Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[Doug Brents]

Rom 9 22 tells us what God willed, vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction

You are reading that verse as if it said that God did that. But that is what what it says.
"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?"
"What if" does not mean it is so. It simply asks what the result would be if a certain hypothetical situation were true. But it does not mean that the hypothetical situation is real.
You need to read all of Scripture, and take it all into account before you formulate your doctrines. There is so much of Scripture that demonstrates that God did not create some and designate them as condemned arbitrarily. He looked through time, because of His foreknowledge (Rom 8:29), and those who chose Him He predestined to salvation, but those who did not choose Him He predestined to Hell. It is our choice which determines our eternal destiny.

 

[Doug Brents]

You said Christ died for all, judas and antichrist are part of the all

Precisely. We should pray for them. But we know that sometimes God says "NO" to our prayers.

 

[FreeInChrist]

You said Christ died for all, judas and antichrist are part of the all

Christ died for all
Scripture repeatedly affirms the scope of the atonement...“He is the propitiation… for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) ,“God so loved the world…” (John 3:16) , “Christ Jesus… gave Himself as a ransom for all.” (1 Tim 2:5–6) , “He tasted death for everyone.” (Heb 2:9)

That word all doesn’t quietly exclude inconvenient people.

Judas
Jesus explicitly said of Judas; “The Son of Man goes as it is written of Him…” (Matt 26:24)

Judas’ betrayal fulfilled prophecy, but Scripture never says Christ did not die for him. Judas perished because of unbelief and betrayal, not because he was excluded from the atonement.


Antichrist / man of lawlessness
The Antichrist is condemned because he “did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved” (2 Thess 2:10). That wording matters. You cannot reject what was never offered.

So the distinction is this...

Christ’s death is sufficient for all but effective only for those who believe.

That keeps God’s justice , God’s sincerity in offering salvation , and Human responsibility

If someone claims Christ only died for a pre-selected group, then statements like “whoever believes,” “all,” and “world” stop meaning what words mean.

Try to understand this.....

Christ’s atonement is universal in provision, not universal in application..... even Judas and the Antichrist fall under “all,” but are lost by unbelief, not exclusion.

 

[brightfame52]

You are reading that verse as if it said that God did that.

He did do it, just like it was just illustrated with pharoah in the adjoining context

 

[brightfame52]

Precisely. We should pray for them.

Help yourself, you wont be praying according to Gods will

 

[brightfame52]

The reprobate, which are the non elect were born to be taken and destroyed as brute beast. 2 Pet 2:12

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

The word made is the greek word gennaó and means:

I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to. properly, beget (procreate a descendant), produce offspring; (passive) be born, "begotten."

S this was Gods purpose for them to be born Ecc 3:1-2

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:


2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; 10

 

[armylngst]

More deception and you do the math

I don't believe God predestinated anyone to hell-wrath, but... it is going to be terminology and reason. Due to Adam, EVERYONE's default condition is damnation. So everyone is going to hell. However, God, before the foundation of the world, chose to change the destination of some from the default (hell), to adopted children of God with an inheritance in Christ.

So the only reason I say that God did not predestinate some to hell is because that is the default condition of humanity. There are none righteous, no not one, there are none who do good, there are none that seek after God. They have each... gone their own way. Default condition. However, if God has elected you, He will intervene in your wayward ways and draw you to Himself. Without Him, we are incapable of seeking after God. Walk towards Him, sure, why not. It may be part of our chosen way. Actuall seek and head to God... only if He is behind it.

 

[brightfame52]

I don't believe God predestinated anyone to hell-wrath, but

Aint no but, God did predestinate people to hell and wrath. Rom 9 so you dont believe the truth

 

[brightfame52]

Due to Adam, EVERYONE's default condition is damnation. So everyone is going to hell.

False, the elect vessels of mercy were never by default on the way to hell and wrath, they were always afore prepared for glory Rom 9 23

23 ;And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

They were afore prepared unto Glory by His Election of them in Christ before the foundation of the world. So they were never of them that were appointed to wrath/hell 1 Thess 5:9

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So the elect in Adams fall had been afore appointed to Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ having been already chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, b4 the creation and fall of adam

 

[FreeInChrist]

Help yourself, you wont be praying according to Gods will

What an absolutely nasty thing to infer.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Aint no but, God did predestinate people to hell and wrath. Rom 9 so you dont believe the truth

“Thus says John Calvin—the primary systematizer of double predestination, an unapologetic defender of infant baptism, and a committed Trinitarian.”

 

[Doug Brents]

He did do it, just like it was just illustrated with pharoah in the adjoining context

It says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But it also tells us HOW He hardened his heart. Read Exo 14:5. It was through Pharaoh's advisers and servants that God advised Pharaoh, but it was still Pharaoh's choice to defy God. All of the plagues that Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate were duplicated through demonic power, which caused Pharaoh to think less of God's power, which hardened his heart and in turn made him less likely to honor God, but it was still Pharaoh's choice to defy God.

Help yourself, you wont be praying according to Gods will

Thank you for your opinion on that.

 

[civic]

Prophecy is a matter of Gods predestination of what will happen according to His determination

thats the exception not the rule which is what your doctrine is based upon. and many prophecies were God saying if you do this then such and such will happen but if you do not then this other thing will happen. not many prophecies were what you claimed and when they did occur thats the exception not the rule.

 

[civic]

It says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But it also tells us HOW He hardened his heart. Read Exo 14:5. It was through Pharaoh's advisers and servants that God advised Pharaoh, but it was still Pharaoh's choice to defy God. All of the plagues that Pharaoh's magicians were able to duplicate were duplicated through demonic power, which caused Pharaoh to think less of God's power, which hardened his heart and in turn made him less likely to honor God, but it was still Pharaoh's choice to defy God.

Thank you for your opinion on that.

and we also know pharoah hardened his own heart against God and His people.

 

[brightfame52]

It says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. But it also tells us HOW He hardened his heart. Read Exo 14:5.

Right. Pharoah had no other choice but to be accountable for the disobedience God predetermined he would disobey. That's why God is just in destroying him, and all the vessels of wrath. Pharoah cant say he was forced by God to harden his heart

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

thats the exception not the rule

I disagree, prophecy is what God predetermined to happen is the rule

and many prophecies were God saying if you do this then such and such will happen but if you do not then this other thing will happen.

Doesn't matter, prophecy has been predetermined by God, all contingencies are at Gods disposal Prov 16 33

The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.

Prov 19 21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

 

[Doug Brents]

Right. Pharoah had no other choice but to be accountable for the disobedience God predetermined he would disobey.

God didn't predetermine that Pharaoh would disobey. God pushed him in the direction of disobedience so that He could be glorified in the destruction of Egypt. But God was also glorified in Jesus' obedience, so God didn't require Pharaoh's disobedience to be glorified.

That's why God is just in destroying him, and all the vessels of wrath. Pharoah cant say he was forced by God to harden his heart

That is an oxymoron. If God predetermined that Pharaoh would disobey, the God is unjust for punishing him for the sin God caused him to commit. But if Pharaoh had a choice, if God arranged the circumstances so that Pharaoh wanted to rebel against God, but didn't give him no other choice, then God is fully justified in condemning Pharaoh, especially in light of Jesus' success over the same temptations and trials that Pharaoh failed at.

 

[brightfame52]

God didn't predetermine that Pharaoh would disobey.

Yes He did

 

[brightfame52]

If God predetermined that Pharaoh would disobey, the God is unjust for punishing him for the sin God caused him to commit.

That's the natural mans reasoning against God, thats why Paul said this right after talking about pharaoh Rom 9

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So Vs 20 applies to your reasoning friend

 

[Doug Brents]

That's the natural mans reasoning against God, thats why Paul said this right after talking about pharaoh Rom 9

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So Vs 20 applies to your reasoning friend

I am not questioning God's motives, or His ability to do what you say. What I am saying is that He didn't force Pharaoh to do anything. Pharaoh was free to obey God at any time. But God knew before hand that He would not (Rom 8:29-30)(Pharaoh was only "predestined" in the sense that God knew beforehand what Pharaoh was going to choose to do).