brightfame52
Active Member
Its enough
Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Doug Brents
Active Member
If you have not grown in your understanding, then you don't have 50 years of experience. You have one year of experience 50 times, (or maybe one month of experience 600 times). Either way, you haven't grown in those 50 years. You are still stuck in the same trap you were then. Still grinding away at the same empty doctrine.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Bright. You really understand very little of what is said to you. I have been as clear as a bell.
It is by God's foreknowledge, not predestining it to happen that he know which free will people will be receptive to Jesus when they hear about Him. And when we do... then our faith builds.
Dont ask more because i tire of trying to explain it
brightfame52
Active Member
Sounds like to me you writing your own bible
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Same verses as you just interpret them differently
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats what u call it instead of writing your own bible
he predestined the end destiny of all who reject Jesus to save them from their sins
brightfame52
Active Member
Rom 9:18
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
God hardens men's heart unto disobedience for the purpose of destruction !
This is a stated attribute of the One True and Living God that the carnal man can't receive and also blasphemes God for!
Yes man does harden his own heart as stated in Exodus of the pharaoh here Ex 8:32
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
However, that followed suite after God first hardened his heart as stated He would do from the outset Ex 4:21
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
See, f God has purposed to harden one's heart, then that person has no choice but to harden his own heart, because no one can resist His Will.
That's why Paul in writing Rom 9 and borrowing from the exodus narrative about God hardening his heart, he makes no reference to pharaoh hardening his own heart as its stated in Ex 8:32.
Because that's only the byproduct of God by His power hardening pharaoh heart according to His own purpose. 8
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
God hardens men's heart unto disobedience for the purpose of destruction !
This is a stated attribute of the One True and Living God that the carnal man can't receive and also blasphemes God for!
Yes man does harden his own heart as stated in Exodus of the pharaoh here Ex 8:32
And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
However, that followed suite after God first hardened his heart as stated He would do from the outset Ex 4:21
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
See, f God has purposed to harden one's heart, then that person has no choice but to harden his own heart, because no one can resist His Will.
That's why Paul in writing Rom 9 and borrowing from the exodus narrative about God hardening his heart, he makes no reference to pharaoh hardening his own heart as its stated in Ex 8:32.
Because that's only the byproduct of God by His power hardening pharaoh heart according to His own purpose. 8
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Romans 9 does not teach that God creates people for disobedience or destruction. Pharaoh hardened his own heart first, and only then did God judicially harden him ...confirming the path he had already chosen.
That is God confirming a choice already made, not causing sin. Scripture is clear that God is not the author of evil and desires all to be saved. Hardening is God giving rebels over to their own will, not predetermining their unbelief. Otherwise, God would be punishing people for what He Himself caused, which would make Him unjust ... and the Bible never portrays God that way.
Answer this: If God created people with no possibility of salvation, why does He sincerely call all men to repent?
That would make the gospel invitation insincere. “Whosoever will may come.”
A real invitation requires a real choice = free will every time.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes it does !
brightfame52
Active Member
He doesnt call to repentance the vessels of wrath He created for destruction, He calls the elect vessels of mercy to repentance and causes them to repent, because He gives them repentance Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
civic
Active Member
Nope
brightfame52
Active Member
Did Jesus call these folks to repentance? Matt 13 32-33Nope
32 ;Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Fill ye up plēroō in the greek is an imperative, He is commanding them to continue in unbelief and fill up the measure of decreed damnation. They have no possibility of escaping it, its predetermined.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
If Romans 9 really meant God creates certain people only to destroy them and then irresistibly forces the “elect” to repent and believe, then the whole process makes no sense.
Why all the extra steps?
According to your view...
God chooses them
then makes them repent
then makes them believe
then saves them
If He is already determining everything irresistibly, why not just create them saved from the start?
Why command repentance at all?
Why preach the gospel?
Why warn people?
Why grieve over sin?
It turns people into robots acting out a script God programmed.
But the Bible never presents repentance and faith as something God forces. They are consistently commanded responses (Acts 17:30, Mark 1:15, Ezekiel 18:30–32). Commands only make sense if a real response is possible.
Acts 5:31 doesn’t say God forces repentance. “Give repentance” means He provides the opportunity and means... like light being given to blind people ...not coercion.
Otherwise every warning, plea, and invitation in Scripture becomes meaningless theater.
And Romans 9 itself never says God creates people to sin. It says He endures with much longsuffering vessels of wrath (v.22). You don’t “endure” what you caused irresistibly. Endurance implies patience with their own rebellion.
So the issue isn’t “God makes some repent.” It’s “God mercifully calls and enables all, but only some respond.”
That preserves both God’s sovereignty and real human responsibility
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Correction, wrong passage
Those words are not Matthew 13:32–33.They are Matthew 23:32–33.
That matters because Matthew 23 is not about predestination or election — it’s a prophetic rebuke (a “woe” oracle) against the Pharisees.
So the whole context is judgment language, not a theological statement about God decreeing unbelief.
Just a few verses later Jesus says:
Matthew 23:37
“How often I wanted to gather your children together… but you were not willing.”
This alone overturns the Calvinistic/predestined reading.
Notice:
Jesus wanted them. They refused.
Not: “I decreed you to be damned.”
But: “You would not.”
The problem wasn’t predestination — it was their will.
The blame is on them, not on God.
brightfame52
Active Member
Who said anything about being forced to repent ? Christ gives repentance to the elect Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
It doesnt say Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to force repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes I thought i corrected that. But Christ is giving them a imperative Matt 23:32
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
No repentance would be given them, their doom is certain, they are the seed of the serpent Matt 23 33
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
brightfame52
Active Member
Prophecy is a matter of Gods predestination of what will happen according to His determination
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Christ gives repentance to the elect. What if they do not want to repent?
He had to be sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Matt 15:25 But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
They are the chosen ones.... the ones who did not accept God's words before Jesus came so he had to come and had to give repentance....
How exactly do you give someone repentance unless you are instrumental in them turning from their wicked ways.... or doing it for them.... a form of forcing those who really did not want to...., eh?
And where do you read this was for the elect or are you assuming they are because God chose them in the beginning.
But even at that they did not all follow because Jesus had to be sent. (free-will in them)
Romans 11:17
Broken off (11:17)
Many Jews were rejected from the covenant blessings because of their disobedience. This state exists until today. It does not speak of the whole nation as can be seen from the word 'some' (see also 11:1).
Their disobedience was from free-will
That opened the path to us
Grafted in (1:17)
Some object to the possibility of grafting a wild olive onto a cultivated olive tree. But they in fact do this. As a result two things happen. First, the wild branch begins to produce good olives. Secondly, the old tree is newly invigorated. This speaks of Israel's renewed interest in Jesus Christ. This root is clearly referred to in Romans 9:1-5.
Broken off (11:19)
We can see that Paul accepts a greater plan for the whole. Branches are not broken off with no reason or purpose. In God's economy, all things work together for His greater purpose. This connection between the Jews' rejection and the Gentiles' acceptance is seen in verses 11-14.
By your faith (11:20)
In the spirit of chapters 3 and 4 Paul again affirms that we only belong to the community of God by faith. Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles belong without faith; they both belong because they have faith.
In the spirit of chapters 3 and 4 Paul again affirms that we only belong to the community of God by faith. Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles belong without faith; they both belong because they have faith.
There is not a word about predestination here.... IT IS ALL BY FAITH. PERIOD
You have succeeded in proving your chosen verse is not about the elect at all... it is about Israel
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