Did God, forsake Jesus on the cross?

[synergy]

God did forsake Christ... On the cross...

Jesus says so... I don't understand how you guys continue to suggest not.

God does not forget his promises, nor does he forget his Son, he raises him back up...

God on the cross did forsake the son, leaving him there... to die, because God in Christ, could not indwell sin...

I do not understand how people are not understanding the logical conclusions which are being shared.


Isaiah 54:7 7“For a brief moment I forsook you, but with great compassion I will bring you back.

Can anyone please, @synergy, @civic, @Bubba, tell me where God can indwell sin, and how do you explain Jesus dying?

Since Jesus is God then however Jesus ontologically handles sin then that's how God ontologically handles sin.

While He fulfills what is stated in Psalm 22:1 - it's has to be a fulfilment - a doing - an action. If you look at how the word forsaken is used, it's an active thing, which God is doing, moving out of the Lord Jesus - as the Christ in him, leaves... What is so confusing about this?

Because there is no evidence of the abandonment ever actually happening. Sure, Jesus cried the words of David but where's the evidence that the abandonment actually did happen? And if the abandonment did happen, then our reconciliation is now called into question. Massive problem here.

 

[MatthewG]

I wonder if a lot of people who may or may not accept the trinity, if the concept of that has some how withheld some understanding concerning the Father, whom is God, and the Lord Jesus, whom is the Word of God made flesh. I do not believe in those concepts and have far removed them from my mind, but would be curious to know if any of you would like to share with me.

Everyone is entitled to what they are going to accept, be it traditions of man, that has been handed down over time, or just accept what is true, and seeking God in spirit and in truth, to see what is going on concerning matters pertaining to the bible itself, but not only this, to see and check where you yourself are intuned with the God whom indwells you by the holy spirit which is given, to those whom are justified in faith of the Lord Jesus, who makes people right with God, and Jesus is our wisdom, sanctification, redemption, and of course Lord whom is the one a person chooses to serve Yahavah, having fellowship with the Father, and with the Son.

 

[MatthewG]

Since Jesus is God then however Jesus ontologically handles sin then that's how God ontologically handles sin.

My wondering is if this whole "trinity" concept has something to do with blocking things from people being able to really see what is going on or not. I do not believe in the trinity, and the whole wrote "Jesus is God", is a misnomer to the fact that Jesus is the "Word of God", and revealed later as the beloved son, after resurrection, "Begotten Son," and then a revelation is given to Jesus which is goes forth to give to John by a messenger, revealed in Revelation 3 - 4, is that after all things have been placed beneath the feet of Jesus, that Jesus would give everything back to his Father, and that God would be all in all, and in Revelation 4, you can see this all and all happening with Jesus now no longer sitting at the right hand of God, but now in the seat with his Father as the "Lord God Almighty," which is only used once in scripture if I remember correctly.

The only sin that remains today, is unbelief, it keeps people from entering God's rest, Jesus was becoming the sacrifice for sin. Christ was in the Lord Jesus. Then you have of course, Jesus crying out to the God that we serve today, too, which had forsook him on the cross. Christ in him left, and therefore the Lord is crying out to his God, he is not saying Father anymore. There is a separation just like God and the sin that came into the garden. God removed Adam and eve from it. The same merit and picture goes for the Lord Jesus here. Unless it is just a distorted picture that is wrong, always test all things and hold on to that which is good.

Because there is no evidence of the abandonment ever actually happening. Sure, Jesus cried the words of David but where's the evidence that the abandonment actually did happen? And if the abandonment did happen, then our reconciliation is now called into question. Massive problem here.

God was in Christ, all the way up to the point of death. Fulfilling the covenant made prior by God himself, and also the Covenant of Israel by and through the directing of the Law of Moses. You have Jesus crying out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me (left me behind here)?" There has to be some merit to what Jesus is saying here, because I believe what Jesus says is important. And because of this moving out which I see here, which was for a moment of time, for a purpose, and for the ability to have sin reconciled, by the death of Jesus, which the Christ in him left, him on the Cross to die, and suffer on the cross alone, (though in the heart of Jesus, he continued to have faith, love for Yahavah, his Father, God, and hope that his Father would indeed come through with his promises which have been spoken of long before in the Old Testament. Which God would raise his son up again, from the dead, after three days of burial.


There is no problem with what has been done, by and through the body of Jesus, which took upon sin for the world, having christ leave him, dying for the world and for the Father in order to restore all things back to the way they were prior like in the Garden of Eden. Today it is that day, people either choose to eat from the Tree of Life, or the choose to eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good, and of Evil. God has restored everything, he left Jesus though, in order for Jesus to be able to be successful in this mission of restoration which was lost in the Garden. Where man and God are able to connect, but not by and through religious things, or religious traditions, or religious authroity.

Yahavah, the Father, has made it possible and calls out to all people daily, by the bride and the spirit... I do not see any problem which you are seeing.

 

[MatthewG]

Another sidenote, is with Jesus being raised again by the Holy Spirit of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, was restored back to his prior state. Why? Because Jesus, willingly giving up his life (note that - it was Jesus who willingly gave up his life in order for his body to take on sin.) Having never sinned, facing the wages of sin which was death, willingly on his own behalf - mertied the blood which now is precious and covered and cleanses those who also die with Christ, and the become buried with him, and then become raised with him in newness of life, by the holy spirit which is given to you as a believer.

Just something else on the top of my head which I just had said it. Jesus willingly gave up his own life, in order for new life to be born. And because of him never having sinned, though paying for sin, he was restored back to life, which pleased the Father, and reconciliation is made for all.

Thank you to anyone whom has came by, and check out the article. Hope it has been helpful and useful to anyone who has that curious question, Did God forsake Jesus on the cross?

 

[Bubba]

Isaiah 54:7 7“For a brief moment I forsook you, but with great compassion I will bring you back.

What is so confusing about this?

It's not confusing it's about Israel. Not Jesus.

“Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more. For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called. For Jehovah hath called thee as a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even a wife of youth, when she is cast off, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In overflowing wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting lovingkindness will I have mercy on thee, saith Jehovah the Redeemer.” Isaiah 54:1-17

 

[MatthewG]

It's not confusing it's about Israel. Not Jesus.

“Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth; and the reproach of thy widowhood shalt thou remember no more. For thy Maker is thy husband; Jehovah of hosts is his name: and the Holy One of Israel is thy Redeemer; the God of the whole earth shall he be called. For Jehovah hath called thee as a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, even a wife of youth, when she is cast off, saith thy God. For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In overflowing wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting lovingkindness will I have mercy on thee, saith Jehovah the Redeemer.” Isaiah 54:1-17

@Bubba,

Thank you, for the correction. If that is the case, with God forsaking, Israel, here for a moment. Is it not possible for God to have forsaken, his Son, on the cross? Considering that Christ within the Lord Jesus, which was Yahavah, God. Could not indwell sin, is not possible for God to have (left his son there on the cross) to suffer and pay for the sins of the world, because of his will was to be done, and not Jesus. Jesus constantly prayed, saying that his Fathers will be done. Do you find Jesus words important when it comes to him saying "My God, My God, why have thou forsaken me?" Because you told me earlier that God did not forsake his son? How is that possible when Jesus is stating that God has forsaken him? Can you explain how you would teach or tell it to someone who did not understand or came across it for the first time?

 

[MatthewG]

Some think that God leaving his Son, is humanistically (however that word is spelled humanism?), appalling. Let alone, God being pleased in crushing his Son, for the sake of the whole world, but the son of course was 100% willingly to God's will and not his own. It must be weird to think of God in these terms, but it something he did, and somethings we just cant argue against when it comes down to it. It is either true, or it is not true. It's amazing what God has done for the whole entire world though because of the Lord Yeshua.


It's weird to remember that Abraham was told to go and offer up his own son. And he went and did it knowing in faith he would come back with his son, and the sacrifice there was seen for the future being the Lord Yeshua.

 

[Bubba]

@Bubba,

Thank you, for the correction. If that is the case, with God forsaking, Israel, here for a moment. Is it not possible for God to have forsaken, his Son, on the cross? Considering that Christ within the Lord Jesus, which was Yahavah, God. Could not indwell sin, is not possible for God to have (left his son there on the cross) to suffer and pay for the sins of the world, because of his will was to be done, and not Jesus. Jesus constantly prayed, saying that his Fathers will be done. Do you find Jesus words important when it comes to him saying "My God, My God, why have thou forsaken me?" Because you told me earlier that God did not forsake his son? How is that possible when Jesus is stating that God has forsaken him? Can you explain how you would teach or tell it to someone who did not understand or came across it for the first time?

I did that already...

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/did-god-forsake-jesus-on-the-cross.1567/post-69856

 

[Complete]

'My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?
why art thou so far from helping Me,
and from the words of My roaring?
(Psa. 22:1)

'And about the ninth hour
Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
that is to say,
My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?
(Mat.27:46)

'And at the ninth hour
Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?
which is, being interpreted,
My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?
(Mar.15:34)

Hello @MatthewG,

Psalms 22, 23 & 24 relate to the suffering and the glory of 'The Man, Christ Jesus.' The psalm is Christ's prayer and plea on the cross. It begins with, 'My God, My God' and ends with, 'It is finished' and is related to Christ as the sin offering . The word, 'God' in Psa. 22:1 is the Hebrew, 'El', which relates to God as Almighty in relation to the creature; not Jehovah in covenant relation with His servant. It is a lamentation (a 'roaring').

The words of the Psalm and it's quotation in Matthew and Mark's gospel, must be viewed in the light of the above. It was as, 'The Man, Christ Jesus' that He was nailed to the cross, it was in the light of that title that it was said, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou Forsaken Me.' and it was God, as 'Almighty' (in relation to the creature) to Whom, 'The Man Christ Jesus', made this prayer, this plea.

* I see this as through a glass darkly, not fully understanding, or appreciating it's import, but I do think it is 'important' in regard to our interpretation and understanding of the words under review in this thread. For I believe the titles of Christ and of God used in Scripture are used with purpose, and should be taken into consideration.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref: 'The Companion Bible'

 

[Bubba]

The point is Jesus is God. At the cross he was fully God and fully human. His human side may have felt abandoned or forsaken till he realized he wasn't. The father was with him the whole time. Also Christ was the Lamb of God as He hung on the cross, if God had forsaken Him that would mean that God did not accept the Sacrifice.

 

[Obadiah]

The point is Jesus is God. At the cross he was fully God and fully human. His human side may have felt abandoned or forsaken till he realized he wasn't. The father was with him the whole time. Also Christ was the Lamb of God as He hung on the cross, if God had forsaken Him that would mean that God did not accept the Sacrifice.

Right on! If you want to understand Psalm 22 you have to read the end.

 

[civic]

Right on! If you want to understand Psalm 22 you have to read the end.

Thanks I’ll checkout the video after work

 

[Aeliana]

Thanks I’ll checkout the video after work

It's worth watching and it's very short.

 

[MatthewG]

The point is Jesus is God.

That is just common rhetoric. "Jesus is God." You really just side set all my questions.

At the across he was fully God and fully human.

No, he was not. Jesus did not know everything.

His human side may have felt abandoned or forsaken till he realized he wasn't.

That is not true, again continually people assert, that Jesus "felt" like that. It was an actual happening, but if you decide differently by all means, it's whatever you are going to decide anyway.

The father was with him the whole time.

How do we know that God was in Christ?

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Also Christ was the Lamb of God as He hung on the cross,

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 He is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me.’ 31 I did not recognize him as the Messiah, but I have been baptizing with water so that he might be revealed to Israel.”
32 Then John testified, “I saw the Holy Spirit descending like a dove from heaven and resting upon him. 33 I didn’t know he was the one, but when God sent me to baptize with water, he told me, ‘The one on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One of God.[a]”


I do not believe you are understanding that "Christ within the Lord Jesus, left him on the cross." God forsake him, on the cross. Why else is Jesus saying "My God, My God, why have you forsken me?" Many people continue to say that he was not forsaken... how can you say that? He is stating it right there, as a question, left alone on the cross, suffering the wages of sins which was death.

People do not take time to imagine the love that Jesus still had, even though he was left alone, by himself, dying on the cross. He had no problems with it, however it was the first time, since being on earth that Jesus was separated for a moment of time, going on to Sheol, and visitng with those people, still very well being the "Word of God," which also left the Lord Jesus on the cross, and was I believe his soul (heart), and I believe that even while Jesus was left alone suffering on the cross for the whole world, and for the Father in heaven to reconcile everything back to the way it way contiuned to believe, have hope, faith, and love for Yahavah, and for all of mankind. That separation must have hurt a lot, however in the heart of the Lord Jesus, he continued to hope and seek for the greater good, rather than establishing a kingdom on earth.

if God had forsaken Him that would mean that God did not accept the Sacrifice.

No. That is not true. The reason, had to be leaving that body, was because of Sin itself. It was accepted as the sacrifice, because Yahavah, rose up the Word of God, Lord Yeshua, back to life with his Holy Spirit.

 

[MatthewG]

Right on! If you want to understand Psalm 22 you have to read the end.

​

​

22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

 

[Bubba]

That is just common rhetoric. "Jesus is God." You really just side set all my questions.

No, he was not. Jesus did not know everything.

Passages such as Philippians 2:6-8 make clear the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ, “who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

 

[MatthewG]

'My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?
why art thou so far from helping Me,
and from the words of My roaring?
(Psa. 22:1)

'And about the ninth hour
Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
that is to say,
My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?
(Mat.27:46)

'And at the ninth hour
Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,
Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?
which is, being interpreted,
My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?
(Mar.15:34)

Hello @MatthewG,

Psalms 22, 23 & 24 relate to the suffering and the glory of 'The Man, Christ Jesus.' The psalm is Christ's prayer and plea on the cross. It begins with, 'My God, My God' and ends with, 'It is finished' and is related to Christ as the sin offering . The word, 'God' in Psa. 22:1 is the Hebrew, 'El', which relates to God as Almighty in relation to the creature; not Jehovah in covenant relation with His servant. It is a lamentation (a 'roaring').

The words of the Psalm and it's quotation in Matthew and Mark's gospel, must be viewed in the light of the above. It was as, 'The Man, Christ Jesus' that He was nailed to the cross, it was in the light of that title that it was said, 'My God, My God, why hast Thou Forsaken Me.' and it was God, as 'Almighty' (in relation to the creature) to Whom, 'The Man Christ Jesus', made this prayer, this plea.

* I see this as through a glass darkly, not fully understanding, or appreciating it's import, but I do think it is 'important' in regard to our interpretation and understanding of the words under review in this thread. For I believe the titles of Christ and of God used in Scripture are used with purpose, and should be taken into consideration.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ref: 'The Companion Bible'

Hello Chris,

Strong's Concordance
el: God, in pl. gods
Original Word: אֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: el
Phonetic Spelling: (ale)
Definition: God, in pl. gods
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
God, in pl. gods
NASB Translation
El-berith* (1), God (204), god (16), God's (2), gods (3), helpless* (1), mighty (3), Mighty One (3), power (1), strong (1).




The Father, or as people say God, his name is Yahavah, Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah. I see that you present here, that we should notice that when Jesus says "My God, My God' that is El, or related to Almighty. Okay, Yeshua is calling out to the Father, Yahavah, Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah. That is God's name. What is it exactly are you wanting to talk about ?

 

[Bubba]

​

​

22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

8 He trusted on the Lord that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

There it is.

 

[MatthewG]

Passages such as Philippians 2:6-8 make clear the full deity and full humanity of Jesus Christ, “who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, He humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

Jesus was not God though. By his human nature, he was not God. Yes, the full deity resides in Jesus, within his flesh being the Word of Yahavah, having the Holy Spirit of Yahavah with him, and that overall was God in Christ, known as the Lord Jesus. He was in the form of God, but he did not count eqaulity with God a thing to be grasped. But Jesus emptied himself, having taken on the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men, and being found in human form, he humbled himself by become obedient to the point of death, on a cross.


Jesus is the Word of God. Jesus is not Yahavah.

 

[Bubba]

Hello Chris,

Strong's Concordance
el: God, in pl. gods
Original Word: אֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: el
Phonetic Spelling: (ale)
Definition: God, in pl. gods
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. root
Definition
God, in pl. gods
NASB Translation
El-berith* (1), God (204), god (16), God's (2), gods (3), helpless* (1), mighty (3), Mighty One (3), power (1), strong (1).




The Father, or as people say God, his name is Yahavah, Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah. I see that you present here, that we should notice that when Jesus says "My God, My God' that is El, or related to Almighty. Okay, Yeshua is calling out to the Father, Yahavah, Yahweh, Yehovah, Jehovah. That is God's name. What is it exactly are you wanting to talk about ?

Jesus is quoting the 22 psalm of David