brightfame52
Active Member
I didnt say you was, yet your response fits mode of man in Rom 9:19-20
Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
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Doug Brents
Active Member
Now address the rest of what I said.
brightfame52
Active Member
I already have. I posted earlier that God predetermined the disobedience of Pharoah. All you did is deny it duh
Doug Brents
Active Member
No, you have not addressed Rom 8:29-30, which says that Pharaoh was only "predestined" in the sense that God knew beforehand what Pharaoh was going to choose to do. Pharaoh was not forced to defy God; he chose to.
brightfame52
Active Member
Romans 8:29-30 doesnt say that foolishness you talking about.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Rom 8:29-30 - "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."
Where does it start? Not with predestination, but with God's foreknowledge. He KNEW, and therefore He predestined (because He already knew their choice of Him) them to become conformed to the image of Jesus. How were they predestined? God make the plan to save them through Jesus' blood. If He had known that none would choose Him, as He did about those other than Noah and his sons and their wives (8 in all), He would not have made a plan to save them
brightfame52
Active Member
Nothing to do with God Illustrating with Pharoah how He has created some as vessels of wrath and fits them unto destruction as Rom 9 depicts.
Doug Brents
Active Member
It has everything to do with it. You are reading into Rom 9 what you want to see, instead of reading it through the lens of Scripture (ie: Rom 8:28-29). God doesn't force us to do evil; He doesn't force us to condemn ourselves.
brightfame52
Active Member
No it doesnt. Rom 8 is about the Saints, the Rom 9 narrative is about the reprobate whom God created as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction. Its not based on anything they did as evil, the purpose for them was determined b4 they were born Rom 9:
; 11 (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Doug Brents
Active Member
Rom 8 and 9 are the same discussion. They flow together seamlessly. Every saint was at one time reprobate. Every single person, you and me included, were at one time lost. It is indeed God's mercy alone that has made a way for anyone to be saved (Rom 9:16). But again, He has not forced anyone to sin, nor has He made it impossible for anyone to repent and honor Him. NO ONE is born without the ability to be saved, for God's will is that none should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.
brightfame52
Active Member
lol for that matter Rom 1:1-Rom 16 are the same letter of discussion
brightfame52
Active Member
False, the elect were the vessels of mercy entering into the world, accepted in Christ, but the the non elect goats entered into the world reprobated and hated by God.
Rom 9 shows the two different groups of people made from the same lump of sinful humanity. One group of sinners were made for glory and honor as vessels of mercy, and the other group of sinners were made for wrath and dishonor and shame
Yes, there is a but. I see you didn't bother reading what I said. Terminology. The default condition of man in Adam's sin is destined to hell. God changed those who He chose before the foundation of the world to adopted children, heaven bound, and it is through Christ. He didn't have to (by terminology) predestinate anyone to wrath, because He already set all humanity on that path, and elected some from it. (Before the foundation of the world.) You do understand it is incredibly impossible to translate the eternal to temporal, right, which is how our brains work. (In the temporal.)
And if you read Romans 9, what it says is that the people set themselves up as the vessels of wrath. And God did nothing for them. Again, it is a terminology thing. God made them vessels of wrath, but those vessels of wrath did all the "work" of rejecting God. God setup some (the elect) to honor in making them vessels of honor. It's difficult to explain with the language, and what some of the words actually meant in the original language.
It in no way dismisses election, but it does make one reconsider double predestination.
Yes they were. They would never get there because God chose a time where He would justify them. Again, temporal. Paul said FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. Every last human being. There isn't one who had not fallen short of the glory of God, and been dead in their trespasses and sins. What did Paul say about that? While we were yet dead in our trespasses and sins, Christ died for us, right? Isn't that what Paul said? Weren't we slaves of sins before we were made slaves of righeousness? This is the danger of systematic theology. Someone who is right gets shot down by some dogmatic individual who carries out their cardboard cutout of Calvin and says, but that isn't what Calvin said. (Except it isn't Calvin, but his followers some time after he passed on.)
Please, just use Ephesians 1. You'll get no argument. However, temporally speaking, and Paul was, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, whether you want to believe it or not. The funny thing, is the reason why Paul even used that verse is to show that all Gentiles and Jews are together lost. Jews aren't special and automatically saved for being Jewish. They too are locked in under sin.
They were on their way there. Again, temporally speaking, we have to live it out.
That speaks to our end. It doesn't speak of our road of life. My point is that Jesus came and pointed out the road we should be on.
Yes, but they were in sin. Don't deny it.
brightfame52
Active Member
No its not. God made some people for hell, to be punished justly for their sins. They are called vessels of wrath Rom 9:22
You still aren't tracking. Perhaps if you didn't systematize yourself into a corner?
brightfame52
Active Member
No they werent. They were chosen in Christ before the foundation to be holy and without blame in Love Eph 1:4 Paul said it like this also Rom 9:23
: 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
afore prepared, thats election
brightfame52
Active Member
You still aint understanding, God created some for hell, to be punished for their sins.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
to be punished justly for their sins NO
God purposely made them to be sinners so he could punish them. If he did not make them that way he could not.
Look at it this way.... It is like a bunch of dogs.... Usually most dogs are friendly and loving but when they are trained and bred a certain way they will be vicious and fighters and often need to be put down.
So when people are made to be the evil scum they are born to be by Gods choice, then they will be punished eternally not because of what they did but because it was in God's plans.....
By this time you should have double predestination known inside and out.
brightfame52
Active Member
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