet Isaiah, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
31 And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?" And he asked Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 The place in the Scripture which he read was this: "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; And as a lamb before its shearer is silent, So He opened not His mouth.
33 In His humiliation His justice was taken away, And who will declare His generation? For His life is taken from the earth."
34 So the eunuch answered Philip and said, "I ask you, of whom does the prophet say this, of himself or of some other man?"
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. (Acts 8:29-35 NKJ)
I've dismantled the Isaiah 53 passage in my thread here.


 
If at any point you believe:

1. There is a point in time when God was angry with the sinner for sin.
2. Jesus does "something."
3. There is a point in time that because of what Jesus did God is NO LONGER angry with the sinner.


If you believe the above points, that is ALREADY THE DEFINITION OF PROPITIATION.
You left out some steps. Let me clean it up.
  1. There is a point in time when God is angry with the sinner for sinning.
  2. God points out the sin and commands repentance.
  3. Man repents and stops the sin that angers God.
  4. God is no longer angry with the repentant man, but man's sin alienates him from God relationally because conformity to God's commands has been broken. Therefore, God does not desire the man to perish out of love for him, but the sin he committed demands death.
  5. Out of His abundant mercy and grace, God accepts the death of a willing sinless Man on the account of the sinner's sin as debt satisfied. Now all who trust God to justify them receive the forgiveness of sin/the gift of being right with God by believing the willing sinless Man died for their sins and none of His own.
  6. Not only did God desire to reconcile man to Himself as in steps 1-5, but He also wanted to put an end to the very thing that causes the issue in the first place, sin. God designed a plan to not only reconcile man, but to put and end to sin, and bring in everlasting righteousness; for us being right with God eternally by conforming us into the image of the sinless Man, Jesus Christ His Son.
  7. Therefore, the sinless Man Jesus Christ resurrects from death and is glorified with an immortal body and given a Kingdom and people that will last forever. This sinless Man Jesus Christ breaks the hold the devil had over man with death, now having all power and authority over death and the grave.
  8. This same sinless Man Jesus Christ received from the Father His eternal Spirit that He shares with all who repent and believe in Him, calling out to be saved from the wrath of God for their sins.
  9. Now, all those who receive God's Spirit are born again with a new life, for the life they now live is not to sinful passions of their natural self, but to the Spirit of God who gives them life; thus now living as God desires and not enslaved to sin.
  10. At God's timing, the sinless Man Jesus Christ who was given all power and authority will come back in His glorified state and raise all to life and judge each man. "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury."
There is no appeasement of God's wrath for the unrepentant. There is only "a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries of God". But, there is an aversion of wrath/a ransom all for those who trust God to justify them. Their sin have been forgiven, taken off the books so to say, because "whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

God the Father absolutely did not "pour His wrath out upon His Son". That did not happen, and you will never find that mentioned contextually in the bible. It is read into the bible. "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself". The terms ransom and redeemed are used plentiful times to express what happened. We are "the assembly of the Lord and God which he purchased with his own blood."

Jesus Christ, God's Son, willing gave up His life as a sin offering that reconciles us back to God because He died on our behalf for our sins. This is what averts the wrath of God towards us for our sins. This is called being saved by mercy. God mercifully accepts the sinless life of another to satisfy the debt owned to the law of sin and death. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

One man brought sin and death into our world, and by one Man's "single act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men".

Our sins and guilt have been removed by God's loving grace. This is called expiation.

God Bless
 
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the Lord Jesus died for our sins that are "PAST" before we come unto to him. PAST..... Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

101G.
 
The definition of sin is death.
The definition of death is sin.
Sin is death and death is sin.
This is completely foreign to God in eternity in Himself.
But in TIME with the creation of heaven, earth, and man death and sin came into existence.
Anything and anyone not God are sin (and death.)
 
Jesus Christ, God's Son, willing gave up His life as a sin offering that reconciles us back to God because He died on our behalf for our sins. This is what averts the wrath of God towards us for our sins. This is called being saved by mercy. God mercifully accepts the sinless life of another to satisfy the debt owned to the law of sin and death. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

I'm trying to clarify your position in my own mind. Would you say that Jesus' death facilitated salvation? Or was it necessary for salvation? I currently believe the former. I believe God could have forgiven us without the death of Jesus.
 
I'm trying to clarify your position in my own mind. Would you say that Jesus' death facilitated salvation? Or was it necessary for salvation? I currently believe the former. I believe God could have forgiven us without the death of Jesus.
In my understanding, our Lord's sacrificial death was necessary for our salvation-to save us from God's judgment upon sin and those who sin. The law of sin and death gripped us all. Our Lord willingly took upon Himself the judgment for our sin; that being death, so that in His sacrificial death, His single act of righteousness was greater then the single act of disobedience that brought us all under sin and death (ref: Rom 5:15-19).

His death was necessary to demonstrate that God is righteous. This does not mean God couldn't forgive sin without dealing with the sinner's unrighteousness at that time, for in God's forbearance-temporary patience-He overlooked people's sin, but has now dealt with them in the death of His Son.

(Rom 3:24-25, GNB) "But by the free gift of God's grace all are put right with him through Christ Jesus, who sets them free. (25-26) God offered him, so that by his blood he should become the means by which people's sins are forgiven through their faith in him. God did this in order to demonstrate that he is righteous. In the past he was patient and overlooked people's sins; but in the present time he deals with their sins, in order to demonstrate his righteousness. In this way God shows that he himself is righteous and that he puts right everyone who believes in Jesus."

God Bless
 
I'm trying to clarify your position in my own mind. Would you say that Jesus' death facilitated salvation? Or was it necessary for salvation? I currently believe the former. I believe God could have forgiven us without the death of Jesus.

"without the shedding of Blood there is no remission... no forgiveness of sin".

If you have a bible, you might read the OT, and notice that animals were sacrificed as their BLOOD "covered" the sin of Israel... of the people, for a time.
But it never redeemed them from their sin... in other words it never had the eternal ability to deal with their sin, once and for all

So, God, wrapped Himself in Human flesh, and shed HIS Blood, as the "eternal sacrifice for sin".

"God hath made JESUS....to BE SIN.....for us".

"Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin"..

So, Had there been no Cross, no shed blood and death and resurrection of the Savior, then we would still be IN our sin.

But through this BLOOD ATONEMENT that is the Cross of Christ......a SINNER can have their SIN "washed as white as snow"

"What can wash away my sin....

Noting but the Blood of Jesus

Oh Crimson is the flow, that makes me white as Snow.."

A.) = Nothing but the BLOOD of Jesus.
 
In my understanding, our Lord's sacrificial death was necessary for our salvation-to save us from God's judgment upon sin and those who sin. The law of sin and death gripped us all. Our Lord willingly took upon Himself the judgment for our sin; that being death, so that in His sacrificial death, His single act of righteousness was greater then the single act of disobedience that brought us all under sin and death (ref: Rom 5:15-19).

His death was necessary to demonstrate that God is righteous. This does not mean God couldn't forgive sin without dealing with the sinner's unrighteousness at that time, for in God's forbearance-temporary patience-He overlooked people's sin, but has now dealt with them in the death of His Son.

(Rom 3:24-25, GNB) "But by the free gift of God's grace all are put right with him through Christ Jesus, who sets them free. (25-26) God offered him, so that by his blood he should become the means by which people's sins are forgiven through their faith in him. God did this in order to demonstrate that he is righteous. In the past he was patient and overlooked people's sins; but in the present time he deals with their sins, in order to demonstrate his righteousness. In this way God shows that he himself is righteous and that he puts right everyone who believes in Jesus."

God Bless

Thank you for your reply. If I understand correctly, while you don't believe that Jesus took God's wrath at the cross, you do believe that Jesus was sacrificed so that God would not pour his wrath out on us. If that is not correct please let me know.
 
"without the shedding of Blood there is no remission... no forgiveness of sin".

If you have a bible, you might read the OT, and notice that animals were sacrificed as their BLOOD "covered" the sin of Israel... of the people, for a time.
But it never redeemed them from their sin... in other words it never had the eternal ability to deal with their sin, once and for all

So, God, wrapped Himself in Human flesh, and shed HIS Blood, as the "eternal sacrifice for sin".

"God hath made JESUS....to BE SIN.....for us".

"Jesus is the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice for sin"..

So, Had there been no Cross, no shed blood and death and resurrection of the Savior, then we would still be IN our sin.

But through this BLOOD ATONEMENT that is the Cross of Christ......a SINNER can have their SIN "washed as white as snow"

"What can wash away my sin....

Noting but the Blood of Jesus

Oh Crimson is the flow, that makes me white as Snow.."

A.) = Nothing but the BLOOD of Jesus.

Given God's clear prohibition of human sacrifice, and that God could forgive sins without human sacrifice, I have trouble with assuming that the passages you cite state otherwise. Paul is very difficult to understand, as John admits. While Pauls statements can't be ignored (of course) we need to be careful in exegeting them. We must interpret the hazy in light of the clear.
 
We've all heard it. "Jesus died for our sins."

But what exactly does that even really mean?
Isa 53:10-12 is your answer. Jesus' death was a SIN OFFERING in BLOOD. The OLD TESTAMENT "Day of atonement" was a SIN OFFERING in Blood, but as Hebrews states, cattle blood can't CLEANSE/REMOVE SIN - it can only "cover it temporarily".

JESUS' BLOOD, on the other hand, is a ONCE FOR ALL SIN OFFERING, that cleanses/Removes SIN completely for those who's FAITH (gifted by God) is placed in it. offering. (Eph 2:8,9)
 
Thank you for your reply. If I understand correctly, while you don't believe that Jesus took God's wrath at the cross, you do believe that Jesus was sacrificed so that God would not pour his wrath out on us. If that is not correct please let me know.
Yes, that is a fair assessment. We are saved from God's judgement upon sin by the "redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace".

Our freedom from the deserved judgement for our sins was purchased by the sinless life of another who willingly and purposely died on our behalf explicitly for our sins. This effectively put an end to sin (ref: Heb 9:26-28), for the death it demands has been fulfilled by our Lord for our sake. He bore our sins on the cross of His death, so that we would be free from slavery to sin in our flesh and live to God by the Spirit. We now await by faith for the fullness of the salvation promised to us, the redemption of our bodies, the resurrection unto eternal life. And all of this wonderful grace and mercy of God is accessed, obtained, and experienced by faith.

God Bless
 
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Given God's clear prohibition of human sacrifice, and that God could forgive sins without human sacrifice,

God is sacrificing Himself as Christ on the Cross for the sin of the world
So, thats a different situation then children being sacrificed to Satan, ect.

Paul is very difficult to understand, as John admits.

John never said that.
Its Peter who said that.

While Pauls statements can't be ignored (of course) we need to be careful in exegeting them

Paul wrote the doctrine for the Church.
Its a "must learn".

Start here. :

1.) Romans 3:21-28

2.) Hebrews 13:9

3.) 2 Corinthians 5:19

4.) John 3:17

5.) Romans 4:8
 
• Jesus died for you in two ways, as an illustration or example and as a substitution. (1 Peter 2:21, 24)
• In terms of substitution, Christ bore our sins, our condemnation, when he died on the cross. (1 Peter 2:24)
• Christ suffered on the cross, “the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God.” With his death, he bridges or overcomes the chasm between sinners and a holy God. (1 Peter 3:18)
• Our sin (1 Peter 2:24) is our failure to follow in Jesus’s steps (1 Peter 2:21). Christ died for our sin (substitution) so that we might live like him (illustration).


John Piper
 
Galatians 1:4: The Lord Jesus Christ is the One “who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father.” He gave Himself for our sins; He paid the penalty and provided atonement.
Good old got questions explains it real well
 
Lets have the One who Atoned for sins tell us what it means. If anyone should know what His death means its JESUS !

How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?

Where is the punishment from God according to Jesus ?

Why Did Jesus leave that out ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation. He never hinted at propitiation- appeasing an angry god. That is paganism.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15 Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28

conclusion: wrath from Father to Son is not biblical, its anti-biblical.

hope this helps !!!
It doesn't, because Jesus doesn't even broach on the subject. Again, the cross wasn't club med. Jesus sweat drops of blood due to the enormous strain as He knew what He was to face. He even asked the Father if the cup (of what?) could pass by, but His will be done. Jesus faced wrath on our behalf. If, however, you can't put that into proper perspective, just accept that something happened that you can't explain. Don't trample on what Jesus did.
 
It doesn't, because Jesus doesn't even broach on the subject. Again, the cross wasn't club med. Jesus sweat drops of blood due to the enormous strain as He knew what He was to face. He even asked the Father if the cup (of what?) could pass by, but His will be done. Jesus faced wrath on our behalf. If, however, you can't put that into proper perspective, just accept that something happened that you can't explain. Don't trample on what Jesus did.
I explain it to another Calvinist today here

 
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