Appeasement of a Monster God?

[Fitzpatrick]

Here is some more

21. R. C. Sproul: "It was as if there was a cry from heaven - excuse my language, but I can be no more accurate than to say - it was as if Jesus heard the words 'God Damn You.' Because that's what it meant to be cursed, to be damned, to be under the anathema of the Father. As I said, I don't understand that, but I know that it's true."

R. C. Sproul, "And God Cursed Him," April 19, 2019, https://www.ligonier.org/blog/god-cursed-him/, Accessed 03 December 2019.

22. R. C. Sproul: "God is too holy to even look at iniquity. God the Father turned His back on the Son, cursing Him to the pit of hell while He hung on the cross. Here was the Son’s “descent into hell.” Here the fury of God raged against Him. His scream was the scream of the damned. For us."

R. C. Sproul, "Treasuring Redemption’s Price," September 13, 2009, https://www.ligonier.org/blog/treasuring-redemptions-price/, Accessed 30 November 2019.

contains addition quotes from other writers

Is It Biblical To Say Jesus Was Damned By God On The Cross?

1. The Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is ...

christisallinall.blogspot.com

I can't listen to that, Just the title turns me off.

 

[TomL]

I can't listen to that, Just the title turns me off.

I hear you.

 

[Fitzpatrick]

Note that not only does Christ sacrifice himself on behalf of others, die in their place, and settle their account of sin, but he also becomes a “curse”—bearing that which should have fallen on sinful humanity. This is the very heart of penal substitution; the innocent receives the penalty due the guilty, and the guilty receive the pardon due the innocent.

 

[TomL]

Note that not only does Christ sacrifice himself on behalf of others, die in their place, and settle their account of sin, but he also becomes a “curse”—bearing that which should have fallen on sinful humanity. This is the very heart of penal substitution; the innocent receives the penalty due the guilty, and the guilty receive the pardon due the innocent.

The curse resides in the fact that he was hung on a tree

Galatians 3:13 (ESV) — 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

 

[Azriel]

The curse resides in the fact that he was hung on a tree

Galatians 3:13 (ESV) — 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—

That goes along with our little discussion about Judas. Did he hang from a tree? Inquiring minds want to know.

How did Judas die? | GotQuestions.org

How did Judas die? Why do the accounts of Judas' death in Matthew and Acts seem to contradict each other?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[TomL]

That goes along with our little discussion about Judas. Did he hang from a tree? Inquiring minds want to know.

How did Judas die? | GotQuestions.org

How did Judas die? Why do the accounts of Judas' death in Matthew and Acts seem to contradict each other?

www.gotquestions.org

Yes but he was not held up and falling he burst apart

 

[TedT]

Monster God Is right.. if it’s true that God’s wrath must be appeased by sacrificing his own Son, then don’t we have to conclude that pagans who have throughout history sacrificed their children to appease the gods’ wrath had the right intuition, even if they expressed it in the wrong way? I mean we should be imitators of God right?

Wrong. Amazingly wrong!

GOD did not sacrifice Christ for us...Christ is our GOD!
The Divine Son chose to be the sacrifice for us to appease the legal requirements of our redemption. No one forced Him to die, no one sacrificed Him against His will such as we find in all the examples of pagan sacrifice.

Pagans sacrifice other people for their own sin - they don't sacrifice themselves for another's sin. Copy them and die with them...

 

[Fitzpatrick]

Wrong. Amazingly wrong!

GOD did not sacrifice Christ for us...Christ is our GOD!
The Divine Son chose to be the sacrifice for us to appease the legal requirements of our redemption. No one forced Him to die, no one sacrificed Him against His will such as we find in all the examples of pagan sacrifice.

Pagans sacrifice other people for their own sin - they don't sacrifice themselves for another's sin. Copy them and die with them...

No one took his life from, him he laid it down. The plan started in the Garden of Eden.

 

[civic]

Hi Fitzpatrick have you read psalm 22 in view of Jesus, God didn't hide his face from him, when Jesus cried out God heard and reacted

Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Exactly !!!

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

 

[civic]

Here is some more

21. R. C. Sproul: "It was as if there was a cry from heaven - excuse my language, but I can be no more accurate than to say - it was as if Jesus heard the words 'God Damn You.' Because that's what it meant to be cursed, to be damned, to be under the anathema of the Father. As I said, I don't understand that, but I know that it's true."

R. C. Sproul, "And God Cursed Him," April 19, 2019, https://www.ligonier.org/blog/god-cursed-him/, Accessed 03 December 2019.

22. R. C. Sproul: "God is too holy to even look at iniquity. God the Father turned His back on the Son, cursing Him to the pit of hell while He hung on the cross. Here was the Son’s “descent into hell.” Here the fury of God raged against Him. His scream was the scream of the damned. For us."

R. C. Sproul, "Treasuring Redemption’s Price," September 13, 2009, https://www.ligonier.org/blog/treasuring-redemptions-price/, Accessed 30 November 2019.

contains addition quotes from other writers

Is It Biblical To Say Jesus Was Damned By God On The Cross?

1. The Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul: "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is ...

christisallinall.blogspot.com

HORRIFIC to say the least- that is so disgusting. what an assault on Gods Good character. its sickening how people can believe such nonsense and false teaching.

 

[TomL]

HORRIFIC to say the least- that is so disgusting. what an assault on Gods Good character. its sickening how people can believe such nonsense and false teaching.

False doctrine leads to other false doctrine.

 

[Wilber]

Man, this is a really good thread. I think that penal substitution is not the most valid theory of the atonement, and that PSA is not able to absorb all the biblical data on this crucial theme. I hope to learn more about it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hopefully this thread will demonstrate that penal substitution is taught in Scripture. This cannot be denied. It integrates with other biblical themes such as the justice of God, the love of God, the truthfulness of God.

I think God reveals Himself and teaches through models, discourses, metaphors, myths, parables, etc. that make sense to people at a given time.

The penal substitutionary atonement is certainly a model used in the Bible to teach about how God deals with our sins.
But it is not the only model.
When you review Jesus explicit teachings of forgiveness, in which He had ample opportunity to explain how God's mercy works, He made no mentioning of a penal substitutionary atonement. We are talking here about Jesus, who knew more than anyone else about salvation!
Take the parable of the King who forgives the debt of his servant, and the parable of the prodigal son. No penal substitutionary atonement.
And this is not just in the New Testament. Psalm 51 shows how King David expected to be forgiven and renewed (regenerated). There is nothing in Psalm 51 that remotely resembles a penal substitutionary atonement.

 

[Dizerner]

When you review Jesus explicit teachings of forgiveness, in which He had ample opportunity to explain how God's mercy works, He made no mentioning of a penal substitutionary atonement. We are talking here about Jesus, who knew more than anyone else about salvation!
Take the parable of the King who forgives the debt of his servant, and the parable of the prodigal son. No penal substitutionary atonement.
And this is not just in the New Testament. Psalm 51 shows how King David expected to be forgiven and renewed (regenerated). There is nothing in Psalm 51 that remotely resembles a penal substitutionary atonement.

These kinds of objections are really terribly unfair.

It's like saying "Prove from the book of Esther that Jesus had to die for sins."

We believe in the INSPIRATION of Scripture. That no ONE book and no ONE verse says every truth.

The Gospels were written and inspired with the knowledge that God had MORE to say about it—that Paul was coming around with something important delivered directly from Jesus Christ.

So let us drop the whole, "But I don't see the truth in only portion X of the entire Bible."

The Bible is meant to be taken as a WHOLE—ALL Scripture is inspired of God.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

These kinds of objections are really terribly unfair.

It's like saying "Prove from the book of Esther that Jesus had to die for sins."

Not unfair at all, my brother. If the Book of Esther, or part of it, focused on the future Messiah and how He would bring salvation to Israel, we would be fully justified to expect the Book of Esther to explain the subject. Remember, we are not talking about a secondary doctrine. We're talking about the most important of all doctrines, at least for men.


The passages I have presented to you are

• long (Psalm 51 is the longest piece of text in the whole Bible in which a person ask God for forgiveness and renewal)
• specifically addressing the theme of forgiveness. They are not marginal notes on an essay written with other purpose. Psalm 51 is specifically about forgiveness, and the parables of the king who forgives the debt of his servant, and the prodigal son, are specifically about forgiveness.
• pronounced by Jesus, (in the case of the two parables) who was specifically sent to the world for salvation. The person who knew more about salvation.

There is still more, my friend Dizerner. Much more:

Jesus taught us how to ask forgiveness to God when we pray. So He had a fantastic opportunity to introduce a confession about Jesus deity, penal substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection to accompany such prayer. Jesus didn't bother to mention a single word about that. In contrast, He did mention that God expected us to forgive our debtors as we expect to be forgiven.

"And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors."
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:12,14)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We believe in the INSPIRATION of Scripture. That no ONE book and no ONE verse says every truth.

I agree with you.
I will be presenting to you evidence from both the Old Testament and New Testament.
Not isolated verses, but whole passages written specifically to address the subject in question.

I know you will bring me texts from Paul. But I would like to respectfully remind you 3 things

1. Christ was not a disciple of Paul. Paul was a disciple of Christ. So, the writings of Paul should be interpreted in the light of what Jesus preached and did. We shouldn't interpret Jesus in the light of what Paul wrote or did.
2. The evangelists already knew Paul theology when they wrote the gospels. And yet, they recorded no words from Jesus demanding belief in his deity, PSA or physical resurrection as a condition to be forgiven by God.
3. Paul wrote his letters within a narrow period of, say, 30-40 years. God had been forgiving people for thousands of years, and revealing how He does it. Do you think that Paul changed overnight God's method of salvation? Or was Paul focusing on one aspect of God's salvation that was relevant for the needs of the churches at that time? We will examine that carefully.

The Gospels were written and inspired with the knowledge that God had MORE to say about it—that Paul was coming around with something important delivered directly from Jesus Christ.

I would like to respectfully remind you 3 things

1. Christ was not a disciple of Paul. Paul was a disciple of Christ. So, the writings of Paul should be interpreted in the light of what Jesus preached and did. We shouldn't interpret Jesus in the light of what Paul wrote or did.
2. The evangelists already knew Paul's theology when they wrote the gospels. The gospels and Paul epistles were written, in the earliest estimation, in parallel (Mark) and in the most realistic ones, after Paul. And yet, they recorded no words from Jesus demanding belief in his deity, PSA or physical resurrection as a condition to be forgiven by God.
3. Paul wrote his letters within a narrow period of, say, 20 years, perhaps less. God had been forgiving people for thousands of years, and revealing how He does it. Do you think that Paul changed overnight God's method of salvation? Or was Paul focusing on one aspect of God's salvation that was relevant for the needs of the churches at that time? We will examine that carefully.
4. Why would Jesus spend 3 years preaching about all kind of subjects, and skip the most important one, to reveal it to Paul, EVEN WHEN Jesus had plenty of opportunity to do it in parables and sermons that addressed the topic directly?

So let us drop the whole, "But I don't see the truth in only portion X of the entire Bible."
The Bible is meant to be taken as a WHOLE—ALL Scripture is inspired of God.

I fully agree with you.
So Paul cannot contradict the method that God had revealed for many centuries in the rest of the Bible. Jesus had not given the slightest hint that God would change his method. Paul had a reason to write what he wrote. We will go into it later. For now, it is important to establish what was the background doctrine of salvation within which Paul converted to Christ.